Crime and Punishment not fit for purpose - needs overhauling

[Rat Catcher]

For PvE to actually be self moderating it needs to have more teeth and be more complex (one example of this being better C+P).

No, it really doesn't... but, in truth, this perception is fairly typical of the "My ship is a hammer and everything a nail" line of thinking.

Challenge is low because the average skillset of players is low, are you suggesting the every player in the game has to "Git GUD!" because then the game would meet your own perception of what it should be?

Although I agree that C&P is pretty useless in its current incarnation.

 

[Screemonster]

We've had a recent change so that we don't lose combat bonds when exploded. I think FD should make exploration data persist too, for consistency.

And it's the best change made to AX combat in years. Before, if I was sitting on more bonds than the value of my ship (not a lot given that I fly a shard vulture for AXCZs because it's fun damnit) and a basilisk or medusa showed up, I'd cut and run. Nowadays, with just the rebuy at stake, I can look at what I have to lose versus what I have to gain, and think "you know what, I'm going for it".

If all we lost on death was our insurance premium then maybe getting ganked wouldn't sting as much in the first place.

 

[Rubbernuke]

No, it really doesn't... but, in truth, this perception is fairly typical of the "My ship is a hammer and everything a nail" line of thinking.

Challenge is low because the average skillset of players is low, are you suggesting the every player in the game has to "Git GUD!" because then the game would meet your own perception of what it should be?

Although I agree that C&P is pretty useless in its current incarnation.

Well in truth it does because the whole system has to grow with your abilities. The more you engage the more the game should take notice- this most especially in PvE and C+P where the more you do, the more another faction, power or security pushes back.

I do wonder if the 'average skillset' is such because the game itself has evolved a difficulty curve that tops out very quickly.

 

[Rubbernuke]

And it's the best change made to AX combat in years. Before, if I was sitting on more bonds than the value of my ship (not a lot given that I fly a shard vulture for AXCZs because it's fun damnit) and a basilisk or medusa showed up, I'd cut and run. Nowadays, with just the rebuy at stake, I can look at what I have to lose versus what I have to gain, and think "you know what, I'm going for it".

If all we lost on death was our insurance premium then maybe getting ganked wouldn't sting as much in the first place.

I think what should have been done is you have a personal POI whos position is given to you on destruction so you can recover it yourself. But then I also would love limpets to be able to siphon data.

 

[Darkfyre99]

No, it really doesn't... but, in truth, this perception is fairly typical of the "My ship is a hammer and everything a nail" line of thinking.

Challenge is low because the average skillset of players is low, are you suggesting the every player in the game has to "Git GUD!" because then the game would meet your own perception of what it should be?

Although I agree that C&P is pretty useless in its current incarnation.

This is one of those “chicken and egg” problems that ultimately boils down to Frontier not trusting their initial designs for this game, some of which they had already implemented and then took a sledgehammer to. We can't have better NPC opposition because the average skill level is so low, and the average skill level is so low because we have such weak NPC opposition. Add in the fact that they never implemented any functional difference in difficulty between an Anarchy system and a High Security system, and you get the situation we have today.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Personally I’d be happy with it applying to PvE too

So how would someone who uses BGS murder get in?

 

[Screemonster]

a vain attempt to appease an unappeasable demographic of the playerbase

One could apply this description to a lot of the most popular demands for gameplay changes. Especially relating to anything pvp.

And the whole game suffers for it. The truth is that the vast majority of crime and punishment is PvE, so that's what the system should be designed around. Unwanted PvP is already an entirely-avoidable edge case.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Don’t get caught. A government wouldn’t let a known political assassin into the country. Once you’ve overthrown the existing government you’ll be fine.

Also I did say personally, doesn’t mean it would be the right choice. But from how I’ve played the game it seems reasonable that you can be banned from a system for a time.

I am thinking more hours rather than days (unless you especially prolific), enough to potentially make the system safe for a while.

Edit: If it’s the Pilots Federation doing the banning, it could easily be just crimes against a fellow CMDR that triggers the ban.

And how do you 'not get caught' if every crime is automatically logged? For such a thing you'd need to make crime records dependent on scans.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Well in truth it does because the whole system has to grow with your abilities.

It does, until you reach elite, then the hardest challenge is another, entirely optional one, found by accepting high-level combat missions.

