DEVs PLEASE Clarify your definitions and fix Expansion.

Completely agree with A-train. A cooldown is certainly necessary in order to create a balance in expansion between the different factions. But being wealthy and BECAUSE OF THAT unable to expand goes against all logic, even with regard to gameplay mechanics. War requires money, be it ingame or in real life. In history, apart from very rare occasions, conquerors have never expanded with empty pockets...

Now, if indeed the whole process worked the OTHER way round - you expand > it drains your resources > you need time to rebuild them (trading, bounty-hunting...) > get wealthy again > expand again > rinse & repeat -, it would be (a) much more logical, (b) much less frustrating, and (c) much more foreseeable. Factions (and notably their ops officers) would be able to know "exactly" (with quotation marks) what's their faction's status, and when they would be able to expand again, so that they could foster their members/fellow Cmdrs to concentrate their efforts in a definite direction. It would greatly enhance the faction's cohesion and teamplay, something that should be at the very heart of Elite but to date - and unfortunately - is not.

And to this point, again, I would state that expansion for the sake of is one thing, but if a faction wants CONTROL of a station/system (and thus is more ambitious) that is another thing, and effectively builds in a measure of "cooldown" upon itself. Desiring to take over a system when starting as a minor faction in a new system requires hundreds, possibly thousands (depending on the size of population, number of stations, resources of existing factions, and alliance with superpowers) of man-hours to accomplish, and thus would buffer out the time before another expansion can occur.

A smaller system, with one station and four existing factions, might require two or three election/war cycles (most of a week each) but a larger, more populated system (where it takes more effort to swing influence - which is stated to be part of the gameplay mechanics already) could take weeks of building influence to trigger elections/war, a more prolonged war, and takeover of multiple stations before the objective of system control is achieved. (And then the system/faction has to rebuild their wealth after this process to expand again.)

This would really separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to who is a "Power" in Elite, in the organizational skills and effort put forth by the members of a faction. A group of people who are well-organized and willing could still accomplish in days what a smaller group might require weeks to do. It simply becomes a numbers game.

Also, as someone rightfully pointed out above, factions need to know beforehand WHAT system they are going to expand to. And this, at the very least; as a matter of fact, they should be able to CHOOSE which system they want to expand to. Expanding to a system which has no value to you for whatever reason (lack of resources, lack of stations or bad size of stations (if, say, there are only outposts and your only ship is a Large one), no interest points, system too widely spread, no mining areas etc.) is extremely frustrating - especially if it drains the faction's resources - and gives the feeling your efforts have been wasted with little purpose, which can easily demotivate people from participating further in the faction's ops. Once again, this is mere logic: when you attack a country or a region, it's always with a purpose (not talking here about moral right ofc), so why should it be different in the game and why should expansion decisions be left to the trolly RNG?

An excellent point I did not address, but one that should be as well. Why expand into a system for no reason? Sure groups may want to expand into and take over systems rich in resources. Perhaps they want to secure a trading route. Or there is a destination at the end of the line. Maybe they want a strategic foothold from which to leapfrog to another system, or establish a security perimeter around their home world. There might be a station or planet they want in a system.

But to randomly expand makes no sense. "Why did we end up in this crappy system with no resources, a single (fairly useless outpost), and no useful planets?" is a reasonable question raised by players. Furthermore, the size of population in a system (and thus the possible value) creates a bigger challenge for a new faction in that more time must be expended to swing influence to achieve objectives. Now we are looking at using the existing gameplay mechanics and logic of the market system to essentially bring "Power play" down to the faction level. A group would have to "prepare" a system by working somehow to become a faction within it, then expend resources to raise and maintain their influence there, then expend more to "exploit" and maintain "control" of it.

Indeed, in the greater scheme of "control" of the galaxy, should player groups be able to heighten security of a system they control? Enhance security to deter smuggling, piracy, or reaping of resources (creating a new challenge for those who desire to perform the action)?

Perhaps a key element of this is for players who desire to be part of a faction to declare their loyalty to that faction and thus be identified as part of it (just like in Power Play). There would be some benefit to being a member of a faction, and the stronger/wealthier a faction the better this may be. They might leave the faction but have a one-week "cooldown" before they could pledge loyalty to another faction. (Can't make it easy so people just bounce from one to another to another.) But then it allows/creates a dynamic in the game where NPCs can interact with players (in a positive/neutral/negative manner) based on something concrete, rather than a player just being a "CMDR".

