Discuss the AI here!

What do you think of the new AI?

  • Too hard

    Votes: 954 46.7%
  • Just right

    Votes: 838 41.0%
  • Too easy

    Votes: 117 5.7%
  • Other (give reason)

    Votes: 134 6.6%

  • Total voters
    2,043
  • Poll closed .
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Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
There's no such thing as "just right" or "too hard" or "too easy", just as there's no "too sweet" or "too spicy" when it comes to food - it's all down to an individual's own tastes.

But what there IS is a proper frame of reference.

Someone brought up in Thailand has a very different view of "too spicy" compared to, say, someone who grew up in Finland. And likewise anyone who's drunk a can of fizzy soda from India knows that Indian drinks manufacturers have no concept of "too sweet" at all - that stuff is 100% sugar.

Point is, for folks who've been brought up on space combat games, the perception of "too hard" or "just right" is automatically skewed because of our long experience. Same goes for the folks who develop such games, and who are by necessity exposed to space combat day in, day out.

But for new players, casual players, and those who enjoy space combat but just can't get the hang of it for whatever reason (including physical limitations from injury or disability, etc) it's exactly the same as someone who's never tasted curry before suddenly being presented with a bowl of vindaloo and being told the heat is "just right" :rolleyes:

And then to have someone laughing and saying "GIT GUD" at the person who's just burned their mouth on a curry they were assured wasn't hot is just crass and boorish, and does nothing to promote our beloved game to more potential buyers.

In pure game terms, it's financial suicide for a Harmless player to be interdicted by a Deadly NPC and insta-shredded. It would be like a dragon suddenly jumping in and stomping level 1 players in the n00b zone of a game - it just doesn't happen in MMOs for exactly that reason.

If new players choose to fly into an Anarchic system, then all bets are off - just as in any MMO if a level 1 can wander into a high level zone, the first critter they meet will nom their face off. But in high security systems, low combat ranked players should NEVER be interdicted by high-rank NPCs - it's as simple as that.

For low combat-skilled players, the AI of low rank NPCs is just fine. And before anyone says "Dur dur, game realism, why can't high rank NPCs interdict low rank players dur dur..." I would stress that word "game". As in this is one. And one where we necessarily have transwarp escape pods and cargo that teleports into our holds at stations. We all left our reality check coats at the door when we came in you see, because - shock horror! - this is a game.

And games need to be bought.
And people won't buy a game they've been told has a vertical learning curve.

--------------------
TL;DR

Basically, if the combat is a bowl of vindaloo from day one, people won't buy it.

And if there's no way players can control the difficulty of the combat they face, they'll simply stop playing.

But if random encounters are matched, so that the random interdicting NPC's rank cannot exceed the player's rank in non-anarchy systems, everything will be golden.
 
The Ai is not good or bad. The AI is silly.

The AI is just programmed to turn around yourself till you're not aiming it. The AI always know if it is in sight or not, and turn around you to do not get in. That can last infinitely. For less maneuverable ship it is just facing you till one is destroy.

Not complicated and not interesting also. But challenging, you just must have the most powerful and resistant ship, that all folk !

So, has it is impossible to get contact engineer and improve your ship, you must face AI that have improve module so the challenge is greater again.

Ok done with 2.1 so...what know ?
 
Was in my taxi Sidy, and an Eagle killed me in just a few seconds.......inpulse attack and all that new staff, it was glorious, just boost and run in a straight line is no longer a thing against NPCs, ooooh this is great.

Dont have too much time this week, just updated the game, and tried how it runs, but i cant wait to play this ''new game'' we have here...............is it weird, that i dont even care about enginers that much, but its improved AI that seems to be a highlight of 2.1 for me?

So exited.
 
What is decent about the AI when they just shoot you with a rail gun and ista kill you? Is that smart AI? No it is bull    . I hate how everyone suspects me that I did something wrong even though I didn't. Those conflict zones are broken. PERIOD. It was a stupid low level mission for stupid 99K credits to kill 6 NPCs. Why the hell would I do it if the risk is so high? I can do 2 trader data missions and I get the same money.
If you are being insta killed time to rethink your build, and/or start managing pips correctly. If there is any issue with the ai, it is sitting in front of the player, but I guess that was done to combat folks sitting in reverse.
 
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What is decent about the AI when they just shoot you with a rail gun and ista kill you? Is that smart AI? No it is bull . I hate how everyone suspects me that I did something wrong even though I didn't. Those conflict zones are broken. PERIOD. It was a stupid low level mission for stupid 99K credits to kill 6 NPCs. Why the hell would I do it if the risk is so high? I can do 2 trader data missions and I get the same money.

Yes.

Rez Zone, CF zone are populated mostly by Ai with A++ mode fitted by engeneer.

That's put you on a lower level equipment compared to them and the results: well, they are in front of your eyes.

Also Ai is smarter but that doesn't mean more fun: when fighting a python it'is just the same manouvre over and over the time.

ON the other hand, if you are in a conda nimble ship can (and this is right note well) outmanouvre you...

So: Ai is improved but their modules should be tuned down a bit to allow player to get them over time...
 