I do wonder if the 'average skillset' is such because the game itself has evolved a difficulty curve that tops out very quickly.

Or maybe that the 'average player' isn't particularly interested in an entirely combat focussed game?

We can't have better NPC opposition because the average skill level is so low, and the average skill level is so low because we have such weak NPC opposition.

Yet players still complain that they were blown up by NPC pirates etc...
Perhaps the skillset is so low because players don't want an ever-increasing challenge while relaxing playing their favourite game?

The game has to be tailored to be playable by those with the lowest skill level, not the highest, and, until ED decides to be entirely combat focussed, that skill level will remain low - and, naturally, should it become entirely combat focussed, those not interested will complain, rage quit, just slink off...

I find the NPC opposition easy, unless I deliberately choose tough missions, but it doesn't mean I actually wish to spend any portion of my play time dealing with 'difficult' NPCs rather than just getting on with things, I'd certainly lose interest quickly enough. (and my interest in the game is already much lower than before the Thargoids arrived)

 

[Ian Doncaster]

If all we lost on death was our insurance premium then maybe getting ganked wouldn't sting as much in the first place.

Tricky to make it work properly for cargo - especially both for trading and mining at once - without opening a bunch of weird PvE loopholes, but I'd generally agree given the direction the rest of the game has gone. And the insurance premium itself is just a beginner-trap with modern earning rates so that might as well go too.

You already lose time (and if you don't take it as a hint to come up with a better plan, repeatedly lose time) by dying, which should be enough incentive to avoid it in general.

Add in the fact that they never implemented any functional difference in difficulty between an Anarchy system and a High Security system, and you get the situation we have today.

And "functional" is the key here. There is a substantial difference between High and Low/Anarchy security in terms of how many pirate-archetype NPCs show up in supercruise at all, and what ships and combat ratings and wing sizes they have, and how long the police will take to help when they start attacking, etc etc.

It's just all completely irrelevant:
- getting interdicted by NPCs at all requires a fair amount of inattention especially nowadays
- ambient NPCs are even worse at it because of the chance they'll spawn in the wrong place, or too late, or get distracted chasing an NPC trader, etc. / meanwhile the non-ambient ones after your mission or tasty cargo specifically (and tuned to your ship and rank regardless of location) aren't really affected by security level beyond having a slightly higher chance of showing up in low sec
- even in high sec a competent player can have either killed or escaped from an NPC attacker before the police show up
- it doesn't affect non-supercruise (distribution of signal sources or RES difficulties) at all so appears invisible. If RES difficulty was matched to the system security level - i.e. all RES in Anarchy are Hazardous, low sec has a mix of Hazardous and High, etc. it'd be much more visible in terms of things people actually interact with. (if likely a rather unpopular change to introduce now!)

 

[Rubbernuke]

Sorry, I wasn’t clear in my original post.

I don’t mean as soon as you commit a crime. But when you end up at a Judicial Facility part of your bail, as it were, is you’re no longer allowed in the system for X mins (base on how much murdering you have been up to).

This may give an incentive to hunt down rogue PvPers to clear a safe path for a CG.

Ah, I see. Thats quite a fun twist!

 

[Rubbernuke]

It does, until you reach elite, then the hardest challenge is another, entirely optional one, found by accepting high-level combat missions.

I disagree- unless you are some saint who never gets on someones bad side, if I'm continually messing with a faction, power or superpower the response should be in kind. The ranks are broken and frankly pointless.

Or maybe that the 'average player' isn't particularly interested in an entirely combat focussed game?

Yet players still complain that they were blown up by NPC pirates etc...
Perhaps the skillset is so low because players don't want an ever-increasing challenge while relaxing playing their favourite game?

Who knows? There is nothing detrimental to making a graded PvE experience that grows with you properly. It would actually benefit non combat players too, because then PvE would be balanced, C+P would work and those who seek protection would get something that actually functions.

The game has to be tailored to be playable by those with the lowest skill level, not the highest, and, until ED decides to be entirely combat focussed, that skill level will remain low - and, naturally, should it become entirely combat focussed, those not interested will complain, rage quit, just slink off...

