Design 101 - Players must ALWAYS have choice to avoid or run instead of fight
- Thread starter Yokai
- Start date
So how does a Pirate get money by interdicting exploration vessels refueling at the sun, that don't carry any cargo? How does it justify the high risk of blowing up with heat issues generated by the vicinity, or blowing up because the interdictee shoots back?
So you are saying people with little interest in combat should not do exploring / rare trade runs / mining etc.?
Sorry, that's ridiculous.
Combat is only a small aspect of the overall game, it should not be constantly forced on people. Right now, it is like every time you go to the mall, go to work, meet your friends, some random stranger attacks you. More realistically would be if you go out looking for a bar fight that you are actually attacked.
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This game is far to imbalanced to be fully enjoyable in my opinion. Only parts of it are enjoyable.
There is a fine line between game mechanics and fun, ED is crossing that line gradually, making this game a grind, this will result in current players convincing potential players to not buy the game.
Many MMO's went down said path of ignoring their clientele, it always end the same.
Interdictions are a hastle, there is no way to avoid it and the cost of failure is expensive, especially for a trader. If you have a big and expensive ship or a ship with a power FSD then intridictions should be more difficult on the one interdicting but no.
There always have to be options because if you force everyone into the same cookie cutter scenario, it will not end well.
Personally I would like to see Intridictions nerfed on the interdicted, simply because of the value involved. When I trade I make on average 1K per ton, I am not a very talented trader but I do try to hunt for good deals. A single failed intridiction on my main ship, my ASP Cost me 60+ K.
I have yet to loose my ASP but I do agree that for a trader this game is harsh. The potential profit margins are great (I said potential because the profit margins are gradually decreasing) but at the same time the cost of being destroyed by a cheap ship is insane.
I rather like the EVE online approach. In high security sectors, if you fire on a non-combatant you risk being blown up by system security, and that is an absolute.
There is a fine line between game mechanics and fun, ED is crossing that line gradually, making this game a grind, this will result in current players convincing potential players to not buy the game.
Many MMO's went down said path of ignoring their clientele, it always end the same.
Interdictions are a hastle, there is no way to avoid it and the cost of failure is expensive, especially for a trader. If you have a big and expensive ship or a ship with a power FSD then intridictions should be more difficult on the one interdicting but no.
There always have to be options because if you force everyone into the same cookie cutter scenario, it will not end well.
Personally I would like to see Intridictions nerfed on the interdicted, simply because of the value involved. When I trade I make on average 1K per ton, I am not a very talented trader but I do try to hunt for good deals. A single failed intridiction on my main ship, my ASP Cost me 60+ K.
I have yet to loose my ASP but I do agree that for a trader this game is harsh. The potential profit margins are great (I said potential because the profit margins are gradually decreasing) but at the same time the cost of being destroyed by a cheap ship is insane.
I rather like the EVE online approach. In high security sectors, if you fire on a non-combatant you risk being blown up by system security, and that is an absolute.
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Just an Idea really which would allow pirates to be proper pirates
(ie not being forced to open fire immediately because the target is going to SC straight away)
This would be for PVP interdictions only, as i think the being interdicted by npc's is not such a big deal, you can't talk back to them its either fight or run.
There is a 20-40 second cooldown time on damage inflicting weapons, standard kws and cs's should function as normal, and the FSD cooldown timer is increased to take into account this period.
In this time the pirate can state their intentions via comms, and the interdicted can weigh up the situation, either drop cargo or prepare to run like hell.
It would allow for more comms interaction between players.
Just an idea don't know how well it would work in practice.
(ie not being forced to open fire immediately because the target is going to SC straight away)
This would be for PVP interdictions only, as i think the being interdicted by npc's is not such a big deal, you can't talk back to them its either fight or run.
There is a 20-40 second cooldown time on damage inflicting weapons, standard kws and cs's should function as normal, and the FSD cooldown timer is increased to take into account this period.
In this time the pirate can state their intentions via comms, and the interdicted can weigh up the situation, either drop cargo or prepare to run like hell.
It would allow for more comms interaction between players.
Just an idea don't know how well it would work in practice.
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Combat was always a huge aspect of elite. Your analogy of going to the mall doesn't work either. You're not going to the mall, you're flying a spaceship through barely policed star systems. Why would you expect it to be safe?
Real life explorers carried weapons....remember all those stories about pirates,bandits,hostile natives?
To answer your question about pirates interdicting a fuel scooping ship.....you're an easy target, you're low on fuel, moving slow.....who knows what's in your hold or if you have a bounty. There's only one way to find out.
Real life explorers carried weapons....remember all those stories about pirates,bandits,hostile natives?
To answer your question about pirates interdicting a fuel scooping ship.....you're an easy target, you're low on fuel, moving slow.....who knows what's in your hold or if you have a bounty. There's only one way to find out.
Sorry - but that is simply not true. Player interdictions and most npc can be almost completely avoided by flying right and keeping your eyes open. I'm not sure that even the surprise ones can be avoided by giving USS's a wide birth.
That's certainly how you and many traders see it yes.
BUT, then again, you could always play solo or private if you don't want that stuff.
If you play in open then you've signed up to participate in all that takes place there, including piracy.
It's your choice to play in an enviroment where people can be pirates.
It's like playing GTA V online and complaining about someone shooting you or blowing up your car.
It's part of the package.
Don't like it? Don't play it. (open play that is)
You know, for the amount of times that Traders spew out their slogans of "your freedom ends where mine begins" or "your way of playing the game shouldn't be forced on me", it's surprising that none of you realise that it works both ways.
