Direct player to player trades. Why is this missing?

[Windscreen Smudge]

Dropping cans in a RES stops being an annoyance to the miner as soon as the miner leaves the area / instance / mode. A bounty would persist until collected (presumably).

If players could place a bounty on any other player for no reason then it would facilitate harassment by proxy - with the bounty hunters being none the wiser that they were facilitating the harassment.

Forgot to mention that there's the option of letting them expire. Return the bounty amount to the player, but don't return the tax. Should've been in the same line.

So these are both temporary annoyances that eventually cease to bother the player, correct?

Go play a game with working bounty mechanics. It actually stops being a method of harassment and becomes either a joke or a badge of honor.

On any given day in Eve Online you'll find old vets hanging around the newbie zones talking to them as they start the game. When they find a genuine new player some of these people like to throw a bounty on them that is typically worth more than that new player will make in their first 3 months. As a joke. Because it doesn't change anything about how other people interact with them in the game, since killing that player will only net them 20% of the value of the players' ship in bounty, and the players' ship won't be worth 10% of the bounty for at least 6 months. The new player thinks that something serious just happened and freaks out. The vet laughs and says Welcome to Eve, because what he did was a 100% harmless prank that changed nothing.

If I put a 10 million bounty on a trader, using the rules I outlined, what does that mean for the trader? Not much at all The trader is already subject to interdictions from pirates. In order to collect the bounty without incurring punishment they first have to be confirmed as having a bounty and then permission for collecting that bounty must be acquired. This drops the likelihood of being bounty hunted down to about that of being pirated simply due to the obfuscation of information. If that player is only flying a Type 6 worth 50k in insurance, what's my motivation in finding them and going through the process of killing them? If that trader is flying a fully fit Anaconda that will cover the payout, then they can also cover their own backside in a fight.

But believe it or not, when you have a system like this in place, people are typically nicer to each other. And don't forget we have Group and Solo modes. Should players be forced to flee to group and solo because of bounties? No. And they won't, because the players who would run to group and solo over a bounty are already playing there.

Because then it becomes a rich player's feature.

I just got started and bought a shiny new hauler. First time I'm taking off and you barge in with your cutter demolishing my feeble Hauler. This hauler only has the option to place a bounty of several thousand credits on your head.

Except you don't need to, because the station destroyed his Cutter and cost him 60 mil or more, and it didn't cost you a single credit to exact that punishment.

Fair enough. But the way you want credit transfers to be implemented in the game (no restrictions whatsoever) is probably never going to happen. FDEV would rather reconsider selling credits for real money on the Frontier Store.

I'm all in favor of player-to-player transactions, but I'm also being realistic about how the devs view the whole matter. Just trying to reach some common ground.

Actually DB has gone from saying "Absolutely no, never" on this subject to "We're considering ways we could implement this and if it will work."

I'm just following their lead, in all honesty.

 

[Sir.Tj]

Let's knock of the personal comments folks.

Thanks

 

[Robert Maynard]

Forgot to mention that there's the option of letting them expire. Return the bounty amount to the player, but don't return the tax. Should've been in the same line.

So these are both temporary annoyances that eventually cease to bother the player, correct?

Go play a game with working bounty mechanics. It actually stops being a method of harassment and becomes either a joke or a badge of honor.

On any given day in Eve Online you'll find old vets hanging around the newbie zones talking to them as they start the game. When they find a genuine new player some of these people like to throw a bounty on them that is typically worth more than that new player will make in their first 3 months. As a joke. Because it doesn't change anything about how other people interact with them in the game, since killing that player will only net them 20% of the value of the players' ship in bounty, and the players' ship won't be worth 10% of the bounty for at least 6 months. The new player thinks that something serious just happened and freaks out. The vet laughs and says Welcome to Eve, because what he did was a 100% harmless prank that changed nothing.

If I put a 10 million bounty on a trader, using the rules I outlined, what does that mean for the trader? Not much at all The trader is already subject to interdictions from pirates. In order to collect the bounty without incurring punishment they first have to be confirmed as having a bounty and then permission for collecting that bounty must be acquired. This drops the likelihood of being bounty hunted down to about that of being pirated simply due to the obfuscation of information. If that player is only flying a Type 6 worth 50k in insurance, what's my motivation in finding them and going through the process of killing them? If that trader is flying a fully fit Anaconda that will cover the payout, then they can also cover their own backside in a fight.

