PvP Current PVP meta...

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

I cannot 'play nice' with anyone who would send an innocent CMDR to the rebuy screen for any reason, so mixed alignment groups would not work out for me.

Welp, thats pvp. Remember they didnt build this game to go do what we are doing right now. I dont think they said "HEY, Lets build this space game with powerplay so these guys can 1v1." Everyone has reasons, or complaints. Its not as bad as the forums blow it up to be.

These guys are the same people you and I are. We do protect new people in starter area's.

But everyone has their reasons to feel griefed. But for the most part this is not what we do. We are more about being competitive. Learning. You're not going to learn something from blowing up asps. We all know that. But sometimes it happens in role-played events. Its just the way it is.

At the end of the day we are there to support Elite Dangerous. And help each other out in the PVP part of the game. A lot of the guys role play too.

Dont be afraid of the names in there. If you really want to learn. Come learn from the best. And separate this from the game. Its okay to be enemies with the guys in there.

I think this is one of the bigger problems we are having trying to come together, because I said the same things you did. I just took the chance and seen what this game was really about. GCI is the best place to learn. Think about it. The bad guys arent all that bad if they are teaching right along side the good guys.

All I ask is remove that aspect. And view the group as a school room and teachers. Then you can do something about the bad guys in the game when you're ready.

Hope you give it a shot. If you're really looking for the "good guys" check out Adles armada and the iridium wing. They role play good the good guys if thats what you're looking for specifically. All that I ask is you dont discredit the bad guys. Everyone gets along here.

 

[Aashenfox]

Stitch and 90s kid gave very sound advice. I can echo that the GCI discord is the best source of advice and information, there are a lot of top tier pilots that hang out there and virtually all of them are happy to give advice.

My own 2 cents is to get familiar with weapons you may have never used before. PAs, rails, cannons, frag cannons. A lot of weapons that don't see use in PvE see lots of use in PvP.

Also, when they talk about meta builds (3 PA 2 rail FDL), it won't do you much good if you haven't practiced with those weapons. 90s kid uses gimballed MCs because he can use them to their strengths. For PvP out in the wild, a lot of builds can be viable. Fly what you are comfortable with and have fun experimenting too!

Yes, I always knew this was the answer (best is what suits you), however, there is meta and a balance must be struck! Thanks for the tips. I'm pretty good at using all the weapons, there are only two I haven't tried, PAs and Packhounds (and I'm not likely to ever try packhounds as I don't PP).

 

[Aashenfox]

Welp, thats pvp. Remember they didnt build this game to go do what we are doing right now. I dont think they said "HEY, Lets build this space game with powerplay so these guys can 1v1." Everyone has reasons, or complaints. Its not as bad as the forums blow it up to be.

These guys are the same people you and I are. We do protect new people in starter area's.

But everyone has their reasons to feel griefed. But for the most part this is not what we do. We are more about being competitive. Learning. You're not going to learn something from blowing up asps. We all know that. But sometimes it happens in role-played events. Its just the way it is.

At the end of the day we are there to support Elite Dangerous. And help each other out in the PVP part of the game. A lot of the guys role play too.

Dont be afraid of the names in there. If you really want to learn. Come learn from the best. And separate this from the game. Its okay to be enemies with the guys in there.

I think this is one of the bigger problems we are having trying to come together, because I said the same things you did. I just took the chance and seen what this game was really about. GCI is the best place to learn. Think about it. The bad guys arent all that bad if they are teaching right along side the good guys.

All I ask is remove that aspect. And view the group as a school room and teachers. Then you can do something about the bad guys in the game when you're ready.

Hope you give it a shot. If you're really looking for the "good guys" check out Adles armada and the iridium wing. They role play good the good guys if thats what you're looking for specifically. All that I ask is you dont discredit the bad guys. Everyone gets along here.

will definitely think about it, thanks. Did you see my edit at the bottom of the other post?...

Edit: couple of quick points, I favour bi-weave in pve because I am good at pip management on the fly, but I'm not sure how well that would translate to PvP. To give you an idea I as a serious contributor to WoW theorycrafting back in the day, so I'm aware of the symbiosis of certain parts. For example, if I want to go high resist, low MJ, I will need to run batteries and heatsinks, something I don't really like doing. If I go high MJ at the expense of resists, it would be pointless carrying batts and therefore heatsinks, freeing up key slots for more integrity or MJ. This is the thing, it's horses for courses (testament to how WELL balanced Elite PvP is comparatively). I think I'll just have to make a decision, get oout there and try it and see what happens. Learning by doing has always been my preferred method anyway.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

will definitely think about it, thanks. Did you see my edit at the bottom of the other post?...

Ah just seen this, so. Remember in wow once you reached max level. The game really started with raids and the gear grind?