You are effectively hindering other players from playing as Pirates simply because you don't like them doing so.
But you have the choice of not participating in Open play. But instead you want to force Open play into some sort of PvE enviroment just because you don't like being interdicted, when all you have to do is play solo or private instead. YOU are forcing YOUR playstyle on THEM.
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No, because they'll make more money per run no matter if they play open play or not.
But you can keep pushing the scaretactic that "everyone will play solo or group if pirates are allowed" all you want, because it doesn't really matter.
The game doesn't live or die by the amount of players in open play.
There are plenty of pirates and bounty hunters that don't play open play either. They're still having fun.
The point here is that if you CHOOSE to play in an Open PvP enviroment, then DON'T complain about the PvP.
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They don't make money off that.
There are pirates and then there are people who just like killing other people.
There's a difference, you know.
If you want the EVE online approach, I should also be able to steal some of your modules (others may explode) upon ship destruction and sell them on the market. Your insurance should also only cover the base hull and E rated modules. Now we have reason to actually shoot clean targets if we scan that they have really good modules, suicide kill your clean ship, and then have a friend pick up the loot. I would be all for that gameplay if security ships instantly kill you within 30 seconds if you fire on a clean target. This would add a great deal to gameplay IMO as it actually gives us a reason to use the lower rated modules, not to mention that death will actually cost you if you fly around will a fully pimped out ship. Just imagine, x10 vipers jump on an anaconda with a few good modules, kill it within 30 seconds (10 Vipers should masslock an Anaconda, as group masslock really needs to be a thing), they all die to security ships, the looter in an Imperial Clipper comes in and picks up an undamaged A7 thruster and other assorted modules (will need cargospace to hold these of course), and splits out the money between the group with the new money transfer feature in game (or not, if you want to risk the wrath of 10 angry players for your own gain). It would be great for emergent gameplay!
Personally, I believe a game that lets anyone run away to be utterly ridiculous. If you want to win all the time and never lose, why not play a game of chess against yourself? It would be operating on the same principles as this "everyone gets to run and live" 'design principle'.
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When you stop complaining about traders extending and escaping I'm sure we'll have a deal.
Eeh no.
If you have little to no interest in combat, don't play in an open world enviroment.
To use your analogy, going to the mall with your friends would be playing the game in private group.
Everything is still there, but it's safe and you're with friends.
Playing in open play is going down that dark alleyway in the bad part of town to buy some stolen goods. Sure, you might get a great price on a BluRay player, but you might also get mugged.
I'm sorry. I didn't realise FD had appointed somebody the arbiter of what can and cannot be complained about. If I or anyone else sees a problem the way, in this example, PvP is conducted then we still have the right (some would say responsibility) to post on it. Or have FD changed their mind on feed back 'good or bad as long as it is polite'?
Difference is that a Trader submitting to an interdiction is a 99% get-out-of-interdicton-free card.
The whole discussion is around the broken submission mechanic that lets you jump away after a five second cooldown on your FSD which makes it pretty much impossible for anything smaller than a python to even dent your shields before you jump.
THAT'S the point here.
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So you're saying that someone that plays in an Open World PvP enviroment is perfectly fine in saying "why are people PvP'ing all the time, just leave me alone!"?
Because that's like a boxer going into the ring and telling the opponent that he really likes boxing and all, but he's not allowed to hit him.
The complaints aren't about HOW PvP is conducted, it's about it being conducted at all, in case you haven't noticed.
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"The point here is that if you CHOOSE to play in an Open PvP enviroment, then DON'T complain about the PvP."
And yet here you are crying becasue you cant shoot traders, and are DEMANDING that the Game be changed so you can shoot traders..........
....
Maybe you should just get better at it, yeah?
And yet here you are crying becasue you cant shoot traders, and are DEMANDING that the Game be changed so you can shoot traders..........
....
Maybe you should just get better at it, yeah?
Only when facing the unskilled shower who call themselves pirates around here. The actual, skilled pirates do fine. It's the rewards that are the issue.
But in my experience of games with PvP devs always end up giving in to the crowd who want the game lowered to their skill level rather than those who crack on and get better.
A: I don't pirate.
B: It's not about skill... it's about there being a significantly reduced cooldown of the FSD when submitting, making it nigh-impossible to get through the shields of a trader with anything smaller than a fully kitted-out anaconda.
C: It's a complaint about the lack of PvP, which is certainly ok in a PvP enviroment.
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No it's not.
It doesn't matter how much skill you have, a 7-8 second window from interdiction to jump is not enough for anyone to take out a ship of anything near equal size.
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Please stop putting words in my mouth, it is a very poor debating tactic. What I AM saying is that FD have asked for feed back both good and bad. People had detected a problem and are posting on it. It is not up to you or anyone else to try and prevent this debate taking place.
When did they remove NPC traders you can interdict as a Pirate?
I see plenty of people trying to prevent the debate from happening.
Including you with your fear-mongering "everyone will just go solo" type statements.
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They didn't, but who is saying that they should not be allowed to interdict player traders in an open world PvP enviroment?
Because that's what I'm hearing alot here.
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You can keep repeating that all you want but real pirates are doing fine. Not saying things don't need adjusting but skilled pilots are making it work. In my brief bounty hunting career (pre 1.1 so might not work now) I just learned to shoot straight with rail guns and cannons.
Seemed a lot quicker and more fun than coming here and bending devs ears.