But believe it or not, when you have a system like this in place, people are typically nicer to each other. And don't forget we have Group and Solo modes. Should players be forced to flee to group and solo because of bounties? No. And they won't, because the players who would run to group and solo over a bounty are already playing there.

The difference would be that one player could set a number of players chasing after the same bounty, i.e. a rent-a-mob chasing down one targeted player. How would a time limit work? If it was RL hours then the targeted player could simply log out, sit in a station, change modes. Player setting bounty loses money.

What you describe happening in EvE can be considered to be a form of harassment - sanctioned by the in-game features - but harassment nonetheless, even if CCP do permit such behaviour. I doubt very much that Frontier will choose to tread that path.

As to "believe it or not" - to make that determination, it would need to be implemented here - personally, I'd rather not take the chance as, in my opinion, the odds of it improving behaviour are poor.

 

[Robbeh]

To avoid spurious bounties being levied on players - which could constitute a form of harassment.

Player imposed bounties were discussed in the DDF. The final proposal on Criminality included this:

I see your DDF quote and I raise you:

Player to Player Trading

• Players can trade directly with each other
• The player trade interface is available when both players are docked at the same market
• The player trade interface is available when two players dock ships
• The player trade interface is a secure swap allowing players to transfer credits/cargo
• Both players must accept the trade before it occurs
• Acceptance must be redone by both parties after any change in the trade
• Trading occurs in real-time and can be interrupted (for example by being attacked) unless taking place at a space dock

Either player can cancel the trade at any time up to the point both agree

So clearly either the DDF is out of date/irrelevant and not worth referencing anymore or player to player trading is an outstanding feature...

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

The difference would be that one player could set a number of players chasing after the same bounty, i.e. a rent-a-mob chasing down one targeted player. How would a time limit work? If it was RL hours then the targeted player could simply log out, sit in a station, change modes. Player setting bounty loses money.

What you describe happening in EvE can be considered to be a form of harassment - sanctioned by the in-game features - but harassment nonetheless, even if CCP do permit such behaviour. I doubt very much that Frontier will choose to tread that path.

As to "believe it or not" - to make that determination, it would need to be implemented here - personally, I'd rather not take the chance as, in my opinion, the odds of it improving behaviour are poor.

The obfuscation of information ensures that there is no mob. Again, play a game with working bounties. These worst case scenarios simply do not happen. Instancing alone ensures that players will have a hard time finding someone who has a player-placed bounty.

The same way time limits work on current bounties. Players log out during those too. I don't see anyone crying foul about it.

If players are going to log out and switch modes to avoid bounties that's their loss. They are subtracting from their own game experience.

Interdictor modules are a tool for harassment. Lasers are a tool for harassment. Ships are a tool for harassment. If we eliminated all tools for harassment from the game, we'd be playing Solitaire with our modems unplugged.

 

[samuelb]

Good grief man, are you really saying that only governments should be concerned about exploitation and that companies / individuals can rely on that and not have a moral conscience? Wow... and to boot over something as banal as in game credits, you are happy for someone, somewhere to be exploited? This is post is misguided at best and racist at worst. Grow up.

 

[Nine Of Zaragas]

i know how it has gone in all the dozens of mmo type games i have played and don't recall one where it worked well.

You still haven't answered me a game where it did work.

Forget all the MMO's you have played. Dont try to limit the potential of this game because what you have experienced in other games. If done right it will work, its up to the devs to make it work and if you are not a solo player you know how beneficial player to player transactions can be for your teams gaming experience. It is nice of you to point out all of the problems, player to player transactions can bring to the game we all love so much IF NOT DONE RIGHT.

What we need now is constructive ideas that will make currency trading a non lucrative exploit in this game and a function that will encourage team play, make players thrive in numbers and create communities. I have an idea of how the devs can do this without screwing up the game. I think this can be done with trade restrictions and escrow.

Now picture this,

24 hour wing time: You have to be in a wing group with someone for 24 hours before you can send them credits.

24 hour trade cool down for sending credits: You can only enter escrow ones every 24 hours to send money.

Entering escrow: Escrow is a financial service some star ports should offer. To start the trade both parties have to dock at the same station offering an escrow service.

In escrow: While docked side by side the credits in transaction are sent to the escrow server and a countdown timer begins. The player sending the money is checked for legitimacy if it looks like he is scripting or he is spawning credits the star port lights him up, he gets blown up and banned from online play.

