Destroying Thargoids without killing all the hearts cheating/exploit?

[[VR] Orodruin]

It's not intended, players are grouping up to attack to accomplish a goal that the game intended to be accomplished solo.

Seems emergent to me.

Except you can gib a clops solo.

Coincidentally, when I first saw a video which used cold orbiting to completely avoid things like the corrosive missiles, the "eye lightning" and such, I thought "Man, that's a pretty cheese strategy. Surely that can't be intentional, just nullifying all those things with a ship that simply stays out of range and untouchable". Surely FD wouldn't have intended put in things like corrosive damage, which puts a hard limit on how long you can stay in the fight unless you deal with it, the field neutraliser and other stuff, just to use a tactic that completely ignores those things.

But ofc, I learned what underpinned those strategies and thought "Well, if it works for them I guess?", rather than flying around accusations of exploits just because it was a tactic I didn't use.

Except that cold orbiting requires actual flying skills, active avoidance, and a good ship and not just button mashing. The attacks still occur. Also, you can’t just stay out of range as gauss dropoff starts at 1.5km and anything above 2km will see severe damage penalty. The range of an interceptor’s main cannon is 3km.

So, lets ask in the AMA, if the discussed mechanic is intended or not, if we are lucky, we get an answer and the discussion is over!

Please go ahead. I will be surprised if you get an actual answer as AXI has tried asking exactly this question for years without a straight answer.

 

[FlyingBrickyard]

Except that cold orbiting requires actual flying skills, active avoidance, and a good ship and not just button mashing.

Doesn't matter. It wasn't the intended method and it bypasses intended mechanics* - so by your argument - it's an exploit. Anything other than a straight up, eat the majority of the damage slug fest engagement is.

Most people would consider that a ridiculous claim, but this appears to be the hill you've chosen to die on.

Spoiler: *

Which you claim to know despite never being told as much by the people who designed it.

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

Doesn't matter. It wasn't the intended method and it bypasses intended mechanics* - so by your argument - it's an exploit. Anything other than a straight up, eat the majority of the damage slug fest engagement is.

Most people would consider that a ridiculous claim, but this appears to be the hill you've chosen to die on.

That's a non sequitur argument and you know it. Of course it matters in terms of good game design. Good game design is that people that develop particular skills and spend time and effort on equipping their ships can do things that people that do not can't.

Calling things ridiculous doesn't really bolster your argument either. Apart from maybe with people who like cheesing through games in God-mode without ever having to develop the skills needed to beat things normally.

 

[Tezzward]

Unless they're dropping into your instance and killing a thargoid that you've been trying to kill, how does it affect your gameplay at all?

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

Unless they're dropping into your instance and killing a thargoid that you've been trying to kill, how does it affect your gameplay at all?

Direct gameplay, no. Indirect gameplay and interaction with the community and fresh AX pilots that actually want to improve their skills: severely. I am sure you can figure out the details.

 

[Tezzward]

So other people being able to kill it quickly blocks other people from improving their skills? How so?

Indirect gameplay and interaction with the community? Those sound more like "you" issues.

Basically, the gist that I'm getting is that other players instantly killing them hurts your feelings and nothing more. If you value the skill that you possess in taking them out, why is it so easily negated by someone that can't tangibly affect your gameplay?

In my personal opinion, the people who complain about people not playing as "purely" as they would like hurt the chances of fresh AX pilots becoming interested. There is nothing about those most vocally against gibbing in this thread that makes me think "gee, I'd love to get tips from and play with these guys". I'll stick to watching CMDRs on youtube doing the exact same dance every time to get my fix on pure thargoid killing and just stay away from anti xeno unless I need engineering mats.

 

[FlyingBrickyard]

That's a non sequitur argument...

And it's your argument, not mine. So it's good to see you finally acknowledging it.

As you've framed it, either you deal with the mechanics and fight precisely as intended* when designed, or it's an exploit.

To remain internally consistent, this by necessity must then include all creative solutions FDev didn't foresee - no matter what level of skill you feel is required to somehow excuse bypassing 'intended mechanics'. You can't pick and choose which exploit to bless or condemn at your whim if it's a legitimate argument.

But it's not a legitimate argument. It's the face you'd like to try to put on your actual argument - which you've conveyed as, "I'm offended that people play the game a certain way, even though it has no effect on my experience."