Thats what this is, so, Biweaves and scramble spectrum dont go well together. And you have to use biweaves and your maneuverability to your advantage. Biweaves require you to be much faster than your opponent. Also have a fast broken regen rate with a really good distro.

PVP is pretty unbalanced. Thats why I made the "reason open sucks for everyone thread". Because once you start min maxing. You end up turning god rolls. g5 rolls that you essentially turn into g7 rolls with secondaries. So not only are there different skill sets. But there are heavily engineered ships as opposed to moderate g5 engineered ships.

People thats been around a lot longer FARM FARM FARM FARM during the week, do their rolls and get back to the CG to try out their upgrades. So, it can be a difficult start.

Which is why we have been asking for "YOU GET WHAT YOU SEE" Make sliders static. Let everyone have the chance for the same roll. Remove oh you got lucky. Or you spent more time.

Some guys have over 13,000 rolls. 4k rolls just on drives.

But thats what it takes. So if you guys really want to know, thats why engineers are unbalanced. No one gets a fair shot. Unless you can put in hours and hours just to hope for the best.

The fights make up for it though.

 

[ForeverN00b]

I cannot 'play nice' with anyone who would send an innocent CMDR to the rebuy screen for any reason, so mixed alignment groups would not work out for me.

To be fair, you posted in the forum. The forum has in-game good guys and in-game bad guys. It's a meeting spot to discuss Elite. The same applies to GCI. GCI is not a player group per se', it's the discors of the combat community.

Do you shun the forum or reddit because there are members that kill shieldless explorers? If not, then I suggest applying the same logic to GCI.

 

[Herbrand]

LR plasmas are good for aiming but efficient PAs are better than unmodified at everything, and are a great bargain for DPE and absolute damage.

Like 90s kid said, for LR plasmas shoot for a projectile speed of 1600 or close to it, and aim them with your fixed MCs.

Less distro draw. All around buffs in all catagories. More time on target with plasmas when close or out maneuvering.

Long range pairs well with Fixed multis though. You can engineer them to share the same leading reticule for no needs for adjustment.

On my FAS I use size 3 fixed thermal frag cannons and 2 focused plasmas. Good in wing fights as long as someone as a bank stopper, strips shields, really good vs large ships.

All preference really. Just as long as you can make it work. o/

EDIT: Meta is META though. Its the Most Efficient Tactical Advantage, Best in slot. This is why when metas are established in other games. They change the stats, characters ect to change peoples play styles and keep the game fresh. So its good changes happen. Its all about adapting. You can git gud. But can you stay gud?

Its almost harder to be a slave to the META. If you stick to one specific play-style(one trick). You will know your build so well, you can beat anything by tweaking your play. You learn your win conditions.

Thanks but no thanks. The amount of time I stay on the pip vs the amount of time I stay on the gimbals' lock-on window tells me to keep my gimballed MCs - the actual DPS is just better with them.

As for the Efficient PAs, yes, heat and distro is an issue, but I found out that with them I get to shoot accurately first. This means that Dispersal Field and/or Target Lock Breaker kick in, making my opponent's life harder for when they do get to shoot.

I have a set of Efficient ones, I will give them a go one of those days. Also, your FAS has 5 hardpoints? [woah]

 

[HeavyGroovez]

My current Lance warship build :

https://coriolis.edcd.io/outfit/fer...A=.EweloBhAOEoUwIYHMA28QgIwV0A=&bn=Dirty Bird

Its heavy and slow by FdL standards but it can dish out solid DPS regardless of the loadout you encounter, plus it can take a beating and still leave a brawl unscathed without any drama if things get a bit messy.

You will come across all sorts of weird and wonderful builds on your travels so you need something that is not too focused on dealing with any specific meta style loadouts.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Thanks but no thanks. The amount of time I stay on the pip vs the amount of time I stay on the gimbals' lock-on window tells me to keep my gimballed MCs - the actual DPS is just better with them.

As for the Efficient PAs, yes, heat and distro is an issue, but I found out that with them I get to shoot accurately first. This means that Dispersal Field and/or Target Lock Breaker kick in, making my opponent's life harder for when they do get to shoot.

I have a set of Efficient ones, I will give them a go one of those days. Also, your FAS has 5 hardpoints? [woah]

Haha, no man size 3 or Large hardpoints for the frags. And 2 Focused pa's =P . I should have worded that properly.

I personally use gimballed multis. I am a ToT fan myself. I feel they are very strong. They should reduce the tracking arc based on the sensors like they had in the patch a while back. Gimbals also force chaff, when the opponents builds could be stronger with an extra shield boosters or heatsinks. Gimbals are pretty strong when you get down to it. But they also make you pay in Dmg, wattage and chaff if they have it.

Yep TLB and Dfield are great too. TLB needs an internal cool down along with scramble spectrum lasers. Just like they did with the grom missile. The person its applied to has a cool down and cant be effected until that internal cooldown is over.