It may not be perfect but it is an idea, I understand the fear this brings to solo players but I don't care because this is a multi player game if you don't like it click solo play and dry your eyes. I know one thing for sure I will not be paying for the next season if this game is not made more guild friendly.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The obfuscation of information ensures that there is no mob. Again, play a game with working bounties. These worst case scenarios simply do not happen. Instancing alone ensures that players will have a hard time finding someone who has a player-placed bounty.

The same way time limits work on current bounties. Players log out during those too. I don't see anyone crying foul about it.

If players are going to log out and switch modes to avoid bounties that's their loss. They are subtracting from their own game experience.

Interdictor modules are a tool for harassment. Lasers are a tool for harassment. Ships are a tool for harassment. If we eliminated all tools for harassment from the game, we'd be playing Solitaire with our modems unplugged.

The obfuscation would only work if there was no possibility of the existence of the bounty being promulgated in out-of-game channels.

The avoidance being possible was not a criticism of the current bounty handling - it was pointing out that while a hypothetical randomly applied bounty was current there is no guarantee of the player being available for anyone else to collect on it.

Their loss - or their choice to avoid the attentions of those set upon them by other players for no in-game reason?

Interdictor modules work on all ships - not just players. Weapons can be used for defence as well as offence. Ships are the basis of the game. I am not talking about removing existing game features - merely pointing out how the proposed feature could (and very probably would) be able to be used to harass players in a manner that interdictors, weapons and ships cannot.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I see your DDF quote and I raise you:

So clearly either the DDF is out of date/irrelevant and not worth referencing anymore or player to player trading is an outstanding feature...

Good spot - not yet implemented, of course and allowable prices for items would probably fall into game determined limits. Doesn't touch on transferring credits by itself.

 

[UberCrue]

@SamuelB. I appreciate your candor sir.

My response to sum it up is.

Um... no and no and no.

Context is everything my tasty friend. First and foremost, I'm saying it's not FD's job to tell me where my morals or ethics should lay. Nor should that be the job of any game developer. Heaven forbid we hand over our conscience to companies instead of relying on our own compass. I find it insulting and very upsetting if or when a game company thinks it can tell me what's right and wrong. Especially when I fork over my hard earned moola to play their game, I want what I pay for, a game. Not a lesson in virtue. That's my job and no one elses but if you must chose, leave the politics with the professionals.

Would you take a mentally ill person to see a graphic artist? Of course not. Should he/she have any say whatsoever in the treatment or medicinal prescriptions of that person? No. Sure you may even somewhat respect the opinion of the graphic artist but they do not have any expertise in healing the aforementioned affliction. That's a doctors, therapist or psychiatrists field.

In this particular instance I don't think that played into it, it was just one of my theories. Of course they are entitled to their opinion but the moment they start forcing that on to me through games they create, then they crossed the line.

Sure some of my little quips are probably without couth, sadly I have an odd sense of humor and sometimes (well most times, lol) I'm the only that get's it.

The exploitation reference was there to say, "Don't arbitrarily throw out a moral judgement when you don't have all the facts.". FD as with probably 90% of medium sized companies (this is excluding really big ones like apple and walmart etc.) have as much of a chance of verifying a persons financial situation as they do of verifying the color of their hair. So being this as it is, it's silly to claim a moral assumption when all you have is general information like, somewhere in the Philipines. This is just not enough information to base anything off of really, let alone something as serious as exploiting someone. To which I gave several examples like this one: for all you know it's a 6 foot, 220 point American Indian living in south Bengal, has a mansion built in Italian marble and is chilling in his pool near the tiki bar, drinking coronas and grinding for credits as I type this.

People who assume someone is being exploited are just plain silly unless they are right there, to view and verify the conditions of that person first hand. And as much as people would like to claim it's happening, chances are just as good, it's not. Again, not the job or a requirement by FD in order to sell games or omit very obviously crucial game mechanics when all they have to go on is that.

Now that's probably a very specific and extreme example but again, my humor for some people is sometimes off just a bit.

Ultimately, I believe that theory to be wrong and now lean more toward the, "Avoid Gold/Credit Farmers and Currency Markets at all costs!" but it was a decent guess being as so many companies nowadays have completely altered their mechanics, interfaces, customer interactions, etc. based on extremely vague information similar to this. When all they are trying to do is be 'PC' and they really, really, truly, don't give one rat's iota who you are or if you are being exploited they are just trying to avoid losing money.

In which case, I laugh at them because they are funny to me.