If the game is too easy for you, there are things you can do to make it more challenging. You twink out your ship with all the mega-super-ultra powerful stuff, and then complain that the game is too easy. If so, DON'T use all the top end gear. I've said this in other games. If you're finding combat too easy, put less effective gear on your ship. That will make it more challenging for YOU without making it impossible for others to play.

Exactly. Anyone who is flying a corvette and taunting others about being a carebear is doing it for his own fragile ego. He probably spends most of his time ganking inferior ships and therefore doesn't get the practice in to 'git gud'.

I haven't played 2.1 yet but in 2.0 I started taking on larger wings and better ships as I got better. I've also started amassing a fleet of smaller ships and I'm really interested in buying an eagle now considering how fast and nimble it reportedly is in 2.1

I'm looking forward to trying out the AI tonight but I that's because I'm making it a little project to improve my combat skills. I can understand why people who aren't interested in combat or for whatever reason aren't any good at it are complaining if it ruins the game for them. Because that's all it is. A game. We do it for fun. There is no meaning to it other than that. It's not healthy to base your own self esteem on other people's lack of progress in a computer game. It means that you always need to put others down rather than improve yourself. It's a constantly shifting goal post where you can never be happy with yourself.
 
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Yes.

Rez Zone, CF zone are populated mostly by Ai with A++ mode fitted by engeneer.

That's put you on a lower level equipment compared to them and the results: well, they are in front of your eyes.

Also Ai is smarter but that doesn't mean more fun: when fighting a python it'is just the same manouvre over and over the time.

ON the other hand, if you are in a conda nimble ship can (and this is right note well) outmanouvre you...

So: Ai is improved but their modules should be tuned down a bit to allow player to get them over time...

No, the ai is still as dumb as a brick, it just behaves differently and comes equipped with better equipment; adjust.
 
The AI needs to stay right where it is. Mostly because anything lower would kill the fun for +65% of the players. But also because much of the current feedback is based on a lack of engi upgrades. And Engi upgrades are MASSIVE, possibly overpowered even. We debated this ad nauseum in the Beta and 80% of players who had experience the full features of Beta (including engi upgrades) always came to the same conclusion. The current AI is the sweet spot.


The economic incentives however, may need to be relooked at. So far it doesn't sound like people are losing money. But maybe there aren't making enough on average. They are certainly having a ton of fun though, and once they get Engi Upgrades, then the money will start rolling in again. :) So any premature CR/kill increase would have to be nerfed again in a month or two.
So isn't that a big problem for vanilla if the required fix comes from Horizons?
 
I think the problem is just that tactics that previously worked don't work well anymore, its more about changing what you are doing then getting better at Combat. I mean getting better can't hurt, mistakes and doing reckless things in general gets punishet harder then it previous did.

If hard to comes to hard legging it still works as good as always. Knowing when to fight and when to run is the most important skill to have and when perfected makes you pretty much indestructable ;)
 
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Just running delivery missions last night, in a A-rated Python, I spent more in repairs than I gained in mission rewards. While I wasn't killed, the risk/reward ratio for even simple activities is now completely out of whack.

I have no problem with a stronger AI in CZs, haz RES etc, but the idea that you have to be a highly competent combat pilot (in a combat focused ship) to even consider leaving port is frankly, daft.

Ive had the same experience. My combat rank is Expert, if it matters. When doing even simple cargo missions, the interdiction rate is now 100%. You always get attacked. And the attackers are hard! I had to run from a Viper while in my A rated Python because he was so fast there was no way to target him. Plus he kept crashing into me. His rank was Deadly. Also got attacked by a Deadly Python which was even worse. This is amazingly unfun. The changes have gone much too far for us casual pilots.
 
What is decent about the AI when they just shoot you with a rail gun and ista kill you? Is that smart AI? No it is bull . I hate how everyone suspects me that I did something wrong even though I didn't. Those conflict zones are broken. PERIOD. It was a stupid low level mission for stupid 99K credits to kill 6 NPCs. Why the hell would I do it if the risk is so high? I can do 2 trader data missions and I get the same money.


Rail guns can only hit you if you stay directly in front of the NPC. They are fixed weapons. Just stay close and on his flank/rear, and he can't hit you. He may take a ring or two when you close the distance, but that all they're getting, and then it's over for him.

Also, next time you grab a mission, don't look at the money. Look at the rank. If the mission says "dangerous" rank recommended, then you maybe facing some tougher NPCs. If the money is too for the risk, pass, and wait for a better one.

I think the money is tied to the number of NPCs, but I suspect also tied to your faction reputation. Try earning better faction rep, and then maybe you'll get missions that are worth more money. But try to take ones with lower combat rank until you learn how to avoid damage a little better. There are lots of tricks for this besides the obvious Chaff :) Msg me for more info if you are interested.
 
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I vote "other" because there is one thing I don't like. (I explain later on) The AI in general had to be "fixed" in my opinion, because in the past the behavior of the NPC's was monumentaly stupid and they were brainless vegetables! The other thing I've mentioned I don't like is, that NPC's have too early access to enginieer stuff. Last night I jumped into a thread 1 USS and find 4 novice npc's (2 Sidewinders, 2 Cobra MK III) they gave me a hell of a ride... 1 of them was using the thermal shock because my heat wen't up like no ones business.

