Good point Steve. The improvement in graphics over the years have been astonishing; I wouldn't want to go back to monochrome wireframe or blocky 2d pixels. However, all the recent games I have tried are washed in light in an unrealistic way, even grown-up pc standards like Civilisation 5 now has the same effect, overbright colours and a childish, console feel. I'm sure there are exceptions (Dragon Age for instance) but it feels like the console effect is actually pushing graphics into being less realistic! And the pressure to have a pretty colour-washed environment mitigates against (you know where I'm going with this) game environments which are not! Space, for instance! Looking at recent space games it's clear that the programmers think "hey, this space, it's too...black! Lets have lots of ridiculously overbright nebulae or people will get bored". (Even was it FE2 caused uproar by having blue space!)
Development on "The Outsider" stopped?
- Thread starter Steve
- Start date
Good point Steve. The improvement in graphics over the years have been astonishing; I wouldn't want to go back to monochrome wireframe or blocky 2d pixels. However, all the recent games I have tried are washed in light in an unrealistic way, even grown-up pc standards like Civilisation 5 now has the same effect, overbright colours and a childish, console feel. I'm sure there are exceptions (Dragon Age for instance) but it feels like the console effect is actually pushing graphics into being less realistic! And the pressure to have a pretty colour-washed environment mitigates against (you know where I'm going with this) game environments which are not! Space, for instance! Looking at recent space games it's clear that the programmers think "hey, this space, it's too...black! Lets have lots of ridiculously overbright nebulae or people will get bored". (Even was it FE2 caused uproar by having blue space!)
My comment was based more around the console hardware being equivalent to a ATI X1800XT or a 7800GTX from a graphical perspective. Essentially developers are creating games for hardware that has been redundant for 3-4 generations and then adding cosmetic improvements like larger textures, volumetric rendering, cute water effects and oodles of bloom. Things like added geometry and catering for the added power of new PCs seem to be slipping away in favour for churning out games for consoles. Perhaps that lends itself to The Outsider not needing to upgrade it's engine... 5-10 years of development for a console is fine because the 'game field' hasn't changed.
You know it'd be nice to think that there was some forward movement on E4 but I think the priorities of Frontier are becoming pretty clear and a large scale space sim does not appear to be part of them, at least not for the next 3-5 years... especially if The Outsider (potentially a seminal game in the genre) has been pushed onto the backburner.
You know it'd be nice to think that there was some forward movement on E4 but I think the priorities of Frontier are becoming pretty clear and a large scale space sim does not appear to be part of them, at least not for the next 3-5 years... especially if The Outsider (potentially a seminal game in the genre) has been pushed onto the backburner.
Your technical knowledge is impressive! To my less expert eyes, it seems as though the trend is towards bright colours, too much bloom, and an overall visual style that would not appeal to anyone over 13. Are financial pressures (and increasing development cost) pushing companies inexorably into this market? I would be sad if grown-up, demanding games became extinct, but that seems to be the way the market is heading. The increasingly rare pc games feel spin-offs of consoles (still spitting blood over dumbed down Civ5, a previous flagship pc franchise). At least if they are developing for out of date hardware my laptop should be able to run new games without needing upgrading for a while!)
I'm sorry to hear you, probably our most prolific poster here, agree that the Outsider developments may sink our hopes for E4. To be honest, I was expecting my gloomy (and maybe slightly bitter) post would be shot down. I'm very sorry for all at Frontier and all of us if the dream dies. Reading posts by former Frontier employees was really sad.
Ah well, nobody died, we have had fun on a friendly, mature forum, and fond memories of an amazing game and the privilege of living through an exciting time in the development of pc's. Oh, and some good stuff in our real lives!
The problem regarding using Ourtsider's engine in E4 is that if E4 is going to be anything like Frontier, it would need a very specific set of features provided by the engine, starting with extreme scalability of in-game environments, long hierarchies of objects attaching to other objects (often lazily generated), and pretty much no objects that could be said to be stationary.
As for trends and consoles and such, pretty much everything has been said, my main problem isn't that consoles kill the development of graphics, my main problem is how they kill everything else as well.
As for trends and consoles and such, pretty much everything has been said, my main problem isn't that consoles kill the development of graphics, my main problem is how they kill everything else as well.
Twin Engined Elite IV
I share similar concerns DraQ, but one thing E4 could do is have 2 game engines. One for the Newtonian space travel and actual landings, so that the experience is seamless as it always has been, and then use the "Outsider" engine once you pop the hatch on your ship. I think I could live with a loading screen at this bit.
Consoles IMO could eventually stagnate all game development to the point were in the future, you will be able to download an easy to use game creation kit and make clone after clone of past gaming greats. There wont be any innovation or creativity, because there wont be regular new kit coming out to push the capabilities of developers. Saw a similar thing happen to the Amiga in it's later days. Perhaps some of you might agree that this is happening already?
Having said that though, some of the things people have got a humble C64 to do are amazing
I share similar concerns DraQ, but one thing E4 could do is have 2 game engines. One for the Newtonian space travel and actual landings, so that the experience is seamless as it always has been, and then use the "Outsider" engine once you pop the hatch on your ship. I think I could live with a loading screen at this bit.
