Destroying Thargoids without killing all the hearts cheating/exploit?

[Zero_Gravity_360]

I've looked around and can't get a straight answer and the ones I get say you're pretty much a piece of for not killing them the right way. How I see it destroying the hearts make killing the Thargoid easier but not needed to get the job done. Like how it's not needed to destroy a ships power planet or other modules to kill their ship. Taking out a heart simply stops the thargoid form being able to fully heal its hull. If taking out the heart was truly needed and the right way to do it then you shouldn't be able to do more damage to the thargoid's hull past a cretin point till a heart is taken out. Some of those players that say you're a piece of for doing that have used FCs or Station to kill thargoids, which don't destroy their hearts they out damage their hulls to kill them. Even killing a thargoid when it has 2 hearts or one left by accident because the wing I'm in is just out damaging its healing is bad and I get told we are exploiting and don't deserve the bounty. (Also sometimes you have to kill without killing its hearts as there is a bug that makes a thargoid heart invincible)

 

[Jmanis]

Of course it isn't.

 

[Tezzward]

it's no more cheating/exploiting than it is to engineer a ship and easily take out targets in a haz res. That's the whole point of engineering to really high levels, take on harder tasks much more easily.

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

Of course it isn't.

it's no more cheating/exploiting than it is to engineer a ship and easily take out targets in a haz res. That's the whole point of engineering to really high levels, take on harder tasks much more easily.

I disagree. The idea that it is no different from engineering your ship quite misses the mark. Engineering your ship does not circumvent game mechanics and mash them into a pulp. I find that most people who argue along these lines are unfamiliar with how Thargoid Interceptor combat is supposed to work.

While it may not be labelled directly by FDev as an exploit, it is certainly not how things are intended to work. I would place it on the same level as the subsurface deposit respawn exploit. It is possible to do in-game using the "tools available to us" without relogging and I do not think there will be any consequences for people that do it, but it is not the way it is intended and now that it has also become a possible credit grind it might hopefully attract FDev's attention so that it finally gets fixed (AX community has been trying to get this addressed for years). Hopefully without breaking AX combat completely ...

On the other hand, credits are anyway inconsequential and you can't really gib anything higher than a cyclops solo. So what's the point? Just seeing something go "boom" without any sense of actual achievement? Just screwing over the leaderboards for people who don't want to mindlessly gib 10 cyclopes per hour?

Edit: To add to the issue of engineering. It is actually the reverse to what you describe. You need significantly less engineering to gib than to do the fight properly. That in itself should ring some bells.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

As it stands today... yes, but technically no?

It’s certainly frowned upon by parts of the AX community, and personally I think it’s kinda cheesy. Goids are a blast to fight, and to just vaporize one immediately has to get old after the first couple times.

I don’t think it’s been addressed by Fdev officially, but it hardly seems like an intended gameplay mechanic. The thargoids are supposed to be challenging, not popped faster than an NPC in a hazres.

Like, these are boss-level enemies being killed in seconds of fire. Seems a little outta whack.

 

[Ydiss]

Keep raising its profile though. It might get fixed faster. +1

 

[Northpin]

While it may not be labelled directly by FDev as an exploit, it is certainly not how things are intended to work.

Same for relogging at Dav's, right? or in a Guardian site (which was done during a live stream, or so i was told)
And all those are fully acknowledged and accepted by FD.

It may not be 100% intended, but it seems to be designed in a way that makes it possible - as in: put enough pressure on something and it will break eventually - and i find it quite realistic.

Sure, they could put in hard stops.
As in divide hitpoints by the number of hearts and tie those 2 things together.
So the hipoints pool of a Cyclops with 1 heart gone can never drop below 80% no matter how much damage it takes. And so on.
That would make sure one has to go through all the hearts to get a kill...

But would this add to the fun of it? or it would make it even more static and artificial than it currently is

 

[DMaster]

Why should it be ok to fast gank a player, but not fast gank a thargoid??? Same rights for all!

 

[Bigmaec]

Why should it be ok to fast gank a player, but not fast gank a thargoid??? Same rights for all!