 

[Kezha]

shortened

Please read my post before you quote and reply It isnt just rambling about the bad, its why its bad, and theres a bit at the end you should read the idea of how it could be done to fit most

 

[Jaeger]

First off, mandatory recognition and gratitude for keeping such an awesome franchise alive. It's latest incarnation is truly amazing and I anxiously await the release of the upcoming 'seasons'. I hope the devs will be able to deliver on all of them considering their size and scope.

Myself and a few good friends spent the entire summer of 85' playing Elite and we have all been waiting for this day to come, for what seems like a very long time.

Sorry if that seemed to drag on but I had to get it off my chest.

As a devoted player, I hope to play for a long time to come. I always play with friends, rarely alone. As of late, the lack of a direct player to player trading option has annoyingly presented itself on many occasions. Trading player to player either via credits, commodities, ships, modules or anything else you might want to trade does not exist in Elite’s current state. There are, of course a couple of inconvenient workarounds for this but nothing I was satisfied with. Although, I would love to see all those types of trading implemented, my focus for this post is Credits. This is the base for ANY multiplayer game that includes trading as a core part.

After asking around, reading multiple posts in your forums, reddit and anywhere else they pop-up.The same answer kept floating to the surface.

The developers intentionally left this option out of the game.

Now whether this is 100% the reason the dev’s chose this or just the consensus of the internet at large, I do not know. Something I always find perplexing about questions like these, is that there is almost never somewhere you can go, listed at the source, that not only answers the question at hand but gives a meaningful and descriptive answer detailing the thoughts and reasoning behind it. So, being the inquisitive person I am, I couldn’t help but ask myself...

Why O' Why was this intentionally left out of the game?

Spoiler

Which in turn, sent me on another quest to reveal any possible, logical reason this was not included in a game that uses trading as not only a class/role but as one of the core concepts of the game. Can’t trade player to player? Really?

Here are the questions, answers and possible solutions that I discovered on my journey.

Q: Does trading directly from one player to another somehow make the game unfair?

A: Um, no. Duh.

The first reason that comes to mind is unfair, player advantage for those of us with more affluence. A.k.a. Jimmy pays 20 quid @ Asian Game Coins Market for eleventy billion credits on ED. Now, Jimmy can buy any ship he wants, outfit it with anything he wants and have plenty of credits leftover to buy all that other stuff he didn't really need. All he had to do was drop some bank and poof! He's pwning in Elite.

NOT ELITE, because even though he's wasted 20 quid, he still has to level his character to achieve said status and even with a super awesome gunship that's not gonna' happen. ED seems to be very unfriendly to Jimmy and his ilk. So even with this advantage, he's still gonna' have to learn stuff. Something Jimmy really doesn't like to do. He's still gonna' have to grind stuff and he's still gonna' have to find stuff. All on his own merit and there is no amount of money he can spend to make that happen any quicker. EVEN IF, what possible reason would Jimmy have to play if all this could simply be bought for him?

Griefing? Well, maybe if he just kept suiciding himself in public viewing so we could all shed tears knowing how much we wish we had that precious Vulture or Corvette. After that, I'm just not that inventive, so I'd have to put some very serious thought into the how and why. Equating to a lot of work and remember! Jimmy hates working for stuff, hence his propensity to just throw money at things.

Not only, this doesn't really hurt anyone but Jimmy's (or Jimmy's parents) pocket book. Isn't the Elite Universe very dependent on commodities trading as an integral part of its experience? Forgive me if it seems I am comparing shades of blue but isn't the commodities market based loosely on an exchange of goods for money? Sorta' like something called a stock exchange? Isn't that kinda' reminiscent of capitalism?

How else does this harm the game or persons that play it?

Can't I just circumvent this restriction by waiting outside an easily accessible docking area and 'feeding' my buddy cargo as he docks and re-launches?

Couldn't I also just farm a whole lotta' cr then have my buddy meet me somewhere it's safe and pirate me for it?

Both still give me what I want but both are infinitely more painful than just transferring the credits from one account to another with the click of a button. Something that is fundamental in any game with trading and piracy. Why punish your good players for something you can't stop anyways?

So far as I can tell, either because the galaxy is too vast (not complaining, I love it that way and so do my wingman) or over all player numbers are lower than intended (or both) there just isn't enough people to even make this relevant enough it warrants the exclusion of it. Hence, making it more of a hindrance than an effort to achieve balance.

