Crime does NOT fit the punishment

[NeilF]

You may now have to pay an extortionate hot module cleaning fee... maybe put it back before paying the fine to clean the original hot ship? Unfortunately, you may have now made another ship hot by putting a hot module into a previously clean ship.

Am I the only person who reads the above and just sees daft overbloated unnecessarily clunk and unfriendly design?

This seemingly harsh system is meant to prevent people from going on crime sprees and then cleaning their hot ship and bypassing any consequences bytransferringsimpky g all the modules to a new hull.

Wouldn't this be achieved, I don't know, but the CMDR being the person held responsible for their actions, and not the metal he was flying at the time?

It's like a mugger getting arrested and then his friend getting done because he's now wearing the muggers old ("hot") shoes...

 

[Ethaidan]

Wouldn't this be achieved, I don't know, but the CMDR being the person held responsible for their actions, and not the metal he was flying at the time?

It's like a mugger getting arrested and then his friend getting done because he's now wearing the muggers old ("hot") shoes...

No... and for the 420th time... bounties used to be tied to cmdrs. The go to exploit for clearing bounties under this system was to switch from an expensive ship into a stock sidewinder, let the system authorities kill you, and presto no consequences. Your mugging anaology is weak. How about I go on a crime spree in a black windowless van and then loan it to you and see how the authorities respond to you driving around the city that van. So... and again... there will always be gamey elements in video games, because enough people will spend as much time looking for exploits and then sharing them to require near consistent tweaking by developers. The more complex the game, the more potential exploits. In short, because people.

 

[GunnerBill]

Am I the only person who reads the above and just sees daft overbloated unnecessarily clunk and unfriendly design?

Wouldn't this be achieved, I don't know, but the CMDR being the person held responsible for their actions, and not the metal he was flying at the time?

It's like a mugger getting arrested and then his friend getting done because he's now wearing the muggers old ("hot") shoes...

No... and for the 420th time... bounties used to be tied to cmdrs. The go to exploit for clearing bounties under this system was to switch from an expensive ship into a stock sidewinder, let the system authorities kill you, and presto no consequences. Your mugging anaology is weak. How about I go on a crime spree in a black windowless van and then loan it to you and see how the authorities respond to you driving around the city that van. So... and again... there will always be gamey elements in video games, because enough people will spend as much time looking for exploits and then sharing them to require near consistent tweaking by developers. The more complex the game, the more potential exploits. In short, because people.

Bangs heads together!

Actually you are both right.

In NeilF's example the Authorities would let the dude wearing the wrong shoes go. The Van could be resprayed or forgotten about when the actual perps were caught.

Without depth C&P can't allow for this, which is what due process & appeals would do in a real C&P system.

 

[NeilF]

No... and for the 420th time... bounties used to be tied to cmdrs. The go to exploit for clearing bounties under this system was to switch from an expensive ship into a stock sidewinder, let the system authorities kill you, and presto no consequences. Your mugging anaology is weak. How about I go on a crime spree in a black windowless van and then loan it to you and see how the authorities respond to you driving around the city that van. So... and again... there will always be gamey elements in video games, because enough people will spend as much time looking for exploits and then sharing them to require near consistent tweaking by developers. The more complex the game, the more potential exploits. In short, because people.

Umm... All I can say is I look at the direction C&P has gone in and it just seems contrived, unfriendly and worse still, not condusive to a good outcome, fine wise or effectiveness wise.

Let's take the core of the new C&P mechanics, Notoriety, and it's "attempt" to rein in illegal destruction. So here we end up with ships being left outside stations over night to decay it. So CMDRs go out for a days seal clubbing, leave their ships online over night... and?

Meanwhile, someone accidentally shoots a low hull value NPC ships in a RES, and are hit with a chain of time sponge clunky mechanics to jump to clear up the mess.

And yes, as regards my mugger analogy, let's take yours then. You drive around in said vehicle mowing down predestrians... The authorities know exactly who you are... Know exactly what you've done... But now you've stored that vehicle, and you're driving around in another one, they don't have any issue with you at all? Hmmm... But take the battery out of your murder vehicle and put it into your current "clean" car, that's different now! Hmmm...


