Day 64 of a broken background sim

Rafe Zetter

Banned
[1] To take a different example: there are currently 1366 Firefox bugs open just on its "tabbed browsing" feature, and 605 to do with the "address bar". I've used Firefox for years and never experienced any noticeable bugs to do with either. Chromium has 59601 total open bugs, so it's not just Firefox - all web browsers are completely bug-ridden and no-one should be wasting their time trying to browse the web until they shape up.

Come on Ian! - talk about overreaching a point.

The similarities between web browser bugs and "no atmospheric planets / player influenced economy" and other such things isn't in the same galaxy, let alone ball park.

Zak seems to feel the same way as I do, and seemingly many other players who are on a break from ED, and not just because of burnout, "it's just not doing it for me" a portion of that is the bugs, and another portion is "where's the rest of it?"

It's the difference between playing the launch version of a game and the GOTY edition with ALL THE CONTENT, ALL the fixes, updates and graphical overhauls.

Zak is waiting for ED GOTY all updated and shiney - so am I.

So when he (we) play it, it's not an experience very akin to a holiday we paid for, having been convinced by all the great brochure pictures; but on arrival you see the hotel is still under scaffolding, the pool is empty, the room's aircon hasn't been installed, the bathroom shower hasn't been tiled and it's just a hose running from the tap (it works, sure), the food is being brough in from a local take away, and just to cap it off - the beach is covered in detritus and being used as a car park by the locals.

Now, sure you're on an exotic island and it's kinda pretty, it's sunny and if you catch a bus to the next town (that only runs 2 times a day) you can use the beach there, but can you REALLY say you're having a great time?

Oh and just as a kick in the teeth, when you get home you see another advert for the same holiday 1/10th of the price (LEP vs sale price).

Truth is if the base version of the game was fully operational (no I'm not wearing a black robe, but I do have a lightsaber) and Horizons added more to that WITHOUT subtracting anything, like adding more bugs and annoying features such as multicrew that just doesn't work, wings that could not currently be called "reliable" (no it's not the players internet at fault) and had freeroaming aliens that actually added to the feel of "a dangerous galaxy" just as they were in the original - they came to you and pulled you out of witchspace, whether you wanted it or not - instead of hiding in thier own small instances that can be ENTIRELY ignored if you so wished. They might as well not be there, it's as optional as CqC, and PP.

No beigification - no C&P nonsense, no PP nonsense, and certainly no FDev interference with player activites for thier own private agenda (Gnosis incident).

Then you would be OK in saying "try it, you might like it" with confidence. But right now you're asking him and I to try eating a soggy and limp cumcumber sandwich with sand in it....

I'd rather wait, thanks.
 
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Rafe Zetter

Banned
Culture of entitlement so strong it deserves a statue. Perhaps in every major city.

Customers who pay money for an advertised product - usually get the advertised product, and when they don't there are actual laws that say they should.

You must be the easiest person to swindle on Earth with that attitude. I've got a fully boxed, never opened PS5 - I got it from a contact in Istanbul, who knows a guy, who knows a guy, who's married to another guy's donkey, and the Donkey's owner is part of the dev team and gets them for free to test before they go to market - £50.

The fact it's exactly the same weight as a brick is entirely coincedental.


Ofc it was his intention, what a silly question! You make a game 100 times more complex than FE2 (which did fit on one 3.5inch IIRC) you get 1000 times the amount of bugs.

It might surprise you to know there are developers that make some really quite complex games, who then spend quite a lot of time testing and retesting to get rid of a lot of those bugs, and then test some more. Even today.

It also seems you need an education in gaming history on the fact that the original Elite was almost entirely bug free - it had to be because it came on a cassette, AND because there was no space left in the rom for sloppy code - it HAD TO BE PERFECT, infact for the first 20 years of gaming after 1980, the majority of games were not released until the worst of the main bugs and most of the smaller ones had been eradicted - because YOU COULD NOT FIX THEM AFTERWARDS.

