Declaration of War against Ronin of Amarak

[Slange Lands]

Just to be clear, Prism dunks on SPEAR because they systematically falsified a combat log report against one of our members. They refused to take it down for days when proven false and kept spamming it on the forums and discords. Additionally, they threatened one of our underage members cryptically saying they would do anything in and out of the game to force him to quit the game.

LHS 3006 is a great benefit to the community in bringing new players up to speed on PVP. The fact that SPEAR thinks they should be the police force and interdicting people going to organized fights is laughable.

I am not going to discuss about the above combat log event because it has been discussed in discord ad nauseum. The accuser has left SPEAR.

It is in the past.

As for the video,Tuldaim, it is beautifully done. I love the use of the Delacroix-like realistic/romantic images typical of 19th century French painting. The pathos and historical importance of the images of the French Revolution in contrast to the absolute non-importance of the conflicts of a video game is very delightful.

However, I must say that I am honored to die for Akuma. Many of my wingmates would willingly die for each other, not only Akuma. Unfortunately, due to my poor piloting technique, Akuma has died far more often for me than I for him. Hopefully, with more practice I can remedy that.

o7

 

[Screemonster]

I believe we all acknowledge that we should aim to get more CMDRs into PvP. Unfortunately some of the old dogs have already given up out of resignation. And Fdev is unfortunately not helping here either. The chasm between the PvE and PvP scene has grown wider and wider. And even many popular streamers are shying away from PvP out of fear to lose followers.

honestly I still think the main problem is the sheer massive disparity between a combat loadout and a noncombat loadout, and the problem isn't even the weapon loadouts, it's the huge health pools you get by giving up all your optional modules for reinforcements

and the meta-weapons for PvP are the weapons that counter that very specific health minmaxing, with PAs to counter resistance builds and feedback rails to counter SCBs

I'd love it if shield resistances were pip-dependent tbh, with something like positive resistances getting their full value at 4 pips and nothing at 0, and negative resistances getting their full value at 2 pips, negated at 4, and doubled at 0.
Likewise make shield boosters boost regen instead of raw HP so your total shield pool is limited to the generator you have on board (and guardian boosters I guess) and regen would be capped at your sys distro

the constant complaint I keep hearing about gankers is "invincible murderboats" but everyone moans about the "murder" part when it's the "invincible" part that's the problem

 

[znôrt]

I'm rather puzzled by the use of the faux parchment, and I'm not entirely sure "honorful" is even a word

probably imperials ...

 

[Gwydion [RoA]]

b.
By teaching (I should say preaching) the mantra that escaping is not as hard as everyone believes. And failing the first time is no shame either. But only practice and experience can get you there. At some point you simply have to accept the fact that you are going to lose your ship eventually. But with the abundance of credits, where is the issue? But what can you do if someone is not even interested into learning and just want to zone out in his space truck simulator?

Lot's of people state "why should I learn" and they are often encouraged to do so by lawfulls. It should be common sense that choosing "OPEN" gives a PvP Flag, potential danger is choosen on purpose then.
Instead of encouraging People to blame Gankers (or PvPers in General) we all should encourage those People to learn how to escape or how to fight.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Just to be clear, Prism dunks on SPEAR because they systematically falsified a combat log report against one of our members. They refused to take it down for days when proven false and kept spamming it on the forums and discords. Additionally, they threatened one of our underage members cryptically saying they would do anything in and out of the game to force him to quit the game.

LHS 3006 is a great benefit to the community in bringing new players up to speed on PVP. The fact that SPEAR thinks they should be the police force and interdicting people going to organized fights is laughable.

I am not going to discuss about the above combat log event because it has been discussed in discord ad nauseum. The accuser has left SPEAR.

It is in the past.

As for the video,Tuldaim, it is beautifully done. I love the use of the Delacroix-like realistic/romantic images typical of 19th century French painting. The pathos and historical importance of the images of the French Revolution in contrast to the absolute non-importance of the conflicts of a video game is very delightful.

However, I must say that I am honored to die for Akuma. Many of my wingmates would willingly die for each other, not only Akuma. Unfortunately, due to my poor piloting technique, Akuma has died far more often for me than I for him. Hopefully, with more practice I can remedy that.

o7

Falsifying combat logs and threatening to drive players out of the game? Those are some extraordinary accusations. As they appear to be true, I'd very much like to know what SPEAR did about it.