Logically, how would the people of a system know who is coming in to perform actions there without such declaration? "Oh, look, a random pilot is coming in and (trading/dumping exploration data/smuggling/pirating/killing/bounty hunting) in our system. Yay!" Or there is one action, then two, then a dozen, then hundreds, and the people of that system recognize that "Looks like there is a new group in town, perhaps we should (follow/be neutral/oppose) them." And with followers a faction expands.
 
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We really need some kind of interface ingame that gives us information about the state of the BGS.

Do we have to code everything on our own?

I think you are missing one thing.

If boom indeed helped expansion it would make sense. And we all know FD's game design can't make sense.

Thanks for the input, folks, but really I'm trying to get answers to questions (that not only I but others have) and suggest solutions to issues, not pile on the crew that have created an amazing sandbox for us to play in. Let's keep it productive here and perhaps we can actually foment some positive changes that you want to see as well.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Well if they told us this. And/or let us actually join our Factions. Planning and expand how we see fit. That would give the players some sort of control. And giving players control just scares FD so does giving players support Like a form of guild structure. And players cannot have anything. Other than credits and ships.

Again, players get an amazing sandbox to play in. Let's focus on what we have and how we can (try to) improve it, rather than piling on in an unproductive manner.

Thanks for chiming in.
 
I think FD could really improve the whole player backed minor faction :

  • Allow player to really join the faction (faction tag on the ship when scaned). That would makes thing transparent.
  • Have a minor faction map mode, similar to powerplay but just to display the territory of one faction.
  • As in powerplay, you should have a menu where you can see what system has what level of influence, where there is war and so on.
  • I think players backing a minor should have some say about which system it should expand to. For example vote 1 of 3 choices picked by the BGS.
  • It would be nice if when getting in boom state, you could pick a choice between expansion, war and a mini-CG (to upgrade station, change economy, raise population, colonize and what not)

There are some really good ideas, particularly in parenthesis on the final bullet point.

Why not allow upgrade of systems/facilities via player efforts? Doing so would logically raise the system population by attracting new inhabitants via jobs and opportunities. This would reward efforts by a faction in that more population = stronger system and harder to alter influence in. And it doesn't have to be invented numbers of people. A growing economy in a system could drain some numbers/influence from surrounding systems because of the attraction of growth and opportunity. This is simple human nature. People will migrate to where they see jobs and opportunity (and their intentions can be good or not so...).
 
There are some really good ideas, particularly in parenthesis on the final bullet point.

Why not allow upgrade of systems/facilities via player efforts? Doing so would logically raise the system population by attracting new inhabitants via jobs and opportunities. This would reward efforts by a faction in that more population = stronger system and harder to alter influence in. And it doesn't have to be invented numbers of people. A growing economy in a system could drain some numbers/influence from surrounding systems because of the attraction of growth and opportunity. This is simple human nature. People will migrate to where they see jobs and opportunity (and their intentions can be good or not so...).

Indeed. This is typically what would be a great topic for the aforementionned mini-CGs. There's already been a CG a few months ago the point of which was to change the economy of a station & turn it into a high-tech station. Why not think about a way of generating such mini-CGs at a small faction's level to allow players to "customize" their system? It would add an extra (optional) layer of strategy to the sandbox and could also motivate some players to do some activities they usually don't do (trading, combat, smuggling...) for the sake of their clan (and through it, personal fun as well). And it would help building a - much - stronger link between PP and the BGS than the current one.

However, at least one of Muetdhiver's points seems mandatory to me: the possibility to actually join a faction & have its tag under your name/Cmdr card. It's about time Frontier starts introducing an official base & support for guilds to its game; allowing players to pledge allegiance not to a superpower straightforward, but to a local faction in the first place, would be a great step in favor of grouping. Grouping (i.e. cooperation, in broader terms, as opposed to solo play AND PvP conflicts), has been left aside for too long in this game, notably because of the numerous issues with the wings' mechanic. Once again, improving the BGS by allowing more transparency and allowing players to belong to a real group and be able to identify each other in space would be a great step in the right direction.
 
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...Logically, how would the people of a system know who is coming in to perform actions there without such declaration? "Oh, look, a random pilot is coming in and (trading/dumping exploration data/smuggling/pirating/killing/bounty hunting) in our system. Yay!" Or there is one action, then two, then a dozen, then hundreds, and the people of that system recognize that "Looks like there is a new group in town, perhaps we should (follow/be neutral/oppose) them." And with followers a faction expands.