Ultimately it feels there's too many cooks involved in the C&P pie, all trying to affect the recipe. IMHO, there should be simpler approaches, geared towards specific teirs/types of crime, offering the best outcome. Yes, easier said than done. But I don't see where we are now, as any sort of elegant solution. It doesn't penalise activities when necessary. And worse still, penalises CMDRs time where not necessary.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Umm... All I can say is I look at the direction C&P has gone in and it just seems contrived, unfriendly and worse still, not condusive to a good outcome, fine wise or effectiveness wise.

Let's take the core of the new C&P mechanics, Notoriety, and it's "attempt" to rein in illegal destruction. So here we end up with ships being left outside stations over night to decay it. So CMDRs go out for a days seal clubbing, leave their ships online over night... and?

Meanwhile, someone accidentally shoots a low hull value NPC ships in a RES, and are hit with a chain of time sponge clunky mechanics to jump to clear up the mess.

And yes, as regards my mugger analogy, let's take yours then. You drive around in said vehicle mowing down predestrians... The authorities know exactly who you are... Know exactly what you've done... But now you've stored that vehicle, and you're driving around in another one, they don't have any issue with you at all? Hmmm... But take the battery out of your murder vehicle and put it into your current "clean" car, that's different now! Hmmm...


Ultimately it feels there's too many cooks involved in the C&P pie, all trying to affect the recipe. IMHO, there should be simpler approaches, geared towards specific teirs/types of crime, offering the best outcome. Yes, easier said than done. But I don't see where we are now, as any sort of elegant solution. It doesn't penalise activities when necessary. And worse still, penalises CMDRs time where not necessary.

I guess it all went nuts when they switched to "bounty is tied to ship" and then someone figured now ships consist of parts now and then they probably discussed about "what makes a ship" and then time was up to make it decent.

Maybe they can share their philosophical discourse? - We might still learn from it.

 

[XW_Ziggy]

This sounds like a bug to me and should be reported. Unless you only report bugs that are in your disadvantage...

My notoriety would have been 0 at the time of the murder; I'm not sure if that means that the first murder incurs zero, and the next 10%, or whether the notoriety is applied first, and then the bounty penalty applied.

I could file a bug report - it's not as if money's a problem for me. I could afford to go on a murder-hobo spree at notoriety rank 10 every day as long as I can keep getting 4M CR for a five minute wing mission and I can stack multiple 3-5M short-hop delivery missions to one system.

I also didn't check to see if he was an enemy powerplay faction, that would legitimately make a difference - would it not? I'm more just not sure what the current rules on C&P are since FDev state that they're continually tweaking.

Either way, my only experience of the C&P system so far is that it's inconveniently easy to get a bounty (usually a mis-target for me due to heatsink or target-lock-breaker) yet remarkably gentle on genuine murder-hobo'ing.

 

[CAPT. Ho Chi Minge]

I guess it all went nuts when they switched to "bounty is tied to ship" and then someone figured now ships consist of parts now and then they probably discussed about "what makes a ship" and then time was up to make it decent.

Maybe they can share their philosophical discourse? - We might still learn from it.

Yep considering a stock cutter is worth around 200m while a fully A rated machine of death can come closer to the order of 1billion or there abouts.

 

[lenna]

Yep considering a stock cutter is worth around 200m while a fully A rated machine of death can come closer to the order of 1billion or there abouts.

Well at least 700M... while a suicide Cutter could have a value of ~181M... that is a difference of over 500M or to put things in perspective less than a third of the rebuy.

Suicide Cutter Rebuy = <9.1M
Outfitted Cutter Rebuy = >35.6M

 

[Ethaidan]

You drive around in said vehicle mowing down predestrians... The authorities know exactly who you are... Know exactly what you've done... But now you've stored that vehicle, and you're driving around in another one, they don't have any issue with you at all? Hmmm... But take the battery out of your murder vehicle and put it into your current "clean" car, that's different now! Hmmm...