Now comes the thing: When I don't where in my fully A rated Cutter with A8 prismatic shields I where literally toast! When I imagine I begin this game today in a E rated Sidewinder... No thanks. The NPC behavior is pretty good but their modded equipment has to be tweaked a bit.

Just my two cents

Cheers Barthok
 
Are you SIRIUS? :D
This folk just made the one of the best posts of this entire forum.

Now, i am feeling insulted by you.

Purleeeease, Algol or bust.

I don't disagree they feel passionately about the matter, I just don't understand why some posters feel the need to create mental images of the playerbase in their minds that are less than flattering, and then lay them down in combative posts. I should probably be used to it by know though, 'twas ever the way about these parts.

Are you feeling insulted? Sorry that may be my natural musk, which some have described as unnatural and relentless. Or the cold breath of the spider collective I am convinced is watching my every move, waiting for me to let my guard down. But I won't, not ever. They'll see. They told me it was the pills, but I'll show them all. You won't get me, spiders! >:O
 
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There's no such thing as "just right" or "too hard" or "too easy", just as there's no "too sweet" or "too spicy" when it comes to food - it's all down to an individual's own tastes.

But what there IS is a proper frame of reference.

Someone brought up in Thailand has a very different view of "too spicy" compared to, say, someone who grew up in Finland. And likewise anyone who's drunk a can of fizzy soda from India knows that Indian drinks manufacturers have no concept of "too sweet" at all - that stuff is 100% sugar.

Point is, for folks who've been brought up on space combat games, the perception of "too hard" or "just right" is automatically skewed because of our long experience. Same goes for the folks who develop such games, and who are by necessity exposed to space combat day in, day out.

But for new players, casual players, and those who enjoy space combat but just can't get the hang of it for whatever reason (including physical limitations from injury or disability, etc) it's exactly the same as someone who's never tasted curry before suddenly being presented with a bowl of vindaloo and being told the heat is "just right" :rolleyes:

And then to have someone laughing and saying "GIT GUD" at the person who's just burned their mouth on a curry they were assured wasn't hot is just crass and boorish, and does nothing to promote our beloved game to more potential buyers.

In pure game terms, it's financial suicide for a Harmless player to be interdicted by a Deadly NPC and insta-shredded. It would be like a dragon suddenly jumping in and stomping level 1 players in the n00b zone of a game - it just doesn't happen in MMOs for exactly that reason.

If new players choose to fly into an Anarchic system, then all bets are off - just as in any MMO if a level 1 can wander into a high level zone, the first critter they meet will nom their face off. But in high security systems, low combat ranked players should NEVER be interdicted by high-rank NPCs - it's as simple as that.

For low combat-skilled players, the AI of low rank NPCs is just fine. And before anyone says "Dur dur, game realism, why can't high rank NPCs interdict low rank players dur dur..." I would stress that word "game". As in this is one. And one where we necessarily have transwarp escape pods and cargo that teleports into our holds at stations. We all left our reality check coats at the door when we came in you see, because - shock horror! - this is a game.

And games need to be bought.
And people won't buy a game they've been told has a vertical learning curve.

--------------------
TL;DR

Basically, if the combat is a bowl of vindaloo from day one, people won't buy it.

And if there's no way players can control the difficulty of the combat they face, they'll simply stop playing.

But if random encounters are matched, so that the random interdicting NPC's rank cannot exceed the player's rank in non-anarchy systems, everything will be golden.

And people wont buy a game that has no challenge either, and games like Dark Souls and DayZ show there is a huge market for challenging games. You can frame it anyway you want, at the end of the day there will be some kind of difficulty that will be too challenging for some and too easy for others.

Besides, its way too soon for this poll for those not in beta. Any change in AI requires some experimenting and learning, and people who immediately run to the forums only show they just cant handle the concept of change.

This happened before, btw. Last AI upgrade, 1.4 I think, people also stormed the forums in droves claiming it was too hard within hours of release. A few days or weeks later almost everyone agreed it was actually quite easy.

People should just get in a cheap ship and bumble around a bit. If after a few sessions you still die every few minutes you have a reason to come to the forums. If one just cant accept the usual tactics dont work, well, boohoo. ;)
 
<massive post about spicy food>

You lost me about the second time you mentioned spicy food.

Games need a challenge, as well as things to do, or people will leave. I'm sure the AI will see changes but "the sky is falling" is a bit overly dramatic.

AI is more challenging. It can kill you. This is blowing people's minds. I'm not sure it's quite so dramatic that most of the community is going to up sticks and leave.. And I'm sure Frontier is going to ensure upcoming changes address any unexpected outcomes, including spawn rates and competency.

As they always do.
 
I'm enjoying my brief skirmishes with the new AI. Early days and i'm still learning new flying techniques and ways of countering their ways of flying in combat.
Some are def displaying more human-like flying styles though, and that's quite refreshing...
 
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