Well, actually, I think there's already a mechanic in game that could be used to track this without specifying a loyalty to a group, at least as far as trading goes.
I can't remember where, but I thought that your cargo indicated where it was bought (or am I confusing this with the "Salvage - Legal" vs. "Salvage - Illegal" flag?). If so, then it wouldn't be that hard to start a system of measurement at a port of where goods came from... the more goods from the same location, the greater the influence gain of that controlling faction, as it would indicate that they are becoming more reliant on that resource from a one particular source.

While it would be nice to say that it should be easy to simply give players more control (via adding the ability to declare a faction, for example), I would say that the devs need to look at this situation closely, weigh in the pro's and con's and implement the next steps carefully, rather than rushing a half-thought solution out. I know that's going to increase aggravation among players, as this means they have to deal with "broken" a little bit longer, but the alternative is a hastily-rigged patch that makes matters worse, or appears to fix the problem but causes others to cascade through the game over an extended period of time.

And to the matter of having, say, an API into the BGS, I would say that's got some merit, but I can understand why they might not want to do so, as well... having instant access to the BGS could cause additional strain on server resources (and if mismanaged, locking of key tables could cause issues in game as well), and could also open the system to concerted efforts to either break or manipulate the BGS for one group's benefit.

Obviously, something needs to change; I'm not contradicting anything A-Train has mentioned in his post. These are features that have excited the community since they were introduced, and they do help immerse and invest players into the game. If the Devs are indeed taking these things seriously, some more transparency from their side of things might at least help players feel they are being listened to, rather than trying to yell at closed doors and hoping someone inside is listening.
 

Redwazza

Banned
It would be a lot easier to figure out if...

1. The information was readily available
and
2. If the information that is forthcoming was easier to understand
 
As all in this tread, we have leaned the hard way trhat the BGS is obscure and dificult to understand, and in some weird masochistic way i love it.

I have also pondered in the same questions as the OP, but i reached diferrent conclussions...

1) I do not think that the BOOM state is bad, it is true, boom state negates the expansion but that is not bad at all, if you try to see the big picture, a goverment that is in its prime invest its recourses in improve the way of life of its citizens, not in expand in others colonial spaces, wich will lead to war and a heavy drainage of resources, in game we see that in BOOM state the influence grows double by trade and charity missions, and it is easy beeing in boom to take the influence boost that a lot of minor factions need to trigger elections or civil wars, so BOOM is really a very helpfull state in the game, the problem is that it will come after a good campaign, so it will delay the expansion for most people... i would say that instead hurt your own faction to force the expansion, it would be advisable take some days off and let the BOOM fortify your influence in the system, that way the expansion will be a lot easier to achive, the only drawback is some days of cooldown. the chained BOOM state some systems have is because the BOOM state is not time dependant, but is sustained, and last as long as the faction is in fact doing comerce in high rate. so to speak... if you want to end boom, do not hurt your faction, just stop trading and doing charity.

2) Trigger the expansion is a tricky game, as it will draina lot of resources, and even lower your overall influence in home system, so is advisable that before expanding, the foothold in the system is well suported, for that the BLOOM state is fundamental.

Sorry for the wall of text
 
...a goverment that is in its prime invest its recourses in improve the way of life of its citizens, not in expand in others colonial spaces, wich will lead to war and a heavy drainage of resourcesjust stop trading and doing charity.

Yes, but you have to have resources to Expand. A business doesn't expand when its' resources are depleted. You build up assets to allow you to spread them to two (or more) locations and then you Expand. Then you deal with a time period of "struggle" while you get the new location up to speed and profitable. That's the recovery price I am suggesting where the expanding faction, depending on how strong they were prior to, would drop back into a neutral or possibly Bust state. They would have to recover from this up to Boom again to allow another Expansion.

Trigger the expansion is a tricky game, as it will draina lot of resources, and even lower your overall influence in home system, so is advisable that before expanding, the foothold in the system is well suported, for that the BOOM state is fundamental.

It can be, especially if there are (Civil) Wars going on between other minor factions in the system. You cannot drain Influence from them while they are in a conflict state. So then you must act to end the conflict one way or another. And yes, you have to have 75% influence in your own system to trigger an Expansion, so that means you have worked hard to achieve that result, but it can be recovered from afterward as well. We triggered the Expansion during a war, we just got hosed in that we are having to wait out Boom before seeing the fruits of our labors.

With my proposed changes, a faction would have a built-in "Cooldown" period between Expansions anyway, but that would be based upon their intentions in the new system, and how quickly they can act in their anchor system to restore their Influence number and re-build their economic assets.
 
I have much respect for people for trying to play with this crappy buggy BGS. Really.
Especially that FD doesn t care and not even sure they know exactly how it works.
 