Ah, but they don't, do they... to quote from earlier in this very thread...

Yes, and my truck has a registration plate that is linked to my drivers liscence, my business address, etc. but that does not mean I am always driving it now does it? If it is used in the commission of a crime, or even a traffic violation, authorities will need to verify who was driving, did I know, etc.

Displaying cmdr names on ship scan is as gamey as it gets... cause every criminal is going to publicly broadcast their name whenever they do anything, aren't they now? The whole 'everyone can see everyone's cmdr name all the time' is the most common deus ex machina (well, OK poor usage, but whatever) in online gaming, but pretty much a necessity to enable repetitive cmdr communication & cooperation, and allow for some semblance of harassment/grief reporting. I'd be all for anonymous cmdr names (not displayed unless toggled for playing with friends, allies, etc.), if ship names & registrations were permanent, unique and linked to a cmdr, but given the sheer number of player ships out there I'm not sure that would be possible.

In response to GBills comments, absolutely, a criminal vehicle could be resprayed, fitted with new registration plates and a new vin... which could be a fantastic bit of shady underground gameplay... but essentially exactly what is already happening when one 'cleans' a ship by paying off the bounty, just in a contextually less interesting way.

As for the hot modules concept/implementation - an unfortunate necessary evil, because people (already discussed in this and other threads).

As for punishments for accidental friendly fire, have a look at the current FF thread, this is being discussed and addressed.

As for afk notoriety decay, I agree with others who have expressed a preference for non-temporal decay - missions, etc. to restore respectability.

 

[Franc Kaos]

No... and for the 420th time... bounties used to be tied to cmdrs. The go to exploit for clearing bounties under this system was to switch from an expensive ship into a stock sidewinder, let the system authorities kill you, and presto no consequences. ...

Get killed in a Sidewinder the bounty doesn't get wiped but goes down by the price of the Sidewinder minus the cost of the destroyed ship (which would probably make it go up) - still better than hot modules, or am I missing something obvious?

 

[n4p0l3on]

Why can't they tie the punishment to both the pilot and the ship?

Give the pilot bounties and give the ship fines? And give both semi permanent karma systems that require complicated ways to clean up.

No need to be overly complicated, like if you repeatedly kill clean and no power play cmdrs then your faction reputations can get lowered or even capped after some threshold, then maybe even some kind of criminal tax where mission payment get cuts 75% for criminals... Then the reverse with your ships and assets, for a criminal everything you buy would cost you more, even fuel and ammo, insurance company demands more money from criminals and their ships.

Hit them where it really matters, at the money, no need for lock and funky respawn system.

 

[Ethaidan]

Get killed in a Sidewinder the bounty doesn't get wiped but goes down by the price of the Sidewinder minus the cost of the destroyed ship (which would probably make it go up) - still better than hot modules, or am I missing something obvious?

Yes. That was in reference to the old system, with the suicidewinder loophole, which has inspired the hot ship concept of the new system.

 

[rekurzion]

I really don't get all the fuss. And am seriously questioning if all the people complaining have actually been playing the game for a reasonable amount of time lately? I'm more than satisfied with the new system. And I find it's very easy to pay off fines and minor bounties. Murder bounties not so much, but then again, when I murder a ship, I choose to do that. And now there are consequences to that. Which makes the game even better in my view, because choices you make now actually have meaning.

I think that all this rattle is just a downside to the way the developers have chosen to publish this game. It's in fact, to me, the reason many other parts of the game get so much heat. Because it has been sold while being in development. I completely understand why FDev did this, because now this way actually they were able to publish a playable game. And I'm grateful for that: I can fly a spaceship in a 1:1 galaxy for god's sake! Which is still g awesome.
But it has a downside: any limiting factor you put in the game is of course subject to change. And if there's one thing a lot of people hate, it's change. People get used to earning a certain amount of credits per hour, or shooting whatever they feel like, doing missions that pay out great, ot whatever. But the game being in development also means the developers are still trying to balance all things, and in the process will change certain factors to the equation. It is unavoidable they will nerf or boost certain things. People tend to get ticked off by that. And since we're on the interwebz here, where people find out they're not held back by real life ugly things like "politeness", "empathy" or "common sense", a lot of anger and entitlement will follow.
Now FDev has made a lot of faults in the process of building and balancing the game, I'm the first to admit to that. But with the C&P overhaul, I really feel it's the aversion to change that gets a lot of people riled up.

