Destroying Thargoids without killing all the hearts cheating/exploit?

[FlyingBrickyard]

I disagree. The idea that it is no different from engineering your ship quite misses the mark. Engineering your ship does not circumvent game mechanics and mash them into a pulp. I find that most people who argue along these lines are unfamiliar with how Thargoid Interceptor combat is supposed to work.

While it may not be labelled directly by FDev as an exploit, it is certainly not how things are intended to work.

This sounds an awful lot like someone complaining an opponent isn't following the Marquess of Queensberry Rules in a street fight.

If the game mechanics allow it, they're not being circumvented. Intended or not, it's legitimate. Out-damaging a target's ability to regenerate/repair has been a viable strategy since the beginning of time, both in game, and real life.

Whether or not a person considers that "fair" depends on their view of the conflict as a form of sport, or a fight.

 

[Brrokk]

This sounds an awful lot like someone complaining an opponent isn't following the Marquess of Queensberry Rules in a street fight.

If the game mechanics allow it, they're not being circumvented. Intended or not, it's legitimate. Out-damaging a target's ability to regenerate/repair has been a viable strategy since the beginning of time, both in game, and real life.

Whether or not a person considers that "fair" depends on their view of the conflict as a form of sport, or a fight.

I agree, but I'll add that I think it starts being an exploit as soon as FD say they're working to fix it. They did that about the Eggsploit a couple of weeks before the actual fix, I guess as soon as they noticed what was going on.

AFAIK the case of blattering Cyclopes is different because so far FD have said said no such thing, and in fact features they've designed into the game suggest the opposite. Guardian shards in particular are intended to deliver huge damage very fast at close range. There's no way to accurately target a heart with them. As designed, they have one and only one possible use.

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

The only ones, that have the right to judge if an mechanic is intended or not are the developers! Anything else is personal opinion! Have the devs said, that the discussed mechanic is not intended? If so, please quote.

They have not said anything either way. Considering that there are long standing bugs in the game that are still waiting for a fix, this also means that there is no evidence for gibbing being intended - just that FDev has not put it high up on priority to fix it, which will hopefully change now that it has become a credit farm. It is good that you recognise that also the opinion of everyone defending gibbing is nothing else than personal opinion. As such I am entitled to a personal opinion and that is that gibbing is silly and bad game design.

Whether or not a person considers that "fair" depends on their view of the conflict as a form of sport, or a fight.

Elite is a game. I find it utterly deplorable that the enemy that is supposed to be the hardest can be made easier than a mostly harmless sidewinder because someone developer decising regen rates could not do their math properly.

It also amuses me how people that have actually fought high-level interceptors solo generally tend to agree with me regarding gibbing, while those that I suspect have not done clops at most (possibly gibbing) and nothing at worst seem to find it fine and proper.

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

There's no way to accurately target a heart with them.

Sorry, but that is just factually wrong. Witness the actual skills of CMDR Maligno:

As designed, they have one and only one possible use.

Yes, exerting the heart for later sniping it with gauss. They are also very effective against interceptor shields.

 

[Brrokk]

...
Yes, exerting the heart for later sniping it with gauss. They are also very effective against interceptor shields.

OK, but if the Thargoid is already dead you surely don't need to do the sniping?

 

[FlyingBrickyard]

Elite is a game.

It is indeed. Which makes your rabid crusade seem ridiculous - especially since it has literally no impact on your experience at all.

I find it utterly deplorable that the enemy that is supposed to be the hardest can be made easier than a mostly harmless sidewinder because someone developer decising regen rates could not do their math properly.

That and 5 bucks might get you a coffee these days. Putting that aside and accepting your stated root cause, it would seem your derision is misplaced. You should be angry at that "someone developer decising regen rates" for not doing their job properly, rather than at the player who is simply doing what the game obviously permits instead of wasting their time trying to devine the intent of some theoretical developer without any concrete guidance on the matter.

It also amuses me how people that have actually fought high-level interceptors solo generally tend to agree with me regarding gibbing, while those that I suspect have not done clops at most (possibly gibbing) and nothing at worst seem to find it fine and proper.