Dont really have a good number of seconds that would be good for them though.

 

[Aashenfox]

Ah just seen this, so. Remember in wow once you reached max level. The game really started with raids and the gear grind?

Thats what this is, so, Biweaves and scramble spectrum dont go well together. And you have to use biweaves and your maneuverability to your advantage. Biweaves require you to be much faster than your opponent. Also have a fast broken regen rate with a really good distro.

PVP is pretty unbalanced. Thats why I made the "reason open sucks for everyone thread". Because once you start min maxing. You end up turning god rolls. g5 rolls that you essentially turn into g7 rolls with secondaries. So not only are there different skill sets. But there are heavily engineered ships as opposed to moderate g5 engineered ships.

People thats been around a lot longer FARM FARM FARM FARM during the week, do their rolls and get back to the CG to try out their upgrades. So, it can be a difficult start.

Which is why we have been asking for "YOU GET WHAT YOU SEE" Make sliders static. Let everyone have the chance for the same roll. Remove oh you got lucky. Or you spent more time.

Some guys have over 13,000 rolls. 4k rolls just on drives.

But thats what it takes. So if you guys really want to know, thats why engineers are unbalanced. No one gets a fair shot. Unless you can put in hours and hours just to hope for the best.

The fights make up for it though.

Since we're on the topic, I don't have a problem with the randomness of the result, what I have a problem with is the randomness of the result AND the randomness of materials collection. I don't think there would be any point everyone rolling the same gear, in that case, why bother with engineers at all, might as well remove them from the game if we're all going to be in stock cars. Personally, I'd make mats gathering more reliable and keep the random rolls. Rewarding those who spent more time (despite my being one who would NOT have enough time to be competitive at the top), is perfectly reasonable. Time is everything, if you spend it you should be appropriately rewarded.

To be fair, you posted in the forum. The forum has in-game good guys and in-game bad guys. It's a meeting spot to discuss Elite. The same applies to GCI. GCI is not a player group per se', it's the discors of the combat community.

Do you shun the forum or reddit because there are members that kill shieldless explorers? If not, then I suggest applying the same logic to GCI.

Fair comment. Although I don't feel associated with forum users, we are all just like independent pilots in open. Joining a club with others is something else, but that doesn't invalidate what you say, and I'm not one for cutting off my own nose to spite my face, I'll have a look.


To other posters, thanks.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Hope you give it a shot. If you're really looking for the "good guys" check out Adles armada and the iridium wing. They role play good the good guys if thats what you're looking for specifically. All that I ask is you dont discredit the bad guys. Everyone gets along here.

Iridium Wing are more the "neutral guys". The ends justify the means [1], etc.

Everyone agrees that getting explorers back safely is 'good' in principle, until we're escorting someone who's about to drop 50 million in data on a faction you're trying to overthrow, or an explorer who in their non-exploring career has ended up on a bunch of KoS lists, etc. We're also quite happy to carry out criminal acts - including PvP ones - to keep an explorer safe. (And we're certainly happy to learn combat from people who are definitely not the 'good guys', because they're generally the people who know how to do it well.)

[1] Except heat cannons and combat logging, of course. Got to have some standards...

 

[Aashenfox]

Iridium Wing are more the "neutral guys". The ends justify the means [1], etc.

Everyone agrees that getting explorers back safely is 'good' in principle, until we're escorting someone who's about to drop 50 million in data on a faction you're trying to overthrow, or an explorer who in their non-exploring career has ended up on a bunch of KoS lists, etc. We're also quite happy to carry out criminal acts - including PvP ones - to keep an explorer safe. (And we're certainly happy to learn combat from people who are definitely not the 'good guys', because they're generally the people who know how to do it well.)

[1] Except heat cannons and combat logging, of course. Got to have some standards...

This is where the group needs to have its priorities outlined clearly, protecting individuals over their own agendas, or protecting their own agenda at the expense of lives. It's certainly true that black and white are just shades of grey in Elite.

I'm pretty much decided, I'm going to create my own group (I've had the name, agenda and motto in mind for a while now), there is a niche for what I want to do.

 

[StiTch]

will definitely think about it, thanks. Did you see my edit at the bottom of the other post?...

Regarding bi-weaves: the simple story with them is that in PvP, you will more or less be under continuous fire. As being hit stops shield regen for a period of time, you're hard pressed to get that shield regen to kick in sometimes, and even more hard pressed to get enough time unhit to make the double regen worth it.

You're then stuck using a lower cap shield that is more likely to break against a high alpha attack; the last thing you want is someone making a break for you with several rails, and your shields peeling apart in the first few moments of a match because the shields were too weak to hold while you co-ordinate yourself against the sudden onslaught.

