Could Frontier please demonstrate how to use the FSS enjoyably?

[-VR- Max Factor]

No, I mean the times when you complain about how people in general are attacking you, not specific ones.

I have done so a few times. It is normally because of unprovroked attacks on me because I have a different opinion. Some people seem to have an issue with that.

Factually incorrect.
The ADS honk revealed the system map, the visuals and hierarchy of the system, but no body information until you flew there and scan them. You only knew the hierarchy of the system, and the visuals of the planets, from the honk alone.

There is nothing factually incorrect about it. It discovered every planet/moon in the system. I never once mentioned all the body information. But it does provide some never the less.

The FSS honk reveals the exact body types in the system, gives you more credits, and automatic tags on stars.

Never denied that. Not to sure what that has to do with the description of the ADS? But even so the ADS also reveals the exact body types and number in a system.

You also don't need to fly to get all the body information on a planet, plus the same credits as before, plus the tag for which you used to have to fly.
If you also play the DSS, you get even more credits, a second tag, and if there are any POIs down on the planets, all their exact locations.

Again, I never said you did and I am struggling to find this relevant with regards to how the ADS works.

If you explore for credits, tags and ELWs, the FSS is better for you.

That is a matter of opinion. Again I fail to understand the relevance of this with regards to descirbing how the ADS worked.

The developers even said on a stream that it was designed for this.

No they didn't. Again I fail to understand the relevance of this with regards to descirbing how the ADS worked.

If you explore for the rarest finds that the Stellar Forge has to offer, the FSS is worse for you.

That is a matter of opinion. Again I fail to understand the relevance of this with regards to descirbing how the ADS worked.

 

[askavir]

volcanics

The implementation of volcanism is kind of a small-scale mirror of EDs development.

FD sets out to implement volcanism. People dream about lava rivers, eruptions, big menacing rock and ash cones, but hope at least for seeing some volcanos, and then FD delivers... fumaroles

Always the minimum, most uninspired possible effort required to tick a box in a list and move on.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

If you explore for credits, tags and ELWs, the FSS is better for you. The developers even said on a stream that it was designed for this.
If you explore for the rarest finds that the Stellar Forge has to offer, the FSS is worse for you.

Pretty sure I can’t see how that could be the case. You still get all the same information, just in a different way. The system map is still there too, it just takes an entire minute longer to fill it out. All the stellar bodies are still there too, to be flown to and screen-shotted and stared at, just as before, again just in a different way.

 

[marx]

The thing with the FSS is that people explored for years. Some stars were easy but others were far away. If you wanted the cudos or what ever personal reward from that tag you went and got it. It took effort and dedication and over night that was all wiped away. Star too far? No problem. Too difficult gettign tags? No problem just implement a second tagging system "first mapped" let those noobs write all over somebody elses hard work. They betrayed something i cant quite define and dumped all over the people who accepted the game for what it was and wernt complaining about travel times or whatever. To me personally it was the difference between a galaxy sandbox and a 7+ console game.

It's part of the dumbing down of the game that has been going on in other aspects as well.

For example. There is a problem with interstellar travel: it's boring and monotonous. In a nutshell: JJJJJJJJJ. Both before and after the FSS, this remains the chief complaint about exploration. So, how did Frontier attempt to solve this so far? By inflating jump ranges. Before Engineers, the best we could do was 40 ly, on a stripped-down Anaconda. That was pretty good, because navigating the sparse areas was an engaging challenge, especially when synthesized boosts came along. The galaxy had structure.
Nowadays, with top jump ranges having been inflated to nearly twice that, you can power through all areas of the galaxy. Navigation isn't a challenge, and the structure of the galaxy is more of a disc where you slow down a bit in some areas.
In short, the solution had unintended downsides.

Same goes for the FSS, really. Exploration does need new gameplay, but probably one with more interactions. Instead, we got a non-mechanic replaced with a simple mechanic, which introduced no new mechanics.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Always the minimum, most uninspired possible effort required to tick a box in a list and move on.

That's not strictly true - the GalMap has a bunch of bonus features:
Constellations
The search feature and catalogue stars
Realistic view

It's mostly the later stuff that is barebones - I'm looking at you, Orrery view.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

At least where I am, Brasso is a brand of cleanser/scouring powder, generally used to restore shine to metal items, such a copper cookware, stainless steel counter tops and range tops, or cleaning tin ceilings and/or backsplashes.