Citations for this claim would be great.

I'm going out on a limb here a bit, but I strongly suspect it's less they agree with you, and more that they hunt Thargoids for the challenge and instead find "gibbing" boring, and thus have no interest in it. When I see people soloing ten mixed interceptors at once, I'm inclined to conclude they're not looking for the easy way out.

Which, oddly enough, would place them firmly in the "viewing the conflict as sport", rather than as an "actual fight" camp.

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

Citations for this claim would be great.

You're welcome to stop by the AXI discord and ask the solo hydra killers yourself.

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

Which, oddly enough, would place them firmly in the "viewing the conflict as sport", rather than as an "actual fight" camp.

It is not much of a conflict if you have a button to press that instantly evaporates your enemy. That's just mindless genocide.

 

[Jmanis]

Elite is a game. I find it utterly deplorable that the enemy that is supposed to be the hardest can be made easier than a mostly harmless sidewinder because someone developer decising regen rates could not do their math properly.

That, or the regen rate is correct maths, and it's entirely intentional for it to be overcome by large swaths of commanders packing the most powerful anti-xeno weapons in existence.

But you won't even consider that, lest it taint the blessed-be authority of the AXI... how dare one affront their skills with something as crude as "working together".

PS: Feel free to report me to FD for exploiting, CMDR Jmanis Catharg, I solo-gank Cyclops using shard cannons with premium ammo. Happy to provide whatever evidence FD need. FD can make a decision then, and you'd have the actual answer to this then. But I suspect you know it won't go in your favour.

 

[Brrokk]

It is not much of a conflict if you have a button to press that instantly evaporates your enemy. That's just mindless genocide.

Ah, so you choose to toy with them, slaying them by degrees to maximize their suffering, so that they have time to comprehend the inevitability of their horrible fate as they see parts of their own body spinning off into space.

OK, good game. You've found a tough challenge which you enjoy beating. That's excellent and I'm glad you enjoy it, but maybe others don't want that. Maybe some just like blowing stuff up as fast as they can, and feeling "I won". It seems the game caters to them too, which is also excellent.

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

Maybe some just like blowing stuff up as fast as they can, and feeling "I won". It seems the game caters to them too, which is also excellent.

It sounds like your regular bounty hunt at a nav beacon. It is already in game without gibbing interceptors.

That, or the regen rate is correct maths, and it's entirely intentional for it to be overcome by large swaths of commanders packing the most powerful anti-xeno weapons in existence.

Right, all of the interceptor mechanics were put in place so you could willfully ignore them in a ship that requires significantly less in terms of outfitting than one made to actually confront them. Good logic there. Brilliant.

 

[Jmanis]

Tangentially, I think AXI (Who I have a lot of respect for) have definitively proven that lone Interceptors are, while harder than human opponents, are "not the hardest challenge in the game"... funnily enough shard-ganking a Hydra would never be a sustainable tactic against multiple Interceptors, thus, preserving the skill required for that particular challenge. Weak thargoid fighters gank single interceptors, capable fighters ask "how many".

But this claim that it's an exploit is just toys-out-the-pram "If people won't play the game my way, those other ways should be banned" trashposting.

 

[FlyingBrickyard]

You're welcome to stop by the AXI discord and ask the solo hydra killers yourself.

In addition to asking me to do your homework for you (you made the claim, it's up to you to back it up) - you've shifted the goalposts. Or is solo "gibbing" Hydras a rampant problem?

It is not much of a conflict if you have a button to press that instantly evaporates your enemy.

World War 2 would like a word...

That's just mindless genocide.

What happened to "Elite is a game."?

Look, you have a preferred playstyle, good for you! (Genuinely, this is not snark). But it may not be for everyone, and just because you and some people you associate with to some degree, enjoy that playstyle does not in any way mean it is the "one, true, correct" way to play. Which also means it may not be for everyone, or their chosen form of play.

If someone wants to solo 'gib' a basic interceptor instead of doing it the long, drawn out way, it's not an exploit. The game mechanics were built to allow it, so it's fair game.