Q: Is it politically correct? Does it take advantage of the less advantaged?

A: Who cares! It may actually even benefit those unfortunate souls. Kinda' like a misplaced charity.

Okay, let's say that's not really it and I got it all wrong. It's more about the moral implications of game money sweat shops in 3rd world countries and your company doesn't want to be associated with contributing to poor, young, Lang Chi's exploitation for less than minimum wage. Even though without it, there wouldn't have been a job in the first place or to mention his/her's living conditions before said job or even that the pay rate may be equivalent/above that countries cost of living. There is really no way we can equivically know this, making it yet another erelevant reason to exclude it. And besides, isn't Lang getting payed to play ED anyways? Sounds like a dream job to me!

To be honest, I truly hope that's not it, because gaming development should be more about creating incredible games. Not about, "Are we being politically correct?". There is way too much of that going on lately as it is. With things like the Black Market, Illegal Goods & Stolen Goods (Doh! Damn those pirates!) it would seem very silly indeed if that were the case. Can’t a game company leave political choices and stances to politicians? What should your dev’s truly be concerned about? Should it be, “How would this addition to our game impact society?”. Or should it be, “How would this addition make our game more appealing to play?”.

One more question here, perhaps even more delving than the others, “What responsibility do game developers have in shaping the moral/ethical fiber of our communities?”. If your internal voice answered anything but, “None whatsoever.” you’re wrong. They should have absolutely no other concern, other than making the game the funnest it can possibly be.


Narcotics and slaves are my personal favorites for the illicit and immoral black marketplace choices. After looking at the big list, if I may, I would like to suggest you add a few more items and get rid of stuff that sounds redundant and even bordering on the nonsensical in some cases. Things that sound like they may actually be illegal rather than, 'Motrona Experience Jelly' (is it for sore feet?) or 'Resonating Separators' (for a particularly hard to open jar lid?). A couple suggestions would be, 'Surprise! Enema Powder', 'Colon Blowcaine' & 'Peter Poppioids'. Your welcome, those are yours to keep, free of charge.

Q: Is it because of those dirty nasty gold-farming bot masters?

A: It shouldn't be, no but as with anything that adds ease of use for real players, so to does it leave way for the dark ones to detestably profit from the eagerness of others in their quest to avoid the grind. May god have mercy on their sidewinders.

**SIDE NOTE: Sometimes I may go just a tad overboard with the embellishments. I do this to make something mundane appear unique and because I enjoy writing not just for the sake of making a valid point but also to entertain. So please forgive me this last section and transgression in hopes you enjoyed it.

It's got nothing at all to do with any of that and once again, all that came before was merely page filling drivel. The REAL DEAL is about gold farming, destabilizing your game's economy and sucking the zeal from the souls of your devoted fan/player base. Oh I am a fan! Believe you me.

Here comes that Jimmy again. With his open ended credit card and his 'Federal Gunship or bust' attitude. Having no clue or independent thought of his own, he simply wants to blow up big stuff and watch newbs cry. Knowing full well, his mom's pocket book and his good buddy, Lang, are going to do all the grind work for him.

This 'trade' agreement destabilizes the game world economy, either making things super cheap or adversely, incredibly expensive. In turn, this alienates your larger fan/player base. Forcing them to flee to other more well balanced games that don't have bots spamming the chat channels offering deals you can’t pass up because hey, “Cheap Vulture!”.

Traveling and exploring faster than any human can do, the bots very quickly spread, reaching a peak saturation point within weeks of their initial infection of the server. They invade and monitor every possible nook and cranny of Elite's galaxy. Unwittingly and with no forethought of the implications, their masters order them to follow their directives. Turning a once proud, interactive and alive community into a mostly playerless void. The greater expanses that were once lucrative trade lanes become patrolled by the largest of the heavy combat ships, completely upgraded and fully mounted. They search aimlessly, hoping for any players foolish enough to stumble into their areas. When presented, they swallow entire factions of ships wholesale. Mocking their helpless opponents, all the while devouring their remains. Leaving nothing to floatilla. What they cannot consume, they destroy.

Inevitably, this becomes a game world of ONLY players like Jimmy. With only each other to prey on, they quickly become disinterested. Forced to see the prospect of lonely, empty darkness, they become unwitting harbingers. Their fever fueled by their unquenchable desire to dominate. If they cannot buy it, it’s immediately assigned to salvage, dismantled and even the smallest parts or modules are tossed into the smelting furnaces. Progressively having to spend more and more to advance beyond the few rivals they have. Just like the proverbial panda bear abandons a crashing Type-6 Transporter, their exodus is imminently and mutually assured. Leaving only the bots in their galactic wake.