That's not to damn bi-weaves unconditionally. Don't tell anyone (especially not Truesilver...), but I use them on my iCourier, where it loves the lower power use than A-rated shields but I can arguably say will get enough time to regen under double chaff.

 

[amysteriousstranger]

Lasers have a too big of a dmg fall-off and you need to keep pips full on weapons to use them.
500mps is actually slow for an FDL.

How can anyone have a combat build faster than that and call 500 slow? I have 30% (max on dirty drives) plus 12%(max is 15% bonus I think) extra added, no armour, everything is lighweighted or has mass reduction and I can only do 494 (with 42% over standard max)

I keep getting told it's slow but even with the 3% more it wouldn't go more than 505, striped down to nothing and that's how fast mine goes with no shields or cells

There is literally no way for me to increase it much further

EDIT: So without the mods I'm doing 397 stripped down, adding 29% (I have a second dirty drive with 29%) should go to 512 (397 + 29%) but I get 482

No idea what I'm doing wrong here

 

[Aashenfox]

Regarding bi-weaves: the simple story with them is that in PvP, you will more or less be under continuous fire. As being hit stops shield regen for a period of time, you're hard pressed to get that shield regen to kick in sometimes, and even more hard pressed to get enough time unhit to make the double regen worth it.

You're then stuck using a lower cap shield that is more likely to break against a high alpha attack; the last thing you want is someone making a break for you with several rails, and your shields peeling apart in the first few moments of a match because the shields were too weak to hold while you co-ordinate yourself against the sudden onslaught.

That's not to damn bi-weaves unconditionally. Don't tell anyone (especially not Truesilver...), but I use them on my iCourier, where it loves the lower power use than A-rated shields but I can arguably say will get enough time to regen under double chaff.

Yeh, I hear ya. As a (traditional) tank, I'm all about effective health, and if PAs and rails is the meta, then the EH choice is OBVIOUS: as many MJ as possible. Also, like I said earlier if you go low mj high resist, you'd be silly not to carry batteries, whereas if you go full MJ you'd be silly TO carry batteries, so you get the battery AND the heatsink slot back. I'll be going full MJ shielding to start with and see what I come up against. Thanks again

 

[Herbrand]

How can anyone have a combat build faster than that and call 500 slow? I have 30% (max on dirty drives)

Oh, sweet summer child...

On mobile now, when I get back I will explain on more detail.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Regarding bi-weaves: the simple story with them is that in PvP, you will more or less be under continuous fire. As being hit stops shield regen for a period of time, you're hard pressed to get that shield regen to kick in sometimes, and even more hard pressed to get enough time unhit to make the double regen worth it.

Though, if you have a decent hull under the shields, the shields will come back up from broken much faster with biweaves (compared with probably "too late" with prismatics), so you might get more total shields for the duration of the fight. Depends a lot on the ship class, the pilot's ability, and what the opposition is, of course - prismatics certainly are more forgiving for beginners and essential on the bigger ships.

 

[StiTch]

Though, if you have a decent hull under the shields, the shields will come back up from broken much faster with biweaves (compared with probably "too late" with prismatics), so you might get more total shields for the duration of the fight. Depends a lot on the ship class, the pilot's ability, and what the opposition is, of course - prismatics certainly are more forgiving for beginners and essential on the bigger ships.

Sorry yes - OP stated he'd be fighting until shields drop, so I gathered info on a hybrid build might not be best pitched here, but absolutely correct. If you're gutsy enough to run with a hybrid build and can accept it will probably get squashed by a good rail user, then bi-weaves are a magical, magical thing.

I also know people that use bi-weaves on standard ships with SCBs (and have done so myself on an iClipper), but it's not an entry level technique as you say.

 

[amysteriousstranger]

Oh, sweet summer child...

On mobile now, when I get back I will explain on more detail.

Optimal multiplyer is max 30% on dirty drives with no bonus added

Clean is 18%, you can't go over that without a bonus, so what is there to explain?

You can't physically get more than that, except with the added bonus at the end

 

[StiTch]

Optimal multiplyer is max 30% on dirty drives with no bonus added

with no bonus added

with no bonus added

So indignant for someone that already answered the question themself

Go look at the drives people have because they landed the right secondaries on them.

 

[CenturionPuch]

Optimal multiplyer is max 30% on dirty drives with no bonus added

Clean is 18%, you can't go over that without a bonus, so what is there to explain?

You can't physically get more than that, except with the added bonus at the end

And that added bonus is exactly what you keep rolling for.
My drive on the FDL now is plus 37% and that is the result of at least 150 rolls.
The max is about 42% as I heard.
I rolled a 40% roll with only minus 8.5 on optimal mass, but was a drive for the Anaconda and it's in the Corvette now where it doesn't matter all that much.
I know, it's ridiculous..