 

[Slange Lands]

Falsifying combat logs and threatening to drive players out of the game? Those are some extraordinary accusations. As they appear to be true, I'd very much like to know what SPEAR did about it.

Phisto, what transpired between SPEAR, PRISM, and FDev is not of your concern and certainly none of your business. However, since I do have some respect for you, I will attempt to clarify, which of course you can freely interpret any way you like.

The Combat Logs were not falsified. The now ex-SPEAR member published what he thought was clogging, without the video being properly vetted. SPEAR members are not censored. Stupidly, SPEAR did not immediately seriously examine and denounce the video as being a false accusation. This was in part due to our naivete in not realizing that any action done by a member of SPEAR will reflect immensely on the entire organization.... deservedly or not. Another factor was that the person falsely accused of clogging by the ex-SPEAR member, has a history of posting very insulting remarks in chat to that ex-SPEAR member and his wingmates. In hindsight, the less than polite behavior on the part of the falsely accused, should absolutely not have had any effect on the alacrity with which combat logging accusations should be examined and acted upon. Hopefully we will learn from our mistakes and that history will not repeat itself.

o7

 

[tuldaim]

Slange misrepresented the entire situation.

The actual events with the SPEAR falsifying combat logs was as follows:

1. SPEAR pulled a member of Prism in a 8v1 or something like that. The PZM member high waked out of the instance.
2. A single CMDR from SPEAR's recorded a high wake bug (a relatively frequent bug) where a high wake doesn't show up when the CMDR jumps out of instance. In his video, you could see the PZM CMDR charge up is high wake, jump out, but there was no high wake left behind. Everyone else in the instance could see the high wake from the PZM CMDR.
3. The SPEAR CMDR immediately reported the "combat log" and made a video with commentary accusing the PZM commander of combat logging.
4. SPEAR brigaded the combat log video by posting it to every available forum and discord asking that everyone report the PZM commander in game. They listed him as a combat logger on the subreddit and reported him to the community discords such as GCI. A large group of SPEAR was using the video to report the PZM CMDR to FDev for combat logging.
5. I approached members of SPEAR about the incident where I said it was an obvious high wake bug.
6. Two member groups of SPEAR agreed with me, and the rest refused to discuss it.
7. SPEAR continues to brigade the video and demands a video from the PZM CMDR (who wasn't recording himself getting ganked) and provide his logs.
8. The PZM CMDR provided his logs immediately, and I was told that Akuma refused to ask anyone to remove the video because there was no video from the PZM CMDR's side. Akuma also admitted that the SPEAR video didn't show a combat log but a high wake bug.
9. I spent the next three days asking SPEAR members to remove the video or kick the offenders, but they refused. Finally the two groups that I approached were able to convince the rest of SPEAR to stop reporting the PZM CMDR.
10. The PZM CMDR got an account warning for combat logging.
11. I asked for help from SPEAR to discuss with FDev to admit their brigaded combat log reports were erroneous and they refused. They were outright hostile to me for asking and continue to maintain that stance.

SPEAR never took any responsibility or instituted any disciplinary action. The offending CMDR didn't leave SPEAR until about 2 months later for unrelated reasons. They claim that the PZM member deserved it because he made a "your mom" joke to some of their members.

 

[Bigmaec]

Slange misrepresented the entire situation.

The actual events with the SPEAR falsifying combat logs was as follows:

1. SPEAR pulled a member of Prism in a 8v1 or something like that. The PZM member high waked out of the instance.
2. A single CMDR from SPEAR's recorded a high wake bug (a relatively frequent bug) where a high wake doesn't show up when the CMDR jumps out of instance. In his video, you could see the PZM CMDR charge up is high wake, jump out, but there was no high wake left behind. Everyone else in the instance could see the high wake from the PZM CMDR.
3. The SPEAR CMDR immediately reported the "combat log" and made a video with commentary accusing the PZM commander of combat logging.
4. SPEAR brigaded the combat log video by posting it to every available forum and discord asking that everyone report the PZM commander in game. They listed him as a combat logger on the subreddit and reported him to the community discords such as GCI. A large group of SPEAR was using the video to report the PZM CMDR to FDev for combat logging.
5. I approached members of SPEAR about the incident where I said it was an obvious high wake bug.
6. Two member groups of SPEAR agreed with me, and the rest refused to discuss it.
7. SPEAR continues to brigade the video and demands a video from the PZM CMDR (who wasn't recording himself getting ganked) and provide his logs.
8. The PZM CMDR provided his logs immediately, and I was told that Akuma refused to ask anyone to remove the video because there was no video from the PZM CMDR's side. Akuma also admitted that the SPEAR video didn't show a combat log but a high wake bug.
9. I spent the next three days asking SPEAR members to remove the video or kick the offenders, but they refused. Finally the two groups that I approached were able to convince the rest of SPEAR to stop reporting the PZM CMDR.
10. The PZM CMDR got an account warning for combat logging.
11. I asked for help from SPEAR to discuss with FDev to admit their brigaded combat log reports were erroneous and they refused. They were outright hostile to me for asking and continue to maintain that stance.