I find the NPC opposition easy, unless I deliberately choose tough missions, but it doesn't mean I actually wish to spend any portion of my play time dealing with 'difficult' NPCs rather than just getting on with things, I'd certainly lose interest quickly enough. (and my interest in the game is already much lower than before the Thargoids arrived)

Hence why 'graded PvE' is the key. If you are low ability or just don't want the hassle you don't get it. But its wrong to have someone engage with the game in a shared BGS and not see some repercussions for that effort.

 

[Darkfyre99]

It does, until you reach elite, then the hardest challenge is another, entirely optional one, found by accepting high-level combat missions.

And reaching Elite is fairly hard to do, unless you use "this one weird trick" to artificially raise your combat rank above what your actual skill level is.

Or maybe that the 'average player' isn't particularly interested in an entirely combat focussed game?

I'm not particularly interested in the combat aspects of the game, but I do wish the typical NPC I randomly encounter was actually a threat to me. But then again, I don't use "this one weird trick" to kill NPCs, so my combat ranking remains pretty low.

Yet players still complain that they were blown up by NPC pirates etc...
Perhaps the skillset is so low because players don't want an ever-increasing challenge while relaxing playing their favourite game?

The game has to be tailored to be playable by those with the lowest skill level, not the highest, and, until ED decides to be entirely combat focussed, that skill level will remain low - and, naturally, should it become entirely combat focussed, those not interested will complain, rage quit, just slink off...

I find the NPC opposition easy, unless I deliberately choose tough missions, but it doesn't mean I actually wish to spend any portion of my play time dealing with 'difficult' NPCs rather than just getting on with things, I'd certainly lose interest quickly enough. (and my interest in the game is already much lower than before the Thargoids arrived)

In every MMO I've played, including those that weren't focused on combat, they had zones of varying difficulty. Areas that where NPCs weren't much of a threat even to merchants like I tend to play, and areas where NPCs would be deadly to an unskilled combat player. These games tempted players out of their comfort zone, encouraged them to develop their skills, by making the rewards better in those zones.

This game doesn't do that.

There isn't a functional difference between high-sec and low-sec/anarchy systems when it comes to difficulty, and there should be. And if Frontier had stuck to their guns with their Economic Sim, rather than take a chainsaw to it, merchants like me, who prefer a little more danger in their lives, would be able to take risks in the low-sec/anarchy systems for the high rewards they would be. Meanwhile players who want to relax, in an Elite game of all things, could stick to to high-sec systems.

 

[angusmadmac1]

PvP moderates CGs and PP though. The former has NPCs that are very weak (for a reason in PP CZs) but also has weak NPCs that do practically nothing strategically. I'd love to think CGs actually had a default opposition too- for example people who don't like the CG benefactor but have no other way to oppose.

For PvE to actually be self moderating it needs to have more teeth and be more complex (one example of this being better C+P).

But some CG are directed with good rewards for one and iffy for the other. Fdev understand that psychology very well when directing a storyline.

As for moderation (in game not forums) ?? Im not sure but I've never had an PVP encounter intended or otherwise in either CG or when I've been module shopping(PP) so I would have to disagree.
I would agree that NPC's need to be beefed up especially at the Elite rank ( thankfully no prestige ranks on console)

 

[Darkfyre99]

I don’t think that’s strictly true. Dangerous to Elite is just a grind to get so many kills, not much to do with skill level at that point.

I went from barely engineered ships to G5 in that period. The final push wasn’t even a challenge. - I hadn’t ventured into AX combat at that point.

As I understand it, to actually get to Elite, you need to go out of your way to fight increasinly tough enemies, which isn't something that happens organically to a relatively non-combat oriented player like me who generally stays out of combat zones, avoids high-level assassination missions unless the reward is really worth my while, and typically only fights NPCs that that interdict me enroute to my destination.

I think the highest ranked NPC I've ever encountered en route was a dangerous one, and even that was a fairly easy fight, even if it was also a fairly long one. Which might've been a lot shorter if I'd bothered to put more effort into engineering, or used "this one weird trick". I just don't want to develop bad habits, which is a fair description of "common forum wisdom" and "this one weird trick" guides.

For reference, according to Inara, I've been sitting at the combat rank Novice for the last eight years, though I'll soon rank up to being Competent.

 

[Rat Catcher]

And reaching Elite is fairly hard to do, unless you use "this one weird trick" to artificially raise your combat rank above what your actual skill level is.