Then again, I could be wrong. But for me, it works like a charm, or at the very least, is a definitive improvement over the convulated system it once was. And in the spirit of empathy: YMMV of course.

Crap...ok. I was moving a shield generator in and out of the hot ship last night for engineering...hopefully that didnt screw me up. I'll focus on clearing the fine tonight then....what a pain in the , I landed on every single MoG station and couldnt pay those idiots.....teach me to operate in federal space. As for the strafing, i know and I am usually very good at not doing it, just one of those fog of war moments as I was taking on 3 condas.

Thanks for the info.

I recommend bookmarking every IF location you come across. With this simple trick i don't even need to use the new IF filter as i already have all my locations tagged.

IF are usually in low sec, have black markets and can be found on outposts. Every commander should have a few of these marked.

 

[Ethaidan]

Why can't they tie the punishment to both the pilot and the ship?

Give the pilot bounties and give the ship fines? And give both semi permanent karma systems that require complicated ways to clean up.

No need to be overly complicated, like if you repeatedly kill clean and no power play cmdrs then your faction reputations can get lowered or even capped after some threshold, then maybe even some kind of criminal tax where mission payment get cuts 75% for criminals... Then the reverse with your ships and assets, for a criminal everything you buy would cost you more, even fuel and ammo, insurance company demands more money from criminals and their ships.

Hit them where it really matters, at the money, no need for lock and funky respawn system.

Well... yes, that is exactly what the new system does.

Pilots who commit lesser crimes receive fines which can be easily paid off (pending).
Pilots who commit murder death kill are tagged with a notoriety rating, which has consequences (until it is restored to 0)

Ships used in the commission of crimes are designated as 'hot' until they are appropriately 'cleaned' by paying off any outstanding bounties or being destroyed by authorities/bounty hunter (closing the previous suicidewinder exploit).
Hot modules are an unfortunate necessity to avoid a predictable exploit.

I really don't see why some people are struggling with this basic structure. Granted, there have been some implementation and teething issues, mostly about how/where to pay off fines/bounties and appropriate thresholds for 'accidental criminal activities' and non-mdk crimes, but these are being discussed, feedback considered, and the system adjusted.

 

[lenna]

Get killed in a Sidewinder the bounty doesn't get wiped but goes down by the price of the Sidewinder minus the cost of the destroyed ship (which would probably make it go up) - still better than hot modules, or am I missing something obvious?

You are missing something obvious, get killed in an expensive ship and can not cover the rebuy+bounty - lose the expensive ship. Get killed in a surrogate sidewinder and you can forfeit the sidewinder keeping the more expensive ship, then wash and repeat.

 

[XW_Ziggy]

I recommend bookmarking every IF location you come across. With this simple trick i don't even need to use the new IF filter as i already have all my locations tagged.

IF are usually in low sec, have black markets and can be found on outposts. Every commander should have a few of these marked.

Since I fly large ships a lot of the time, this annoyed me immensely because my first few systems that galmap told me had an ISF broker did not have a station with a large landing pad.

I now just have this permalink bookmarked:
https://eddb.io/system?z=2&i=16

The only caveat is that you need to check that the nearest orbital isn't thousands of light years away from the arrival point. Unfortunately EDDB can't combine station distance filters with system security filters

 

[Marra Morgan]

I recommend bookmarking every IF location you come across. With this simple trick i don't even need to use the new IF filter as i already have all my locations tagged.

IF are usually in low sec, have black markets and can be found on outposts. Every commander should have a few of these marked.

Very wise, CMDR!

In fact, IF are guaranteed to be found at any station controlled by an anarchist faction.

Some of us are looking out for the community by opening up more IF offices, making it quicker and easier to clear your misdemeanor