SPEAR never took any responsibility or instituted any disciplinary action. The offending CMDR didn't leave SPEAR until about 2 months later for unrelated reasons. They claim that the PZM member deserved it because he made a "your mom" joke to some of their members.

And this is why clogging witch hunts are crap. Regardless of side.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

And this is why clogging witch hunts are crap. Regardless of side.

Specific to this case though, that's another really bad look for SPEAR.

 

[Slange Lands]

Slange misrepresented the entire situation.

The actual events with the SPEAR falsifying combat logs was as follows:

1. SPEAR pulled a member of Prism in a 8v1 or something like that. The PZM member high waked out of the instance.
2. A single CMDR from SPEAR's recorded a high wake bug (a relatively frequent bug) where a high wake doesn't show up when the CMDR jumps out of instance. In his video, you could see the PZM CMDR charge up is high wake, jump out, but there was no high wake left behind. Everyone else in the instance could see the high wake from the PZM CMDR.
3. The SPEAR CMDR immediately reported the "combat log" and made a video with commentary accusing the PZM commander of combat logging.
4. SPEAR brigaded the combat log video by posting it to every available forum and discord asking that everyone report the PZM commander in game. They listed him as a combat logger on the subreddit and reported him to the community discords such as GCI. A large group of SPEAR was using the video to report the PZM CMDR to FDev for combat logging.
5. I approached members of SPEAR about the incident where I said it was an obvious high wake bug.
6. Two member groups of SPEAR agreed with me, and the rest refused to discuss it.
7. SPEAR continues to brigade the video and demands a video from the PZM CMDR (who wasn't recording himself getting ganked) and provide his logs.
8. The PZM CMDR provided his logs immediately, and I was told that Akuma refused to ask anyone to remove the video because there was no video from the PZM CMDR's side. Akuma also admitted that the SPEAR video didn't show a combat log but a high wake bug.
9. I spent the next three days asking SPEAR members to remove the video or kick the offenders, but they refused. Finally the two groups that I approached were able to convince the rest of SPEAR to stop reporting the PZM CMDR.
10. The PZM CMDR got an account warning for combat logging.
11. I asked for help from SPEAR to discuss with FDev to admit their brigaded combat log reports were erroneous and they refused. They were outright hostile to me for asking and continue to maintain that stance.

SPEAR never took any responsibility or instituted any disciplinary action. The offending CMDR didn't leave SPEAR until about 2 months later for unrelated reasons. They claim that the PZM member deserved it because he made a "your mom" joke to some of their members.

Thank you for your side of the story, Tuldaim. Since I was not as active in SPEAR as I am now, you may indeed have more of the facts. I have admitted that SPEAR made mistakes. However, there were more than two SPEAR members who decried the combat log accusation. I also did. I very deliberately added a comment below the accusatory video slamming the publishing of videos that were not properly vetted.

No one member is "in charge" of SPEAR.

The lack of immediate "correct" action is awful, I agree. However, the inaction was exacerbated by the falsely accused having repeatedly and cruelly insulting some members of SPEAR. Yes, most PvPers would agree that combat logging is "more awful" than insults in a computer game. However, insults do take their toll and effect us emotionally. When our emotions are affected, reason sometimes goes to pot.

It was a question of doing right by someone who has hurt us, or slamming a friend who made an awful choice.

Since it is impossible to compare internal states, I can understand how you may view an insult involving the sexual activities of one's mother to be "par for the course" in a video game and of no import in comparison to clogging. But, of course, I disagree.