Direct gameplay, no.

So "no", then.

Spoiler: *

Again, with you presuming to tell everyone you know precisely what the devs intended, despite the devs never making concrete statements on the matter.

In short, you've started with a conclusion and worked backward to what "must be the truth!" Not because it is correct, but because it is comfortable.

 

[Jmanis]

Except that cold orbiting requires actual flying skills, active avoidance, and a good ship and not just button mashing. The attacks still occur. Also, you can’t just stay out of range as gauss dropoff starts at 1.5km and anything above 2km will see severe damage penalty. The range of an interceptor’s main cannon is 3km.

So what? Interceptors also have a maximum regeneration rate that can be overcome just like any of those mechanics can. Your argument is completely baseless. All I'm hearing from you is "You can only circumvent mechanics that I say are ok to circumvent".

But that's the entire point of PvE gameplay, and a fundamental of any game experience; how can I maximise my safety and chances of success, while negating the enemies advantages.

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

And it's your argument, not mine. So it's good to see you finally acknowledging it.

No, I was referring to your argument following from mine. Putting words in other peoples’ mouths is also a bad argumentation style you know, and you are engaging in it abundantly.

What’s funny here is that there are two threads on the same issue going on at the same time with diametrically opposed views dominating.

So other people being able to kill it quickly blocks other people from improving their skills? How so?

Think one step ahead please. If the gibbing community dominates, then players looking to get into AX will be told ”just gib it” rather than learn the fight mechanics. In the long run, those pilots will be more likely to not develop their skills further. I have seem this happen.

If you value the skill that you possess in taking them out, why is it so easily negated by someone that can't tangibly affect your gameplay?

”Method just took out the new WoW raid boss at the hardest difficulty setting! All hail Method! ... Wait! What’s that? A group of three level 4 players already did so by pressing the big ’make boss die now’ button? All hail the level 4 group!”

If it is intended, then it is silly game design. Just accept that. A game is not a ”real conflict” where numbers necessarily overwhelm (also, numbers are irrelevant as it is totally possible to gib a cyclops solo).

But that's the entire point of PvE gameplay, and a fundamental of any game experience; how can I maximise my safety and chances of success, while negating the enemies advantages.

You’re wrong. I don’t play games to be told a story, which is what gibbing essentially boils down to. Without any risk there is no gameplay, just God-mode. If I wanted to be told a story I would be watching a movie.

 

[Brrokk]

Pffft. I have 4 AX-fitted ships. One of those is all-shards as I once wanted to try out the instant-kill thing. Some observations:

It was fun. Not a lot of fun, but a game experience.

It wasn't devoid of skill. You still have to know what you're doing and understand Thargoids somewhat.

It wasn't very well paid and still isn't. No-one will be tempted to do it repeatedly for the credits.

It doesn't stop me from wanting to fly my other AX ships with Gauss etc. loadouts.

It wasn't an exploit. It uses in-game AX weapons in conventional ways against AX targets. FD have never questioned it as a strategy or said it's on any list of things to change. (Be careful what you wish for: if they fix it by some ghastly bodge to Thargoid stats, we could find invulnerable Basilisks for a couple of years afterwards).

OK, it was a game thing that I now know other people don't want me to do. You know what? I don't care.

 

[MishaTX]

Think one step ahead please. If the gibbing community dominates, then players looking to get into AX will be told ”just gib it” rather than learn the fight mechanics. In the long run, those pilots will be more likely to not develop their skills further. I have seem this happen.

But it only works against Cyclopses, right? Or am misunderstanding something (quite likely, as AX combat is one thing I haven't gotten into yet)?

If so, aren't those Clops-gibbing peeps in for a big surprise when they try it against something more dangerous?

Kinda like when I figured out the perfect way of making standard NPCs go boom and then made the mistake of thinking it would work against Spec Ops too.

 

[Tezzward]

No, I was referring to your argument following from mine. Putting words in other peoples’ mouths is also a bad argumentation style you know, and you are engaging in it abundantly.

What’s funny here is that there are two threads on the same issue going on at the same time with diametrically opposed views dominating.


Think one step ahead please. If the gibbing community dominates, then players looking to get into AX will be told ”just gib it” rather than learn the fight mechanics. In the long run, those pilots will be more likely to not develop their skills further. I have seem this happen.