Blind and emotionless, the bots continue vainly calling out, searching for just one more mark. Increasingly more desperate and frantic are their attempts. Hunting for the very last dollar they continue to squeeze until not even the cold remnants of the server reserve remain. Flickering out, one by one, until all the calls have grown silent. Retreating back to their base CPU’s, their Generals begin planning a new invasion of more lucrative, populated game worlds.

Until only the hum of the main server pulses, like a remote warning beacon. Ominously cautioning passers by to keep their distance, less they re-awaken Jimmy, the farmers and their army of bots.

Wow. That's a pretty dark and grim future for a game that's potential rivals the light of a supernova.

Surely there is an answer and surely there is something we can do to avoid this. Other than the simpleton effort of just removing it and throwing it away. Making good players suffer for the acts of those few like Jimmy. And hey, let's try not to blame Jimmy to much either. Outside of always wanting to pay for it instead of earning it, Jimmy is actually a pretty swell guy in real life. He has a mom, she has a credit card and Jimmy knows he can use it whenever he needs to. He even donates to the red cross at least once a year. Jimmy is gonna' do what Jimmy does and no amount of removing necessary aspects of a game is gonna' change that. It's just Jimmy, he can't help himself the poor guy.

There is a very bright light at the center of the universe (or so I've been told).

YES! We can not only allow free trade on every aspect but we can also eliminate bots, gold-farmers and even accommodate users like Jimmy. Making everyone happy!

Q: Is it true what they say? Do you have a solution we can all enjoy?

A: Yes! By the power of crisco, open minded devs and the willingness to implement change, we just might pull this off. It really depends on if the devs read the forums, find this post & take it to heart. So probably not, but hey I certainly tried.

I've given this a lot of thought so I think it prudent to explain my logic, 1 step at a time which ends in a viable solution that works. Sure it might not be perfect but it gets the job done and it gets us past this whole, “Gold-farmers are Satan's Elves!”

Establishing the existence of tradable currency is as simple as explaining the barter system. Cargo/Commodities sell in the market system for credits. This, unfortunately for now, takes the place of currency trading between players. It's rudimentary and laborious but it's there and if I really, really, really want to I can give you a bunch of credits via cargo drop. Yuck.

Partially quoting from an older post I found, it very relevantly points out that player to player trades (credits, ships, cargo, modules, everything) are extremely necessary for those players wanting to pursue piracy as their career choice (temporarily or permanently). The ability to transfer all of this between players who have no connection to one another other than, "Your money or your life.", is imperative to supporting this role/class. Without its implementation you just simply aren’t a pirate. At the very least, “Your undying devotion or your life? Arrrrrr...”, just doesn’t have the same impact. I don’t think a pirate would even say that really, it’s just all I could think of to fill the quotes.

In fact, if faced with this as their only choice, it wouldn’t surprise me if the player just quit to desktop because they would be to embarrassed and ashamed to do anything else. Sure you can still wear the eye patch and talk like one but piracy should certainly be one of Elite’s paths to reach, well... Elite.

You can't stop the farmers from trying. A farmers gotta' farm just like pirates gotta' pirate. Don't hate them, embrace them! As a credit farmer, the incentive is making bank they can put in an RL bank. When they have a decent amount of credits, they sell them back to your companies currency market for what you feel is an equivalent amount of real life money. If done correctly, this makes your company a profit! Again, back to the core of the trading market concept, right?

Now, this is where the magic happens. Rather than waiting for players to make their own trading sites and setting their own values on your game's credits, you as the devs/game producers make these yourself! You set the prices/values. You control the ebb and flow. This could be as simple as a secure trading web site or as in depth as an in-game money market section.

Maybe you could even offer a special membership (one time fee or annual, whatever) that gives currency traders and credit farmers incentives or discounts. Again making your company more profit! Yay! If you wanted to be a little more strict with your currency traders and credit farmers you could make this a mandatory purchase for those wanting to pursue this, forcing them to seriously consider that as their Elite career path. A small but understandable barrier to entry (helps to avoid those nasty sales bots).