To my knowledge, ESCA filed a report on the falsely accused for his insults and not for the combat log. If the falsely accused received an account warning for clogging, then 1. It was not due to ESCA 2. FDev made a mistake and gave him the incorrect reason for the account warning.

Fdev has all the telemetry and would obviously know that the falsely accused was indeed falsely accused.

I don't know what else to say except that hopefully SPEAR will learn from its mistakes and history will not repeat itself.

I understand if Prizm continues to "dunk" on SPEAR. It is your right and choice.

o7

 

[Slange Lands]

Specific to this case though, that's another really bad look for SPEAR.

Regardless of what outlaws or any other PvP group claims or believes about SPEAR, SPEAR will continue to try to help Open be more safe for PvEers and Carebears.

Kill us, defame us, point out our mistakes with glee.
That's totally cool.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Considering how the Prism pilot was treated by SPEAR sounds to me like the insults were deserved.

You all falsely accused him of combat logging and then when he took issue with it gathered the mob to brigade him. FDEV's ineptitude (relying on user submitted reports instead of in-game metrics) in dishing out a warning for combat logging does not excuse you in the slightest.

Regardless of what outlaws or any other PvP group claims or believes about SPEAR, SPEAR will continue to try to help Open be more safe for PvEers and Carebears.

Kill us, defame us, point out our mistakes with glee.
That's totally cool.

I take no glee in this. You're not safeguarding anyone. You're enabling some truly atrocious behavior.

 

[Arguendo]

This thread is moving quite OT at the moment.
Either move back to discussing the OP and the "war", or I'll have to look through my cupboard to find the padlock I think I left there.
Thanks.

 

[Slange Lands]

Considering how the Prism pilot was treated by SPEAR sounds to me like the insults were deserved.

You all falsely accused him of combat logging and then when he took issue with it gathered the mob to brigade him. FDEV's ineptitude (relying on user submitted reports instead of in-game metrics) in dishing out a warning for combat logging does not excuse you in the slightest.



I take no glee in this. You're not safeguarding anyone. You're enabling some truly atrocious behavior.

Atrocious?

Phisto, that is very much a value judgement. Some would say that the decimation of hundreds of exploration fitted ships joyfully about to leave on an epic journey is atrocious. Just because griefing and ganking are allowed under the ToS does not lesson the "atrociousness" of DG2's behavior in my value system.

As far as I know, FDev does not censor videos of player activity. Neither does SPEAR.

SPEAR made mistakes. However, most of us would not dream of publishing false accusations. It happened once. Does that make all of us at SPEAR enablers?

The falsely accused was insulting, but most outlaws are not. Does the silence of the more "polite" outlaws thus make them enablers of repeated insulting? Does the cheating of one outlaw affect my view of all outlaws? Absolutely not.

Go ahead, make any event involving SPEAR an "us vs them" situation.
Go ahead, ignore our individuality.

It's all good.

 

[StevieG]

So who won the war then? Did we get that high wake count?

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Atrocious?

Phisto, that is very much a value judgement. Some would say that the decimation of hundreds of exploration fitted ships joyfully about to leave on an epic journey is atrocious. Just because griefing and ganking are allowed under the ToS does not lesson the "atrociousness" of DG2's behavior in my value system.

The above is condoned by the game's mechanics. Making false clogger reports to FDEV is not.

When you set yourself up as the lawful heroes of Elite it only takes handling one situation like PRISM's poorly to screw it up for everyone. If this was going on in Loren's Legion, we'd be undergoing some serious soul searching. If that process didn't resolve itself to my satisfaction I would completely disassociate myself from Loren's Legion.

@Arguendo This is on topic. It's part of the background of the conflict between RoA and SPEAR and what resulted from the situation in LHS 3006.

 

[Gwydion [RoA]]

If you can’t stand ‚ur mom‘ jokes, you should not be in PvP.

 

[tuldaim]

To my knowledge, ESCA filed a report on the falsely accused for his insults and not for the combat log. If the falsely accused received an account warning for clogging, then 1. It was not due to ESCA 2. FDev made a mistake and gave him the incorrect reason for the account warning.

The account warning was for combat logging and ESCA showed themselves reporting him for combat logging in their video that was promoted and brigaded by SPEAR. We even provided a copy of the account warning to prove it, but SPEAR has continued to lie about it after receiving proof.

 

[Arguendo]

Guess there was no interest, so that leaves the last word to Tuldaim.
Thread closed.