”Method just took out the new WoW raid boss at the hardest difficulty setting! All hail Method! ... Wait! What’s that? A group of three level 4 players already did so by pressing the big ’make boss die now’ button? All hail the level 4 group!”

If it is intended, then it is silly game design. Just accept that. A game is not a ”real conflict” where numbers necessarily overwhelm (also, numbers are irrelevant as it is totally possible to gib a cyclops solo).


You’re wrong. I don’t play games to be told a story, which is what gibbing essentially boils down to. Without any risk there is no gameplay, just God-mode. If I wanted to be told a story I would be watching a movie.

My takeaway from this: you're mad because people might not want to play with you anymore, and you're bitter about world of warcraft. Gotcha.

Anything in game that a youtuber can do in just about any ship without shields can't be all that hard. Maybe your gameplay isn't the intended way. Get over it and play your way and hope there are other people who want to take 30 minutes to do it like you.

 

[Galafrey]

You used to be able to do this (see my video below), end of the day cyclops are easy anyway.

Source: https://youtu.be/AVjfz3Jm7K0

 

[Schmack]

So when 4 cobras interdict me and hit me with packhound volleys before I can react, that's an exploit? I knew it!

 

[Scary Asp Explorer]

guys this game has catastrophic design flaw... lack of damage cap can lead to instant kills on npc/player/thargoid

100 krait mk 2 obliterates engineered anaconda by one shooting it with packhounds - is it okay?
100 engineered anaconda shoot thargoid ship with 8 beam lasers per anaconda -thargoid dies,is it exploit? bannable offense?

solution/fix? that would require damage nerf to engineered guns and those unengineered but effective agaist thargoids..OR... apply damage limit that can take thargoid from one player and another cannot apply his damage so cant be 2vs1 so whatever guns you have you cant apply alot of damage at one time to cause thargoid to die.

well theres other use of two players vs 1 thargoid. player A fights thargoid, player B has pile of repair limpets so player A wont explode too quickly. because gets hull repair from player B and thargoid probably wont target player B that sends limpets to player A?

 

[galahad2069]

guys this game has catastrophic design flaw... lack of damage cap can lead to instant kills on npc/player/thargoid

100 krait mk 2 obliterates engineered anaconda by one shooting it with packhounds - is it okay?
100 engineered anaconda shoot thargoid ship with 8 beam lasers per anaconda -thargoid dies,is it exploit? bannable offense?

solution/fix? that would require damage nerf to engineered guns and those unengineered but effective agaist thargoids..OR... apply damage limit that can take thargoid from one player and another cannot apply his damage so cant be 2vs1 so whatever guns you have you cant apply alot of damage at one time to cause thargoid to die.

well theres other use of two players vs 1 thargoid. player A fights thargoid, player B has pile of repair limpets so player A wont explode too quickly. because gets hull repair from player B and thargoid probably wont target player B that sends limpets to player A?

Good luck with trying to bring 100 ships into a single instance, lol.

FYI: this is the biggest instance I've ever been in;

Source: https://youtu.be/esPd6CKPzvE


It took a heck of a lot of time for the Prism guys to anchor everyone in (people kept crashing out of the instance left and right).
Also, enjoy the amazing frame rate.

The last time we managed to do a PvP Hub 8v8, it took more than a half an hour to set up the instance.

Sometimes even league 4v4's (a grand total of 9 people, 2 teams and an adjudicator) are very tedious to set up.

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

well theres other use of two players vs 1 thargoid. player A fights thargoid, player B has pile of repair limpets so player A wont explode too quickly. because gets hull repair from player B and thargoid probably wont target player B that sends limpets to player A?

Are you at all familiar with how repair limpets work? If player A is taking damage they wont do anything at all since they will be instantly removed without applying the repair.

 

[galahad2069]

Are you at all familiar with how repair limpets work? If player A is taking damage they wont do anything at all since they will be instantly removed without applying the repair.

There are quite a lot things about game mechanics he does not seem to be very familiar with (100 players in an instance, lmao).

BTW I don't even understand what his problem might be with the concept of more ships being able to put out more damage. It seems pretty realistic.

 

[Brrokk]

... catastrophic design flaw... lack of damage cap ...

Not a catastrophic design flaw. Realism.