To argue otherwise suggests techniques like "cold orbiting" are also an exploit, because running shieldless and spamming heatsinks to remain untargetable while soloing multiple interceptors per encounter was obviously 'not what the developers had in mind' when they built the thing.

Instead I'd argue that they are both creative solutions to similar problems. One is more expedient and less elegant or broadly applicable than the other, but sometimes "smash it with a big rock" is a perfectly suitable approach to solving a problem.

 

[galahad2069]

The ingame narrative is an ongoing war against the aliens, isn't it?

If it's actually a war, then it's perfectly reasonable to try and outnumber the enemy and kill them as quickly and effectively as possible. As a matter of fact, soloing the interceptors (let alone more than 1 of them) does not even fit this narrative very well.

The wing payment mechanics is another question, but that's not an AX specific thing.

 

[DMaster]

They have not said anything either way. Considering that there are long standing bugs in the game that are still waiting for a fix, this also means that there is no evidence for gibbing being intended - just that FDev has not put it high up on priority to fix it, which will hopefully change now that it has become a credit farm. It is good that you recognise that also the opinion of everyone defending gibbing is nothing else than personal opinion. As such I am entitled to a personal opinion and that is that gibbing is silly and bad game design.


Elite is a game. I find it utterly deplorable that the enemy that is supposed to be the hardest can be made easier than a mostly harmless sidewinder because someone developer decising regen rates could not do their math properly.

It also amuses me how people that have actually fought high-level interceptors solo generally tend to agree with me regarding gibbing, while those that I suspect have not done clops at most (possibly gibbing) and nothing at worst seem to find it fine and proper.

So, lets ask in the AMA, if the discussed mechanic is intended or not, if we are lucky, we get an answer and the discussion is over!

 

[Jmanis]

To argue otherwise suggests techniques like "cold orbiting" are also an exploit, because running shieldless and spamming heatsinks to remain untargetable while soloing multiple interceptors per encounter was obviously 'not what the developers had in mind' when they built the thing.

Coincidentally, when I first saw a video which used cold orbiting to completely avoid things like the corrosive missiles, the "eye lightning" and such, I thought "Man, that's a pretty cheese strategy. Surely that can't be intentional, just nullifying all those things with a ship that simply stays out of range and untouchable". Surely FD wouldn't have intended put in things like corrosive damage, which puts a hard limit on how long you can stay in the fight unless you deal with it, the field neutraliser and other stuff, just to use a tactic that completely ignores those things.

But ofc, I learned what underpinned those strategies and thought "Well, if it works for them I guess?", rather than flying around accusations of exploits just because it was a tactic I didn't use.

Right, all of the interceptor mechanics were put in place so you could willfully ignore them in a ship that requires significantly less in terms of outfitting than one made to actually confront them. Good logic there. Brilliant.

Yep. Far more logical and considered than your mouthfoaming about this.

FD also introduced a mechanic that allows capital ships to be routed without taking out their heatsinks. It's entirely synonymous.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

To be fair, it only takes a couple minutes to smoke a cyclops with gauss+standard ammo.

It makes sense that they would totally blow up if you’re running the good stuff.

 

[Quantis Trap]

I think it's not bad to make the "entry level" Thargoid flower easy to kill. It's a good gateway drug to get timid player into AX.

If Frontier wants easy cyclopse killing to not happen any more, they'll change it.

 

[BL1P]

Myself, I dont think gibbing was the intended method of destruction.
Wont know unless Fdev does something about it though. Sadly that could be 2 years from now or never.
Even then we wont know if it was intended, unless a CM or a Dev tells us yes or no.

 

[Schmack]

Oh, it is not "emergent gameplay" any more than the subsurface respawn mechanic was emergent gameplay in pulling people together in the cult of Egg. I don't think I need to remind you that this was nerfed into the ground and took the regular gameplay of subsurface mining with it to the grave.

It's not intended, players are grouping up to attack to accomplish a goal that the game intended to be accomplished solo.

Seems emergent to me.