That what I thought it was. Not too sure what he is on about then.

I suspect he’s talking about when you scan an atmospheric world and it does not populate the atmospheric data in the FSS closeup until you zoom out and back in. It has been reported, it just hasn’t been upvoted enough yet I suppose.

Ahh, I never really noticed it. I am not that bothered about atmospheric planet finer details as I can't land on them anyway.

In great enough quantities any data becomes a blur. Politicians count on this when campaigning. It’s why they talk so much yet say so little.

Very true about Politicians. But as to whether the quantitiy becomes a blur or not is surely down to the individual.

So there I was, sailing along in my longship, following my sun stone, far from the places of my ancestors, when on the horizon, I saw the dark line of land rising from the waters. I checked my charts, and this land wan not marked upon it. I looked at the sun, and the moon, and all the references I could find, and carefully recorded this newly discovered mass of land. We would not make landfall here though. I would report back to leader, the great Erik, who would return to my New Found Land, and scour this place as a possible settlement for he and his son, Lief.

First Discovered and First Mapped are indeed quite different, and tagged accordingly. Yes, it is ‘easier’ now to discover a thing, but being first to map it means you have gotten close enough to see the details. Arguing about this is the real nonsense.[/QUOTE]
Yup exactly. You discovered it first. Then great Erik the leader returns to map it. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. That is how I see the new tags. The old way you discovered them but got no tag for them until you got close enough to them. Didn't really make any sense to me.

Yep, not to mention more accurate visuals. Some times the zoomed display and the real thing differ pretty well.

This is true.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

The implementation of volcanism is kind of a small-scale mirror of EDs development.

FD sets out to implement volcanism. People dream about lava rivers, eruptions, big menacing rock and ash cones, but hope at least for seeing some volcanos, and then FD delivers... fumaroles

Always the minimum, most uninspired possible effort required to tick a box in a list and move on.

That I don't deny.

 

[Burke]

It's part of the dumbing down of the game that has been going on in other aspects as well.

Despite appearances i do understand that people were moaning about travel times. The problem is that those people were wrong and frontier, being professional game designers, should have known this. People are always moaning about all kinds of stuff in computer games. 99% of the time they just get ignored. If you want small travel times stay out of space...

Unless it really is just about grabbing those last few sales...

 

[Hanerib]

Do you think this thread would benefit from having its own soundtrack? I'm thinking about some gloomy new wave with catchy tunes, a bit minimalistic, accompanied by some italo-disco, and then carefully selected japanese pop songs from the 80's.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Good to see the same names with the same arguments busy beating the same dead horse.
I'll drop by again in a month to see if anything new and exciting develops. /s

 

[marx]

Pretty sure I can’t see how that could be the case. You still get all the same information, just in a different way. The system map is still there too, it just takes an entire minute longer to fill it out. All the stellar bodies are still there too, to be flown to and screen-shotted and stared at, just as before, again just in a different way.

This has been explained several times before. If you're looking for the rare stuff, you have to scan entire systems now, or risk missing them. It takes longer than a minute to do this. That might not sound like much to you, but there are examples where you have to go tens of thousands of systems to find something.

For a good example. Here is the system map for M36 Sector RI-T c3-5, listed on the GMP as "Five Emperors". It's an extremely rare configuration, and I've been in 50,000 systems before finding one.

One glance and I immediately knew I found something special.

Now, courtesy of Spaceman Si, here's how the system's FSS graph looks:

You can no longer see at a glance that you found something interesting. Just your usual bunch of HMCP / Rocky / Icy planets. This find would easily go missed now, since it looks the same as most other systems do.

For another good example: GGGs. Earlier, you could glance at the system map and immediately notice them from the visuals. Now, you have to scan every gas giant in a system, as they don't show up on the FSS barcode as different.

These are just two examples of relevant information we used to have being hidden behind having to scan everything. The point has often been summed up as such: in order to be able to decide whether a system might be worth looking at in detail, now you have to scan all the bodies first.