Thargoids use shields and hull, players don't

 

[Jmanis]

I disagree. The idea that it is no different from engineering your ship quite misses the mark. Engineering your ship does not circumvent game mechanics and mash them into a pulp. I find that most people who argue along these lines are unfamiliar with how Thargoid Interceptor combat is supposed to work.

While it may not be labelled directly by FDev as an exploit, it is certainly not how things are intended to work. I would place it on the same level as the subsurface deposit respawn exploit. It is possible to do in-game using the "tools available to us" without relogging and I do not think there will be any consequences for people that do it, but it is not the way it is intended and now that it has also become a possible credit grind it might hopefully attract FDev's attention so that it finally gets fixed (AX community has been trying to get this addressed for years). Hopefully without breaking AX combat completely ...

On the other hand, credits are anyway inconsequential and you can't really gib anything higher than a cyclops solo. So what's the point? Just seeing something go "boom" without any sense of actual achievement? Just screwing over the leaderboards for people who don't want to mindlessly gib 10 cyclopes per hour?

Edit: To add to the issue of engineering. It is actually the reverse to what you describe. You need significantly less engineering to gib than to do the fight properly. That in itself should ring some bells.

So how do you feel about routing a capital ship without taking out it's heatsinks, with neutralising it's heatsinks being the intended gameplay ?

 

[Factabulous]

Same for relogging at Dav's, right? or in a Guardian site (which was done during a live stream, or so i was told)
And all those are fully acknowledged and accepted by FD.

<yawn> Nope.

Arf has said one of his priorities* is to address the relog spamming. And the fact that fdev did something on a stream is just them accepting how the game is, not endorsing it.

But OTOH it's not worth getting too upset about most of these issues - even the Egg was around for weeks, mining imbalance for years. The most I'd hope for would be Cyclops payouts being reduced again in the new year, they could even do a Galnet about CMDRs being unexpectedly successful against them, so the PF is reducing pay. The userbase has proved time after time that even if something is dumb and boring gameplay they will do it for the $$$ in their bank account. Weirdos need protecting from themselves

* Then again it was over 2 years ago that one of the CMs said that the Colonia Engineers being more advanced than the bubble ones needed addressing, and we can see how that went. i.e. unchanged.

 

[Brrokk]

I've looked around and can't get a straight answer and the ones I get say you're pretty much a piece of poopoo for not killing them the right way. How I see it destroying the hearts make killing the Thargoid easier but not needed to get the job done. Like how it's not needed to destroy a ships power planet or other modules to kill their ship. Taking out a heart simply stops the thargoid form being able to fully heal its hull. If taking out the heart was truly needed and the right way to do it then you shouldn't be able to do more damage to the thargoid's hull past a cretin point till a heart is taken out. Some of those players that say you're a piece of poopoo for doing that have used FCs or Station to kill thargoids, which don't destroy their hearts they out damage their hulls to kill them. Even killing a thargoid when it has 2 hearts or one left by accident because the wing I'm in is just out damaging its healing is bad and I get told we are exploiting and don't deserve the bounty. (Also sometimes you have to kill without killing its hearts as there is a bug that makes a thargoid heart invincible)

No, of course not.

On this and every other issue, take no notice of the people who want to make you play their way. Within the ToS, enjoy the game however you want.

 

[Jmanis]

But OTOH it's not worth getting too upset about most of these issues - even the Egg was around for weeks, mining imbalance for years. The most I'd hope for would be Cyclops payouts being reduced again in the new year, they could even do a Galnet about CMDRs being unexpectedly successful against them, so the PF is reducing pay.

Yup... if ganking cyclops is paying too much, then it should be nixed (just like massacre stacking...). Personally, I was very surprised when Cyclops were pumped to 8m... I always envisioned a more logarithmic payout.

Ganking Cyclops paying out an unbalanced volume of credits? Definitely a valid argument. Ganking Cyclops an exploit? That's a dangerous rabbit hole to go down and has a whole bunch of implications about a huge amount of fairly routine game loops that people wouldn't even realise are exploits, if this was the definition of such a thing.