Consoles IMO could eventually stagnate all game development to the point were in the future, you will be able to download an easy to use game creation kit and make clone after clone of past gaming greats. There wont be any innovation or creativity, because there wont be regular new kit coming out to push the capabilities of developers. Saw a similar thing happen to the Amiga in it's later days. Perhaps some of you might agree that this is happening already?
Having said that though, some of the things people have got a humble C64 to do are amazing
As Steve O pointed out it all just speculation as we have no idea what the Outside engine is capable of doing and inless one of ex frontier employees post here or some where else we probably never know.
Draq post has touched on some thing which I don’t think any of us has thought about why do we all assume that the next game will be any thing like Frontier/First Encounter.?
After all Elite and Frontier are two very different games although they share some basic similarities.
Draq post has touched on some thing which I don’t think any of us has thought about why do we all assume that the next game will be any thing like Frontier/First Encounter.?
After all Elite and Frontier are two very different games although they share some basic similarities.
Well it's got to have at least some similarities or it would lose it's flavour, especially so for us veterans of the series. The past games can at the same time be a great strength to draw on because of their history and also be a weakness, because the younger generation of gamers knows little about them, "if it's based on something old, it must be rubbish" type of attitude. Another thing we have missed here, at least Frontier have not said Elite IV is cancelled so that flicker of hope still burns.
But then we hit a slew of other problems - there can be no preset skyboxes in Frontier as they vastly depend on astronomy, day-night cycles get problematic, limited, enclosed areas will make you feel cheated and so on.
Because otherwise it will be a clearly misnamed and vastly inferior product we will have no interest in?
Games geting colorfull?
Could be the game industrie is hunting for the casual gamer.
But there more. Why do gamers game. What drives them.
To escape reality and dive into à fantastic emersive virtual world.
Or just training à simulation for chalange.
I got the same feeling to, but that is because gaming got à bit common and excepted so the massmarket game. And the trent is not simulation games.
Good example is
Cod + MOH + BC. vs. ARMA + OFP
Could be the game industrie is hunting for the casual gamer.
But there more. Why do gamers game. What drives them.
To escape reality and dive into à fantastic emersive virtual world.
Or just training à simulation for chalange.
I got the same feeling to, but that is because gaming got à bit common and excepted so the massmarket game. And the trent is not simulation games.
Good example is
Cod + MOH + BC. vs. ARMA + OFP
Dreams Vs Reality
What I was thinking of was just using the second (walking about) engine for space ports and the cities surrounding them. So, yes cheating a sky box (or sky circle might be better) and an enclosed area, but a big one though! GTA sized or close
The rest of the planet you could still land on using the first (space flight) engine, as before. I fear though, it would be beyond current technology (or desirable for that matter) to put sky boxes all over a near infinite number of planets or even just one. However as long as the game ships with decent mod tools, we could add our own explorable features throughout the galaxy. Of course now we would be getting into the area of city and colony building. I dont know how that would sit with Elite fans. Too Sim City perhaps? :S
I would guess many instead would like cities to grow "organically" within the game, eg found a colony and watch how it grows over time using environmental, economic, political and sociological models within the game itself using just one mega game engine. So would I!
Who knows though what Mr Braben is capable of. If he could pull something like that off with near infinite number of planets, it would take the gaming world by storm and change everything. Think about that for a second, a living breathing galaxy sitting on a DvD disk in the palm your hand. Remember what holding that Frontier floppy disk felt like all those years ago? Like that, only a 100,000,000,000* times better.......................if only
Coming back to reality, sky boxes and enclosed areas I think for someone like David Braben, are easily doable as long as they were done right with proper day/night cycles with any solar or stellar objects in the sky in their proper places.
The implication here is of course that the two engines might use a central depositary to gather the necessary variables used in creating their respective play fields. One engine (that is in use) fills the depository with values and the other then interprets those values for it's use and vice versa when it's time to switch engines again when you hit that airlock button.
Correct! A new Elite game must be just that, not an inferior clone
*number of star systems (give or take) in the original Frontier
What I was thinking of was just using the second (walking about) engine for space ports and the cities surrounding them. So, yes cheating a sky box (or sky circle might be better) and an enclosed area, but a big one though! GTA sized or close
The rest of the planet you could still land on using the first (space flight) engine, as before. I fear though, it would be beyond current technology (or desirable for that matter) to put sky boxes all over a near infinite number of planets or even just one. However as long as the game ships with decent mod tools, we could add our own explorable features throughout the galaxy. Of course now we would be getting into the area of city and colony building. I dont know how that would sit with Elite fans. Too Sim City perhaps? :S
I would guess many instead would like cities to grow "organically" within the game, eg found a colony and watch how it grows over time using environmental, economic, political and sociological models within the game itself using just one mega game engine. So would I!