Apparently this simple step, single handily eliminates other market sales of your games valuables/currency, sanctioning the official market that your company directs and also has the added benefit of forcing out the less desirable. Those who would rather move to other, more accommodating games that don't require them to 'apply' or 'submit' personal information in order to collect. Nefarious in nature and intent on profiting at any cost those soulless users will then have only 2 choices. Conform or leave.

We’ll see you Satanic Elves in hell!

It was also suggested that this may cause some players to play the currency/valuables market rather than the main, core game itself. As was sometimes the case with other older games that took this same route. I don't really see that as possible for ED, at least as it applies to the majority of players. Anyone who get's this game, gets it for it's sure awesomeness that really, brilliantly stands on it's own. Offering an unfathomable open world with infinite possibilities and having a currency/valuables exchange would just be another facet of that game. If a few of the players eventually become money market traders or currency farmers, so be it. It's their game and like your motto implies....

Let them play it their way.

First off, mandatory resentment for destroying this franchise. You could have included fun feature like player to player trading but no FDev... you didn't.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

The obfuscation would only work if there was no possibility of the existence of the bounty being promulgated in out-of-game channels.

The avoidance being possible was not a criticism of the current bounty handling - it was pointing out that while a hypothetical randomly applied bounty was current there is no guarantee of the player being available for anyone else to collect on it.

Their loss - or their choice to avoid the attentions of those set upon them by other players for no in-game reason?

Interdictor modules work on all ships - not just players. Weapons can be used for defence as well as offence. Ships are the basis of the game. I am not talking about removing existing game features - merely pointing out how the proposed feature could (and very probably would) be able to be used to harass players in a manner that interdictors, weapons and ships cannot.

Rob, buddy. Stick with me for a moment. It's Bounty Hunting. Not Witch Hunting.

Calm. Down.

Think like a human. Not like a victim.

All proposed features are potential griefer tools, I can harass the living crap out of you with the lights on my ship. You would hate it more than if I had just put a 10 million credit bounty on your head and disappeared. I would also have more fun doing this than I would going back to the grind to earn those 10 million credits back.

Please stop living your internet life in fear of things that don't exist.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Rob, buddy. Stick with me for a moment. It's Bounty Hunting. Not Witch Hunting.

Calm. Down.

Think like a human. Not like a victim.

All proposed features are potential griefer tools, I can harass the living crap out of you with the lights on my ship. You would hate it more than if I had just put a 10 million credit bounty on your head and disappeared. I would also have more fun doing this than I would going back to the grind to earn those 10 million credits back.

Please stop living your internet life in fear of things that don't exist.

If the possibility exists for a feature to be subverted into something that has less than pleasant connotations then it probably will be - until it is nerfed.

I'm perfectly calm.

I'm thinking about what other humans could do with the feature - that's what part of any design process involves (even if the topic being discussed is simply a request) - if there are potential flaws relating to a feature, it's best to address them at the earliest stage, wouldn't you say?

There's that word - "fear" - and a broad extrapolation to "things that don't exist" - firstly, it's a game - there's nothing to fear in it, secondly, you painted a scenario earlier which showed how just such a feature could be used to harass new players for the gratification of experienced players - not a very savoury practice, in my opinion.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Except you don't need to, because the station destroyed his Cutter and cost him 60 mil or more, and it didn't cost you a single credit to exact that punishment.

You addressed the illustration, not the point I made. So I'll be more succinct this time.

It's a feature only usable by wealthy players, not those who have few credits.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

If the possibility exists for a feature to be subverted into something that has less than pleasant connotations then it probably will be - until it is nerfed.

I'm perfectly calm.

I'm thinking about what other humans could do with the feature - that's what part of any design process involves (even if the topic being discussed is simply a request) - if there are potential flaws relating to a feature, it's best to address them at the earliest stage, wouldn't you say?

There's that word - "fear" - and a broad extrapolation to "things that don't exist" - firstly, it's a game - there's nothing to fear in it, secondly, you painted a scenario earlier which showed how just such a feature could be used to harass new players for the gratification of experienced players - not a very savoury practice, in my opinion.

You're perfectly calm while you're saying this. The reasoning behind it is borderline hysterics. Following the logic you just outlined, The player base of Elite: Dangerous would have driven every last player into solo before release. Like I said, you're not going to get a single feature into a Multiplayer game that can't be used to harass other players. Here's an example.

Edit: I always forget linking a timestamped video doesn't work. Skip to 10:20. Sorry.

[video=youtube_share;qcwlFawAY74]https://youtu.be/qcwlFawAY74?t=604[/video]


Now should we cut out friend requests because they can be used to harass people?