The advent of downloadable patches via the internet has made developers sloppy and arrogant - and the gamers themselves, have a great deal to answer for by accepting such sloppy coding and claiming anyone who has a problem with is "entitled".

I'd love it if one day the plane you were on crashed, or the software you use at work, just simply stopped working or instead of not working it did the opposite of what you wanted - or something else completely random. What would you have to say about the bad code then hmm?

Companies write GOOD CODE all the time, but nowadays far too many devs FDEv included think that because it;s just a game and not the software for the autopilot of a plane, it's perfectly ok to do a poor job, and then sell it.
 
Customers who pay money for an advertised product - usually get the advertised product, and when they don't there are actual laws that say they should.

You must be the easiest person to swindle on Earth with that attitude. I've got a fully boxed, never opened PS5 - I got it from a contact in Istanbul, who knows a guy, who knows a guy, who's married to another guy's donkey, and the Donkey's owner is part of the dev team and gets them for free to test before they go to market - £50.

The fact it's exactly the same weight as a brick is entirely coincedental.




It might surprise you to know there are developers that make some really quite complex games, who then spend quite a lot of time testing and retesting to get rid of a lot of those bugs, and then test some more. Even today.

It also seems you need an education in gaming history on the fact that the original Elite was almost entirely bug free - it had to be because it came on a cassette, AND because there was no space left in the rom for sloppy code - it HAD TO BE PERFECT, infact for the first 20 years of gaming after 1980, the majority of games were not released until the worst of the main bugs and most of the smaller ones had been eradicted - because YOU COULD NOT FIX THEM AFTERWARDS.

The advent of downloadable patches via the internet has made developers sloppy and arrogant - and the gamers themselves, have a great deal to answer for by accepting such sloppy coding and claiming anyone who has a problem with is "entitled".

I'd love it if one day the plane you were on crashed, or the software you use at work, just simply stopped working or instead of not working it did the opposite of what you wanted - or something else completely random. What would you have to say about the bad code then hmm?

Companies write GOOD CODE all the time, but nowadays far too many devs FDEv included think that because it;s just a game and not the software for the autopilot of a plane, it's perfectly ok to do a poor job, and then sell it.

Hanging around a forum complaining you didn't get your imaginary theorycrafted version of ED for five years doesn't equal not getting the advertised product.

I've been happily playing ED as long as you've been lamenting it, the difference being I based my expectations on the product not a fantasy.
 
I'd love it if one day the plane you were on crashed

De facto, You were a mecenate, who gave up money on an art project, which could or couldn’t take. It did take, sold millions of copies. It is an ongoing project, which will remain for at least a decade in construction (like Notre Dame). Or a passer by, who threw pocket change to a musician in the tube. Imagine how it looks when passer by turns around and says the song is “way worse than pink floyd of old, I want my money back”. That’s about how it looks from my angle. Forget it, the smartest man in the universe and his 10 quid/hour lawyer won’t squeeze a penny out of this one, judging from the quality of thinking on dispay.

As for the second part, it seems I am not the only one who could use education. Software got big. It isn’t whopping 1 megabyte of bug-free code any longer. Coding teams got huge. Ambitions lead to industrial zone, where modern works of gaming art have to cool off for years in development, because developers deal with feedback, change in industry trends, change of flow. It’s not a masonic conspiracy, which stemmed from popularization of broadband internet, it’s a necessity dictated by the mature market. Your hyperbolic example of a plane is weak analogy, because mechanics can’t attach a third wing on a plane mid-flight, while game developers constantly have to.
 

Rafe Zetter

Banned
De facto, You were a mecenate, who gave up money on an art project, which could or couldn’t take. It did take, sold millions of copies. It is an ongoing project, which will remain for at least a decade in construction (like Notre Dame). Or a passer by, who threw pocket change to a musician in the tube. Imagine how it looks when passer by turns around and says the song is “way worse than pink floyd of old, I want my money back”. That’s about how it looks from my angle. Forget it, the smartest man in the universe and his 10 quid/hour lawyer won’t squeeze a penny out of this one, judging from the quality of thinking on dispay.