I took me around 4 years to get combat elite, without any wierd tricks to rank up. 3 years later and I'm almost at Elite 1 in combat, so it looks like around the same timescale for me

There isn't a functional difference between high-sec and low-sec/anarchy systems when it comes to difficulty, and there should be. And if Frontier had stuck to their guns with their Economic Sim, rather than take a chainsaw to it, merchants like me, who prefer a little more danger in their lives, would be able to take risks in the low-sec/anarchy systems for the high rewards they would be.

Yes, I remember playing the original Elite in '84, it was ground-breaking for its time.
ED is a much more rounded game in comparison - but, obviously, does not present the challenge of the original. (I never played the other 2 games, so cannot comment on them)

There will always be players who consider FD have dumbed the game down too much, but, had they not done so, would the game have disappeared into obscurity? Who knows

 

[aRJay]

My two biggest questions around C&P are these.

1. Why in a high security systems can you still gank, murder and attack others freely at will?
surely certain areas even though it might be lore breaking should have a weapons disabled grid or tech?

No might about it and it would also break immersion, suspension of disbelief and pretty much anything else that makes the game work in our heads.

2. Why is there no crime bad guy career route? Plenty of people want to gank, murder and steal why are the mechanics in game not sorted for this yet?dw

Now that is a good if much asked question.

3. Why have some of the features and mechanics for being a bad buy not been copied across from Frontier Elite II and First Encounters?


I honest think Powerplay 2.0 being open only or this brand new feature coming in january needs to be PvP related, implementing a proper PvP mode will give the players who want to fight eachother a way to do it. This would solve a few C&P problems but the system needs a strict rework.

The issue isn’t in the ones that want to fight each other it is those that just want to shoot players that cannot fight back.

 

[Rubbernuke]

But some CG are directed with good rewards for one and iffy for the other. Fdev understand that psychology very well when directing a storyline.

As for moderation (in game not forums) ?? Im not sure but I've never had an PVP encounter intended or otherwise in either CG or when I've been module shopping(PP) so I would have to disagree.
I would agree that NPC's need to be beefed up especially at the Elite rank ( thankfully no prestige ranks on console)

'moderation' in this context is a moderating force when the generic PvE opposition is weak.

 

[aRJay]

And it's the best change made to AX combat in years. Before, if I was sitting on more bonds than the value of my ship (not a lot given that I fly a shard vulture for AXCZs because it's fun damnit) and a basilisk or medusa showed up, I'd cut and run. Nowadays, with just the rebuy at stake, I can look at what I have to lose versus what I have to gain, and think "you know what, I'm going for it".

If all we lost on death was our insurance premium then maybe getting ganked wouldn't sting as much in the first place.

Nah!

I have been ganked with enough credits to almost fund another FC and it still stung not just for the loss of the ship but the loss of the Christmas supplies for Hutton Orbital.

 

[Darkfyre99]

There will always be players who consider FD have dumbed the game down too much, but, had they not done so, would the game have disappeared into obscurity? Who knows

Who knows indeed. It could very well be that because FD "dumbed down" the game too much, rather than focus on improving upon its strengths, that it isn't nearly as successful as it should be.

Not really, you just have to kill a lot of Elite and Dangerous NPCs to get to Elite rank. And as you say Dangerous is fairly easy - especially when you get up to that rank yourself - and Elite NPCs aren’t that much more of a challenge.

I take on wing missions solo to add some challenge, but it’s nothing like a one to one with a half decent CMDR.

Edit: Although I agree that you do have to have a combat focus to reach Elite, but it’s more to do with the time put in rather than the increase in difficulty.

That's kind of my point: If I, a non-combat focused and time-poor player, finds NPCs near the top of the difficulty ladder and four tiers higher than my own, in a non-combat ship with G3-combat equipment no less, to be easy, then perhaps the difficulty of those higher level NPCs need a buff. But they can't really give them a buff, because quite frankly at the beginning of this game's development, Frontier chose to use a short-sighted "fix" to appease a certain unappeasable demographic, rather than actually fixing the underlying problem behind those complaints, and this has been their strategy ever since.

As a result, the ideal solutions to many of the current complaints, including NPC difficulty and C&P, are not a viable solution.