 

[Brrokk]

Yup... if ganking cyclops is paying too much, then it should be nixed (just like massacre stacking...). Personally, I was very surprised when Cyclops were pumped to 8m... I always envisioned a more logarithmic payout.

Ganking Cyclops paying out an unbalanced volume of credits? Definitely a valid argument. Ganking Cyclops an exploit? That's a dangerous rabbit hole to go down and has a whole bunch of implications about a huge amount of fairly routine game loops that people wouldn't even realise are exploits, if this was the definition of such a thing.

8M is less than one jump with some stacked delivery missions, so I doubt that the Cyclops activity is really overpaid now. Even if every kill is guaranteed and risk-free, we must factor in the time needed to find each Cyclops when calculating an hourly rate. I think the toughest Thargoids should pay even more though.

 

[Northpin]

And the fact that fdev did something on a stream is just them accepting how the game is, not endorsing it.

And all those are fully acknowledged and accepted by FD.

Well, i did said acknowledged and accepted, i did not say endorsed.

A not intended way ot doing things might be accepted, permitted and even meta - until it is changed.
But it is not an exploit/cheat since those activities are breaking the law and are / should be punishable.

So, by extension, i'd say that any in-game activity that is not breaking the laws, hence it is not punishable - it is permitted and accepted

We're not fans of the current meta for material gathering and well aware of how grindy it is. Re-logging being the best method is especially not something we want for Elite. Alternatives are an ongoing discussion with dev - as soon as plans are made, we'll let the community know.


I cant wait for them to change it, but until then, if i will need some fast encoded materials and my MEF/DME stock is not enough to make up for the need by trading, i will pop at the good old J and do some relogging.

Same thing, i will do Cyclops based on my mood - either with my gauss Challenger or with my Shard Conda.
No method is cheating and both have their unique fun factor attached.
And if they will change it, so be it - until then, we're good gibbing them Thargs pretty much a g5 murderboad is good gibbing a novice eagle in a massacre mission.

 

[GroG79]

New thargoid payouts are too high. This payout opens the door for exploits. This post is the proof.

 

[Northpin]

8M is less than one jump with some stacked delivery missions, so I doubt that the Cyclops activity is really overpaid now. Even if every kill is guaranteed and risk-free, we must factor in the time needed to find each Cyclops when calculating an hourly rate. I think the toughest Thargoids should pay even more though.

The problem with vouchers is the fact that everyone gets the full value out of it.
8 millions might not seem much. But a wing of 4 get 32 millions. And if they go for basilisks they get even more.

So i would not really diminish the value - but i would make sure it is split between 'goid gankers...
However, i'm pretty sure it is not as easy as it seems, cause we know, with ED there is always more than it meets the eye

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

So how do you feel about routing a capital ship without taking out it's heatsinks, with neutralising it's heatsinks being the intended gameplay ?

I have no opinion since I very rarely do CZs (they bore me).

 

[MishaTX]

Seems to me it always comes down to a discussion of what "too much" is, which is an exercise in futility, as it's utterly subjective (within reason).

I don't buy the "somebody who's really good at a difficult activity can make a lot of dough in a short time, so it should be nerfed" argument, though.

Sure gibbing a dozen 'goids might be child's play to AXI aces, but it sure ain't to me, so why should the rewards for pilots like me be determined by the amount of credits somebody who's spent hundreds of hours perfecting quite difficult skills can make? In fact, why shouldn't those highly skilled pilots be rewarded handsomely for their efforts? It's not like they just strapped a bunch of mining lasers on a shieldless Cutter and went off to hold the trigger for a couple of hours at Borann (back when that particular nonsense was a thing).

 

[DMaster]

New thargoid payouts are too high. This payout opens the door for exploits. This post is the proof.

No, they are not too high for me. You just speak from your point of view, how fast you can kill them. For me, it takes a minimum 20 minutes to kill a cyclops and be ready again for the next, that means 24 million per hour for a high risk activity. Not really that much!