As for the second part, it seems I am not the only one who could use education. Software got big. It isn’t whopping 1 megabyte of bug-free code any longer. Coding teams got huge. Ambitions lead to industrial zone, where modern works of gaming art have to cool off for years in development, because developers deal with feedback, change in industry trends, change of flow. It’s not a masonic conspiracy, which stemmed from popularization of broadband internet, it’s a necessity dictated by the mature market. Your hyperbolic example of a plane is weak analogy, because mechanics can’t attach a third wing on a plane mid-flight, while game developers constantly have to.

OK here goes.

If the busker was David Gilmour, and was playing with 8 broken fingers and cotton wool in his mouth, you still think he's get money? I doubt it - more likely there would be comments like "why the hell is David busking? He must be broke and he's clearly lost his edge".

DB has written some very good games, and sold them mostly bug free - he KNOWS HOW, but for reasons I privately suspect, he didn't.

If you think lawyers (or to be precise "Solicitors" if you are going to use GPB currency) are £10 an hour you've pretty much proven how out of touch you are. You're missing at least one zero, and the smartest guy in the world would naturally hire the smartest Solicitor, in which case you're going to need another one of these - *Hands Moriate another zero*.

Umm hate to break it to you but the official reports on the development lifetime of ED is SEVEN YEARS not 10 - as published by Frontier in thier own annual report, and we are already past year 4.

"isn't a whopping 1 mb of bug free code any longer" are you really actually kidding me? Games haven't been 1mb of code for 35 years and more - and as I said for the first 15 of those, they were, by and large bug free - and when I say bug free I mean the big ones - ones like... oh let's see - like launching from the Gnosis, during an event that was more than ONE MONTH in planning, and then HAVING IT FIRE UPON YOU, because some ....... person ...... didn't pay enough attention to the "no fire zone" while another person somewhere else forgot to add a prison colony nearby, so when you got destroyed by the Gnosis, you got shipped OVER ONE THOUSAND LIGHT YEARS AWAY, or here's another you can try on for size: Powerplay efforts GOING TO THE OTHER FACTION.

Both of those happened in the last 6 months. SIX MONTHS; three and a half years after the game was launched and you'd assume by now FDEv had managed to work out what they were doing.

MAJOR - GAME CHANGING / BREAKING BUGS.

That PowerPlay doozy should never have even made it out of the door - it should have been spotted and decapitated on sight, rather than being able to grab the keys, jump into the car and be halfway to Venezuela before someone noticed it had escaped and the car was missing. There should have been someone standing by the door, waiting and watching for any such problems.

No-one was, because the only other possible explanations are that they saw it and didn't care, or are so incompetant, they didn't recognise it for what it was, while it ran past them out the door.

IN. EX. CUSABLE.

Sheesh.

Oh and one last thing - game software isn't art at all - hasn't been for at least 25 years, pretty much ever since it became more about the money than the game.

The visionaries of yesteryear who were "all about the game and the journey, man" got handcuffed to thier chairs by the publishers who just wanted the money.

That happened not long before games started getting released with less and less QA.

Ask Chris Roberts, he'll tell you all about it, or Peter Molyneaux. He gets a bad rap for some poor decisions sure, but more than a few of those were pushed by the publishers, not his design vision.

I still play Black and White even now. Everyone should it's an excellent example of "just how far can we go with this?" in game design.

Here's a question for you: why is it that some of the most successful dev houses, having released games that are considered quintissential of thier time and regarded as "the games that took it to the next level" all gone? id Software: Bankrupt, Black Isle Studios: gone, Looking Glass Studio's: bankrupt.. The battlefield of game software development is littered with the corpses of giants, ground up by the machine that is publisher greed.

Shall I continue?