Glancing at a system to determine whether it might be worth exploring took about one minute per system at worst. (Jump in, refuel, honk, system map.) Now, if you take that to, let's be optimistic, four minutes on average, then those 50,000 minutes turn into 200,000 minutes.
Theoretically possible? Sure. Practically possible to spend so much time playing the FSS mini-game? Hardly. People burn out on completionist scanning much quicker than that, and it's definitely not the most common usage of it. (Some data: these days, people scan an average of 4 bodies per system, while the average is somewhere around 12 bodies per system.)


Moving on to Max Factor...
Why do you take apart every post line to line? People generally use that with the aim of killing discussion. Especially when you copy-paste "responses" to them.
You claim that the ADS discovered things, but it didn't. If you honked and didn't scan, you got no information, no tags, and nobody else was the wiser to what you might have found. That's not discovery, that's a first glance. No "first discovered by" tags either.
Or, by using your argument, honking the FSS also discovers everything, since it tells you what's in the system. So, tell me, what is your definition of discovery?

As for you making an argument that some facts are opinions...

Fact: you earn the same amount of credits with just the FSS than you did before with an ADS+DSS scan. Same credits, shorter time. Also fact: you earn more credits with the FSS+DSS scans in the same amount of time, since it still involves flying. Therefore, it is better for credits.
Fact: you can earn the same tags faster with the FSS than before, since you can do it from any distance. You even get some automatically now. Therefore, it is better for tags.
Fact: you can recognize body types more certainly with the FSS than before. It's also faster, since earlier you had to listen to planet sounds on the system map to be almost certain, while now, the FSS barcode tells you with complete certainty what there is in the system. Therefore, it is better for ELWs and other body types.

Do prove me wrong on any of these please, if you can.

The developer comment: "You're right, the [FSS graph] system is learnable, but what, what we're jokingly trying to kind of get across is that very quickly you can jump into a system, perform the pulse scan, look at that bar and say "there's nothing there that I want", there's no Earth-likes, there's no whatever you're looking for, and get back out again."
Video is here, time is around 53:03.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

This has been explained several times before. If you're looking for the rare stuff, you have to scan entire systems now, or risk missing them. It takes longer than a minute to do this. That might not sound like much to you, but there are examples where you have to go tens of thousands of systems to find something.

For a good example. Here is the system map for M36 Sector RI-T c3-5, listed on the GMP as "Five Emperors". It's an extremely rare configuration, and I've been in 50,000 systems before finding one.

The rarity of a system configuration is unrelated to the methods used to scan it. These are no more or less rare than they have been. It is also very hard to tell what I’m looking at as your screenshots are both very small and very dark, but it looks like this might just be 13 planetary bodies orbiting one star on two separate orbital plains.

13 bodies should take roughly 1 minute, 11 seconds to FSS with minimal dexterity. After that, you open the system map and go either “Ooh, an unusual formation.” or “Aww, I’ve already seen 49,998 of these. One of the next two has to be it.”

I have no idea what a GMP is, I’ve never heard of it.

At the end of the day neither of us will convince the other that either of us are more “right” about our perspectives. All I can say is that I tried really hard to be an old-style Explorer and I completely hated the experience so much I refused to do it. The changes made have transformed the experience for me so much I have circumnavigated about 25% of the galaxy and I’m still going, still discovering new things, still looking forward to the next 486 jumps that will take me into the next sector, and the 592 jumps it will take to cross that one into the following, and beyond.

 

[marx]

It is also very hard to tell what I’m looking at as your screenshots are both very small and very dark

Erm, I guess you aren't used to thumbnails. You can click them to see the original, large picture. It's so that they don't clutter up posts, and are more mobile-friendly.

I have no idea what a GMP is, I’ve never heard of it.

The Galactic Mapping Project. See here, and here. As someone new to exploration, you should find some excellent things to visit there.

At the end of the day neither of us will convince the other that either of us are more “right” about our perspectives.

Well, you said you don't understand how the FSS is worse for finding the rarest finds. I explained it to you. Regardless of your opinion, at least you should now be better able to understand the argument - if you wish to.
Sure, the rarity remains the same, as the galaxy hasn't changed. However, to find these, you'd now need to spend much more time playing a rather simple mini-game to completion, over and over and over again. Which is worse than what we had before, hence why I said that the FSS is worse in this regard.