Who knows though what Mr Braben is capable of. If he could pull something like that off with near infinite number of planets, it would take the gaming world by storm and change everything. Think about that for a second, a living breathing galaxy sitting on a DvD disk in the palm your hand. Remember what holding that Frontier floppy disk felt like all those years ago? Like that, only a 100,000,000,000* times better.......................if only
Coming back to reality
, sky boxes and enclosed areas I think for someone like David Braben, are easily doable as long as they were done right with proper day/night cycles with any solar or stellar objects in the sky in their proper places. The implication here is of course that the two engines might use a central depositary to gather the necessary variables used in creating their respective play fields. One engine (that is in use) fills the depository with values and the other then interprets those values for it's use and vice versa when it's time to switch engines again when you hit that airlock button.
Because otherwise it will be a clearly misnamed and vastly inferior product we will have no interest in?
Correct! A new Elite game must be just that, not an inferior clone
*number of star systems (give or take) in the original Frontier
...just sayin...
Agreed Steve, very sadly. The announcement of The Outsider's cancellation (sorry, being "put on hold") with the reaction of ex-employees on various blogs and the lack of any positive announcement from Frontier makes me feel gloomy about E4 ever making it. This feels like the day the dream died.
So having been an almost daily visitor for several years, I'll just shrug my shoulders and get on with life....and it looks like other old faithfuls here are doing the same.
But please prove me wrong Frontier and I'll be back grinning inanely and wagging my tail, though not in a Kinectanimal kind of way...
btw are all your folks ok back at home? My daughter was in Christchuch last year and said how lovely it was: very sad.
So having been an almost daily visitor for several years, I'll just shrug my shoulders and get on with life....and it looks like other old faithfuls here are doing the same.
But please prove me wrong Frontier and I'll be back grinning inanely and wagging my tail, though not in a Kinectanimal kind of way...
btw are all your folks ok back at home? My daughter was in Christchuch last year and said how lovely it was: very sad.
Pray tell!
I reckon - where are these blogs you talk about?
Sadly I think you guys are right, we all know that Frontier likes to keep things close to their collective chests, and you can understand to a point why they do this in a competitive market. But It would be nice if we were given some indication on where the company is heading.
BTW, I think Steves 1st post on this thread had a link to a article which had some comments by ex employees.
BTW, I think Steves 1st post on this thread had a link to a article which had some comments by ex employees.
I'd like to pretend to be clever, but just on links at the beginning of this thread. For instance:
"ITS DEAD.
I worked at Frontier many years, this game should have been thrown away three years ago. The company over stretched itself with this game, the in-house tools are next to useless, the engine is years behind rivals. Many good people worked on that project its a shame, so many talented, good and friendly people waisted by a company that doesn't treat its staff as well as it should. A large part of the management should be the ones to go, at best they are in experienced at worse incompetent.
I wish those still there and those gone all the best they work too hard for little reward."
and:
II worked on the Outsider as well and I had serious doubts that it would ever get published.
I've seen several forum and facebook posts from Outsider team members who are under no illusions that the project has no one working on it now and is for all intents and purposes dead.
One team member directly laid blame at the publisher's feet while Braben says the publisher made no canning decisions. One of them is fibbing...Did they even have a signed publisher since Codies dropped the project? I heard one was interested but you can't blame them if after looking at the project they decided it was too risky."
I feel really sorry for the guys at Frontier, I hope they can do something bigger than fluffy animals. Good luck in hard times guys. If you feel I'm being disloyal by posting this, I'll delete, but it's public knowledge.
"ITS DEAD.
I worked at Frontier many years, this game should have been thrown away three years ago. The company over stretched itself with this game, the in-house tools are next to useless, the engine is years behind rivals. Many good people worked on that project its a shame, so many talented, good and friendly people waisted by a company that doesn't treat its staff as well as it should. A large part of the management should be the ones to go, at best they are in experienced at worse incompetent.
I wish those still there and those gone all the best they work too hard for little reward."
and:
II worked on the Outsider as well and I had serious doubts that it would ever get published.
I've seen several forum and facebook posts from Outsider team members who are under no illusions that the project has no one working on it now and is for all intents and purposes dead.
One team member directly laid blame at the publisher's feet while Braben says the publisher made no canning decisions. One of them is fibbing...Did they even have a signed publisher since Codies dropped the project? I heard one was interested but you can't blame them if after looking at the project they decided it was too risky."
I feel really sorry for the guys at Frontier, I hope they can do something bigger than fluffy animals. Good luck in hard times guys. If you feel I'm being disloyal by posting this, I'll delete, but it's public knowledge.
I don’t see why theirs so much doom and gloom just because one game not going to get released, after all if look at the history of the games industry it is littered with unreleased game.
Perhaps Frontier Developments are stockpiling the cash with the intention of releasing "The Outsider" in 3250, and then releasing Elite 4 in 3450.
I'm actually surprised that nobody from Frontier's said anything in here yet. Are they in hiding or are they preparing a statement for us? Can't be good if it's taking this long for a statement.
I'm actually surprised that nobody from Frontier's said anything in here yet. Are they in hiding or are they preparing a statement for us? Can't be good if it's taking this long for a statement.