No. Absolutely not.

So stop applying this logic to a game feature you haven't even seen in use. It's just bad for everyone.

I painted the picture of the illusion of a vet player harassing a new player. No harassment actually happens in that scenario. Please stop. This isn't healthy.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

You addressed the illustration, not the point I made. So I'll be more succinct this time.

It's a feature only usable by wealthy players, not those who have few credits.

So let's either get rid of Cutters or make them the same cost as a Hauler, because they're features that're only usable by wealthy players in their current state.

Is that what you're getting at?

 

[Robert Maynard]

You're perfectly calm while you're saying this. The reasoning behind it is borderline hysterics. Following the logic you just outlined, The player base of Elite: Dangerous would have driven every last player into solo before release. Like I said, you're not going to get a single feature into a Multiplayer game that can't be used to harass other players. Here's an example.

Edit: I always forget linking a timestamped video doesn't work. Skip to 10:20. Sorry.

https://youtu.be/qcwlFawAY74?t=604


Now should we cut out friend requests because they can be used to harass people?

No. Absolutely not.

So stop applying this logic to a game feature you haven't even seen in use. It's just bad for everyone.

I painted the picture of the illusion of a vet player harassing a new player. No harassment actually happens in that scenario. Please stop. This isn't healthy.

Why do you expect Frontier limited imposition of Pilot's Federation Bounties in the DDF Criminality final proposal to players that had actually affected the player placing the bounty? I expect that they foresaw "problems" with an unrestricted implementation.

Use a link to the video rather than the video embedding - with ;t=10m20s at the end. That works.

Players can (and do) reject friend requests. Just as players can disable comms.

Blithely suggesting that it'll all be all right if implemented is rather an optimistic attitude - I tend to the more pessimistic approach - while occasionally pleasantly surprised, I am rarely disappointed.

Why paint the example of what happens "On any given day in Eve Online" in the first place - unless you expected it to be accepted as reasonable behaviour (even if hypothetical - and you didn't suggest that it was) and it backfired....

 

[Malryc]

Ok,
So I read your (OP) whole post (you've got a good writing style btw).

*** I am very annoyed that I can't give my noobie friends a quick boost through a cred transfer ***

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you. Adding ANY sort of real money mechanic into the game, at all, will absolutely ruin it for me. If FD can come up with a brilliant work-around that doesn't require real world transactions then more power to them. Right now ED is a game that stands apart in a world of games where "Pay x to get y! It isn't game breaking, it's just for fun!" No. No. No no no no no.
HELL no. I don't want this dream of a game to lose it's personality to this most horrible of concepts that has poisoned gaming for the last decade.

Yes, you can pay real money for paint jobs. Cool. I can get with that. I've bought several. That literally changes nothing in game other than cosmetics.

In order to keep the game free of the horrible real world transaction cesspool, I am willing to deal with some minor annoyances.

 

[lefty1117]

I think the gold spamming concerns are overblown given the small instance sizes and lack of global chat. How exactly are they going to spam gold adverts? But even if we did have a real MMO infrastructure in place, with thousands of players per shard and real global chat, I would still argue that player trading should be a Thing. It's a basic feature of modern MMOs. The lack of player to player trading does not bode well for the loot and crafting system.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Why do you expect Frontier limited imposition of Pilot's Federation Bounties in the DDF Criminality final proposal to players that had actually affected the player placing the bounty? I expect that they foresaw "problems" with an unrestricted implementation.

This is pure, blind speculation. The simpler answer is that they didn't want it being exploited for credit transferring when they decided they weren't putting credit transfers in.

Use a link to the video rather than the video embedding - with ;t=10m20s at the end. That works.

Players can (and do) reject friend requests. Just as players can disable comms.

Blithely suggesting that it'll all be all right if implemented is rather an optimistic attitude - I tend to the more pessimistic approach - while occasionally pleasantly surprised, I am rarely disappointed.

Why paint the example of what happens "On any given day in Eve Online" in the first place - unless you expected it to be accepted as reasonable behaviour (even if hypothetical - and you didn't suggest that it was) and it backfired....

I have an optimistic attitude towards it because I've seen it implemented in games where players have a far less congenial attitude than ED. Games that I played for years, and I never saw it used to harass people.

In other words.... I may just be speaking from experience.

I think you need to go back and read what I said about that scenario in Eve and make sure you aren't misunderstanding anything.