Oh, and in case you can't tell from the system map: those are five bodies that orbit shared barycenters, in a rather complex dance. Far, far more rare than "13 planetary bodies orbiting one star on two separate orbital plains". You can see the orrery views of them by clicking these thumbnails:

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Good to see the same names with the same arguments busy beating the same dead horse.
I'll drop by again in a month to see if anything new and exciting develops. /s

Can you give us a heads-up a day or two in advance?
It takes a little while to get the thread back up to boiling point, and we don't want you to miss out on the fun.

 

[Burke]

While im here...Still cant see any reason the only way had to be taken out. How many months has it been now? We could have had this time enjoying the ADS.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Erm, I guess you aren't used to thumbnails. You can click them to see the original, large picture. It's so that they don't clutter up posts, and are more mobile-friendly.

Nope, I’m familiar with thumbnails, but these are still quite small and dark to me, though I am on an iPhone XR, so there is that.

The Galactic Mapping Project. See here, and here. As someone new to exploration, you should find some excellent things to visit there

Ok, neat, but I prefer to do my own aimless wandering, not go where others have been countless times to see something they thought was neat, but I appreciate the information and links all the same!

Well, you said you don't understand how the FSS is worse for finding the rarest finds. I explained it to you. Regardless of your opinion, at least you should now be better able to understand the argument - if you wish to.
Sure, the rarity remains the same, as the galaxy hasn't changed. However, to find these, you'd now need to spend much more time playing a rather simple mini-game to completion, over and over and over again. Which is worse than what we had before, hence why I said that the FSS is worse in this regard.

Worse for you, infinitely better for me. I’m all too glad to trade off the “repetitive mini game”, or what I call “something to do”, for hours of flying back and forth to find out that planet that looked interesting on the map is a featureless ball of ice with an argon atmosphere I can’t even land on anyways. This will be the part of these neither of us will ever convince the other that we’re “right” about, so there’s no point in trying. What’s right for you is right for you. What’s right for me is right for me.

Oh, and in case you can't tell from the system map: those are five bodies that orbit shared barycenters, in a rather complex dance. Far, far more rare than "13 planetary bodies orbiting one star on two separate orbital plains". You can see the orrery views of them by clicking these thumbnails:

I never use the orrery. It’s completely worthless to me. I looked at it during the beta to ensured that it worked. I don’t even remember where it is now. And I’m not even as aspiring junior astronomer, so I don’t know what, exactly, a barycenter even is. I only ever went to the planetarium so I could sneak out and make out with my girlfriend at the time. And it’s not because I don’t like space stuff - I do. I just don’t spend my time engrossed in terminology or any serious study of it. I might be able to name three constellations looking up at the night sky. But that’s enough for me - I derive all the joy I require from that.

 

[marx]

While im here...Still cant see any reason the only way had to be taken out. How many months has it been now? We could have had this time enjoying the ADS.

Did anyone even really enjoy the ADS, or did they enjoy a better flow while exploring instead? It was at best a placeholder mechanic that didn't really get in the way. Now, the FSS does get in the way more and breaks things up, even visually. You go from seeing everything the way they were, which used to be the case for the system map too, to often switching from the real visuals to one with a blue overlay on top of it, with a grid and even cascading effects.

It would be great if we could optionally turn those off, by the way, as it even strains the eyes and induces headaches in some people. For me, it's just an issue of aesthetics, but for some, it's an accessibility issue as well.

 

[Burke]

I think i would have enjoyed it if i had known what the alternative was

 

[Enderby]

I think i would have enjoyed it if i had known what the alternative was

Damn right.

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

FWIW, I don’t mind the FSS, it could be improved. As many have suggested, just tell me if POI’s exist on the planet or not. The time consumed counting them for me (to 99% of the time then ignore) is a drag. Give me a yes or no, then (geological and biological also indicated). If I fancy it, I’m going there to map it anyhow.

I’d also get rid of the tuning bar at the bottom. Just give me the telescope bit. All that faffing around tuning is also a drag. It’s quicker to view them through the scope than fly to them.

I appreciate everyone has a different take and my ideas will be the very worst to some.