Oh, Lionhead Studios. Bankrupt.

"You know nuffin' Jon Snow".

Edit - oh and you completely missed my point about the plane - because the AUTOPILOT SOFTWARE (I did say so, and spelled it right as well) has NOTHING, to do with the fabric of the plane, but can still make it crash if it decides to do something other than that it was designed for, even if the input is correct.

The Powerplay bug is like inputting "cruise at 3,000 feet" into the autopilot, only for it to lock the controls and go into a vertical dive, and all you can do is watch while you crash.

Nothing at all to do with "adding a 3rd wing mid-flight".

I'm going for breakfast at Ikea - do try and give me a reply worth reading please.

Edit: and here's some more education for you: Vincent Van Gogh died penniless (so did most of the rest of them), and famously swapped a painting now worth millions "Sunflowers" for the cost of a meal and a bed for the night. THAT is the TRUE monetary value of art, nothing. REAL Art is about "the expression" - which is subjective to the artist, nothing more. An artist that creates a piece solely for the money, not including a commission, is NEVER happy about it (Unless he's Andy Warhol but that's another story), it's a means to an end that allows them to pursue thier REAL art, whatever that may be.

But don't take my word for it, ask any artist.

Oh and I didn't get my breakfast either, I forgot they don't do breakfast on Sundays.. dammit.
 
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The Happiness-based changes to Expansion in that are not implemented yet - Expansion works as it did in 3.2 - but the rest is basically accurate, minus the bugs

this is the best part, a low-population system we control has gone into expansion-out-of-nowhere twice now despite not being the happiest system, and it's not even kept in check by being in conflicts elsewhere so lowpop systems are very easy to lead into runaway expansions. The previous (non-pmf) controlling faction of that system was already in half a dozen systems under the pre-3.3 BGS and we're rapidly finding out why - the only thing that was slowing them down before was the fact that expanding into so many places would put them in constant conflicts.

Absolutely wonderful. Fantastic. Gotta love having completely uncontrolled rampant growth with no way to keep it in check because negative levers besides murder barely exist.
 
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I see that Division has sent in the Cleaners in an effort to control the narrative. So is the BGS broken or not?
Nobody outside of FDev knows. For all we know it may now be working as intended and all the previous stuff where people could game it was a mistake?
 
Just for the record, this person is not me - I would also like to state that I thought I was alone in being the only backer who has NEVER PLAYED ED since the game was launched - and have just 26 hours logged for the alpha.
Is playing the forum your game?

I'm not entirely sure it's as enjoyable as playing Elite Dangerous, to be honest.
 
It's so horrible and pointless that no-one can tell whether it's broken or not, is the main bullet point I'm getting.

Nobody outside of FDev knows. For all we know it may now be working as intended and all the previous stuff where people could game it was a mistake?

Hmmm... Let's try a different question - have the changes in 3.3 ruined the fun of serious BGS players? I'm not a 'serious' BGS player myself, but I have enjoyed supporting some factions while frustrating other factions in the past. Has the old 'rulebook' been torn up and thrown away?
 
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Hmmm... Let's try a different question - have the changes in 3.3 ruined the fun of serious BGS players? I'm not a 'serious' BGS player myself, but I have enjoyed supporting some factions while frustrating other factions in the past. Has the old 'rulebook' been torn up and thrown away?

If by "rulebook" you mean "tattered pile of coffee mug-stained parchments uploaded to a badly formatted wiki like it was an amateur's paranoid interpretation of the Voynich conspiracy", then, yes.
 
Hmmm... Let's try a different question - have the changes in 3.3 ruined the fun of serious BGS players? I'm not a 'serious' BGS player myself, but I have enjoyed supporting some factions while frustrating other factions in the past. Has the old 'rulebook' been torn up and thrown away?

As far as I'm concerned, nope. There's some bugs, but the fundamental mechanics of the BGS are, for the most part, the same.