The BGS is:

Input >> Black Box >> Ouput.

So.

Is the game: getting only good output?
Or is the game: figuring out the Black Box?


I think FDEV enjoy tinkering inside the black box as much as we enjoy good output.
I think they enjoy seeing us figure it out.
 
I think they enjoy seeing us figure it out.

What some people don't seem to understand is that being more transparent and giving out more information to the players about... pretty much everything actually, does NOT amount to over-assist the player by taking him by the hand and making this overly easy for him. It would just make the game more readable, for everybody and especially the new players***, and allow all of us to understand clearly how this universe works to be able to fully integrate to it, "play" it and have fun in it.

Retaining key information, being vague or hiding data is all but fun and is utterly counterproductive. All it does is drive people angry and disappointed, and ultimately drive them away from the game. We need more transparency, more detailed ship cards, more details about the BGS, more details about our different statuses (personal status/faction's status/power's status etc.) on the UI, more tools so that we enjoy the game instead of struggling against it. Unless the lack of transparency Elite suffers from from its very release has been planned on purpose to hide from players some weird or debatable mechanics and balance decisions, but that's another topic that we won't discuss or comment on here.

Some good steps have already been taken in 1.5 in this direction, with "meters" indicating your current Navy rank progress etc., but there's still much more to be done. For once, let's have faith in the devs so that they clarify the points raised by A-train and provide us with the aforementionned tools we need, hopefully in the forthcoming months.

--------------------------
*** In one of his recent videos, the Youtuber ObsidianAnt commented about the difficulty for new players to "read" the new mission system, mainly because of both lack of more detailed information about what they should do (and how they should do it) and a number of broken missions that simply don't work at all. Although this is a slightly different topic than the one we discuss here, it nonetheless stresses the absolute need (and urge) for more transparency in Elite in terms of a clearer UI and map, a better understanding of the various gameplay mechanics (BGS, markets, influence, reputation) and more detailed information about ships and weapons (shield strength and armor values displayed in the ship's card and in the outfitting department, amongst others). Link to the video here for those interested in ObsidianAnt's PoV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2V8VQywDMA
 
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Yes booms can be a nuisance. I would say that they are slightly too easy to trigger at the moment. That said there are ways to deal with an unwanted boom
It's just a matter of shaking the black box and figuring it out. It is the missing influence ticks and stuck state bugs of recent times that are the real impediment. Hopefully fixed.

I do agree that the bgs should be somewhat more responsive in its feedback but not so much as to remove the black box challenge.
 
The minor I support is stucked at endless Boom for already 27 days (hope this ends tomorrow). We have 4 pending states waiting (civil unrest, expansion, lockdown and elections) and the BOOM never runs out.
The civil unrest and lockdown were caused by a massive PVP conflict we had at our system, but it was like 18 days ago and the boom persists even after all this mess.
If the boom goes over the 28 days I'll report the bug, do you know the best way to report it? Should I use the bug report section at Frontier support site? or there's another way to report it.
Thanks
 
...
I think FD could really improve the whole player backed minor faction :

  • Allow player to really join the faction (faction tag on the ship when scaned). That would makes thing transparent.
  • Have a minor faction map mode, similar to powerplay but just to display the territory of one faction.
  • As in powerplay, you should have a menu where you can see what system has what level of influence, where there is war and so on.
  • I think players backing a minor should have some say about which system it should expand to. For example vote 1 of 3 choices picked by the BGS.
  • It would be nice if when getting in boom state, you could pick a choice between expansion, war and a mini-CG (to upgrade station, change economy, raise population, colonize and what not)

Agreed, FD could leave Powerplay out of the game, and improved minor factions better. (pledging to minor factions)
Now it's an illogical mess...

o7
 
Agreed, FD could leave Powerplay out of the game, and improved minor factions better. (pledging to minor factions)
Now it's an illogical mess...

o7


"I don't enjoy it so we should just remove it."

Aye sure, and what about the thousands of us that do enjoy it? Fighting a huge macro-faction war rather than just fighting for some dinky little faction in the middle of nowhere.
 
Where is the Earth Shattering KaBoom? There is supposed to be an Earth Shattering KaBoom!


"Duck Dodgers in the 25th and a half century".
Marvin the Martian says that line.
Have not seen that cartoon for years. Very funny.
Cast: Daffy Duck, Porky Pig, Marvin the Martian.
 
FD never fixed their bugs. They just add new (broken) content. I thought it was clear now.

Just need to read Braben interview to see how disconnected they are from the reality.
 
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