I mean, sure, conflict sliders are a change, as are the security/economy sliders, but the translation of "Do war things, help the war"/"do positive economic things, boost economy" still apply.
 
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Hmmm... Let's try a different question - have the changes in 3.3 ruined the fun of serious BGS players? I'm not a 'serious' BGS player myself, but I have enjoyed supporting some factions while frustrating other factions in the past. Has the old 'rulebook' been torn up and thrown away?
Very much depends on the circumstances.

Certain bugs have caused serious issues. These seem to be less common than they were at the start of 3.3, but still affect some groups. Still, some of the worst bugs - e.g. the tick not happening at all, or systems being completely stuck for weeks - seem to have been fully sorted. Hopefully they'll get on to the misattribution/negative effect bugs soon.

There are also changes to the BGS 'rulebook' (the things described in the livestream). Largely whether these are positive or negative depends on how you play the BGS ... I think the first-order changes are generally very positive but some of the side effects of them are not. They'll mostly, I think, be an issue for the larger and more "precise" groups who like to maintain absolute control over a 50-system region. The majority of factions, with a few systems each, will probably benefit and find starting out is easier (once the bugs are fixed...) - but of course the larger groups have more visibility.
 
Hmmm... Let's try a different question - have the changes in 3.3 ruined the fun of serious BGS players? I'm not a 'serious' BGS player myself, but I have enjoyed supporting some factions while frustrating other factions in the past. Has the old 'rulebook' been torn up and thrown away?

I’ve been so busy having fun exploring I haven’t helped any brave freedom fighters resist Evil Galactic Federation recently. I must admit that given what I’ve been reading, I’m tempted to see myself how good, or bad, things really are. But for now, the Federal Oligarchs can rest easy in their beds.
 
If by "rulebook" you mean "tattered pile of coffee mug-stained parchments uploaded to a badly formatted wiki like it was an amateur's paranoid interpretation of the Voynich conspiracy", then, yes.

As far as I'm concerned, nope. There's bugs, but the fundamental mechanics of the BGS are, for the most part, the same.

There was stuff that even an amateur like myself could figure out just from the mission descriptions - missions rewarding influence helped a faction's status in the current system, running election pamphlets (whatever they were called) helped a faction win an election, fighting for a faction in a CZ helped them win a war, trading and selling cartographics helped the ruling faction's economic state, destroying innocent ships in a system could lead to a lock-down, etc. I didn't understand the bigger concept things like pushing an expansion or stuff like that, but I enjoyed the basics. Have these things changed?

ps - if any of my previous assumptions were wrong, feel free to correct me!
 
There was stuff that even an amateur like myself could figure out just from the mission descriptions - missions rewarding influence helped a faction's status in the current system, running election pamphlets (whatever they were called) helped a faction win an election, fighting for a faction in a CZ helped them win a war, trading and selling cartographics helped the ruling faction's economic state, destroying innocent ships in a system could lead to a lock-down, etc. I didn't understand the bigger concept things like pushing an expansion or stuff like that, but I enjoyed the basics. Have these things changed?
Essentially not. The basics of "do work for a faction to help them" are largely unchanged. The big intentional difference is that in an Election or War, rather than your actions helping their influence, they help the conflict result slider instead - which then gets given back as an influence change only when the conflict ends.

(There's also what appears to be a bug around bulk exploration data. It's not clear what's happening there)
 
Essentially not. The basics of "do work for a faction to help them" are largely unchanged. The big intentional difference is that in an Election or War, rather than your actions helping their influence, they help the conflict result slider instead - which then gets given back as an influence change only when the conflict ends.

Okay, that's what matters most to me, that my actions aren't being ignored / wasted. I'm not a "down to the tick" player, more of a 'big picture' player when it comes to home systems and favorite factions. It's definitely a "background" simulation in my play style, but for the sake of immersion, I do want to know my actions matter, especially if I'm defending a system against a Thargoid incursion or trying to help my home system become a nicer place.
 
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