Dispelling misinformation and myths about VR to foster better community understanding

[Deleted member 110222]

Sure, and if FDev suddenly decided HOTAS controls and gamepads were not part of their vision, I would hope players would just suck it up and crack on with mice&keyboard. Or if in the interests of speed optimisation the maximum resolution was going to be dropped to 1280x720, I would hope people wouldn’t complain it was unplayable on their 4K monitors.

There is no such thing as “I cannot play ED without VR” - unless you’ve been playing ED in VR, in my case for years, when it becomes “I will not play ED without VR” because, well, you’d probably understand if it you weren’t VR-less

"when it becomes “I will not play ED without VR”"

That's... Literally what I said.

You're choosing not to. You cannot tell me that there is anything stopping you other than your personal wants, though. I am afraid that is very much a you problem.

Sorry, it is what it is.

And yep', of course they could close higher res' as an option, or block HOTAS.

I dare say that isn't much of an issue though as that is just resolution and input, rather than an entire new system to support...

But for the sake of inclusion, yep', could happen of course. Anything can. I think you must be a bit silly to think that actually has any relevance to the discussion, however.

 

[Melvich]

"when it becomes “I will not play ED without VR”"

That's... Literally what I said.

You're choosing not to. You cannot tell me that there is anything stopping you other than your personal wants, though. I am afraid that is very much a you problem.

Sorry, it is what it is.

And yep', of course they could close higher res' as an option, or block HOTAS.

I dare say that isn't much of an issue though as that is just resolution and input, rather than an entire new system to support...

But for the sake of inclusion, yep', could happen of course. Anything can. I think you must be a bit silly to think that actually has any relevance to the discussion, however.

You are correct
But you must also understand that for people with VR, your suggestion is a choice to play in what for most will be a vastly substandard way.
Not very attractive, especially when they could play in VR before Odyssey. Which is why most people who use VR are either annoyed or disappointed - and that's completely fair.

 

[Arioch]

…I dare say that isn't much of an issue though as that is just resolution and input, rather than an entire new system to support...

I’m sure HOTAS users and those with wonderfully huge monitors would be perfectly understanding

Anyway, I’m off to play in the entirely new system they’ve been supporting since Oculus DK1 days - on-foot VR is pretty cool using the camera suite glitch

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

And the guy from Croteam also says something which proves my point:
This means two things: M+K movement controls are not consindered suitable for VR Fps games and the game needs to be adapted to work with motion controllers properly.

As Wickfut said:

You think players want to jump out of their cockpit seats, grab a different set of controllers and prance around their rooms during some FPS section?

No. We just want to play the game with the same controller, with the same VR headset and without the jarring 2d grey border. We want the same game but in VR. If I wanted the motion controls fps then I'd just play Pavlov. This is just completely silly. I'll need to load in VorpX to play a VR game in VR.
Hello Games destroyed NMS by forcing the janky motion controls.

And I totally agree with him there. Hand controllers could be nice if Elite were more of an RPG as opposed to an FPS, and maybe in time it will move in that direction? But if it stays as is, KBAM are probably optimal.

Motion sickness in VR can occur if your visual perception is not aligned with you body and head movement. This can happen due to latency (low Fps) or forced (head) movement, especially without any frame of reference. Otherwise VR should not cause motion sickness.

[Edited to clarify meaning] Odyssey on foot in VR with that stupid virtual that it currently is displayed on is for many, including me, a nausea trigger because the virtual flat screen on which the game view is rendered doesn't move with the headset. When playing Odyssey in VR, when I look around, my head moves, the view and the virtualscreen stays still, however my lunch ascends once centimetre up from my esophagus and I start to feel dizzy.

Editeople in this thread advertised mouse look and I was trying to explain, that it is a bad idea to use in VR. Headlook is obviously an equally problematic solution, when used to aim in a VR Fps game.
People are trying to find a cheap way to make EDO Fps work and all I am trying to say is, the cheapest yet most feasible implementation is the one FDev chose. Sure they could add some options to tweak it, but for a good or even standard implementation motion controls are mandatory and those require some basic changes as to how EDO is played on foot (as the guy from Croteam also mentions).

Mouse look in VR is bad. VERY BARFTASTICLY BAD! Headam / FaceGun is also bad. Head LOOK and Mouse / Gamepad aim is good. And the best of it is, the game more or less supports that scheme already as evidenced by the Exemander "plinking" method of hijacking the vanity cam and removing the hud.

You think players want to jump out of their cockpit seats, grab a different set of controllers and prance around their rooms during some FPS section?

I guarantee that there WILL be people tripping up and faceplanting their headsets into walls / desks etc, as well as potential injuries when tehy misjudge the essentially blindfolded transition from on foot roomscale FPS to seated piloting in their gaming chair.

No. We just want to play the game with the same controller, with the same VR headset and without the jarring 2d grey border. We want the same game but in VR.

This is one of those rare moments when the planets line us such that the easiest solution is the best solution, as what you are saying is the game will be ebtter with the current controls and thus the least amount of effort expended....

If I wanted the motion controls fps then I'd just play Pavlov. This is just completely silly. I'll need to load in VorpX to play a VR game in VR.
Hello Games destroyed NMS by forcing the janky motion controls.

Motion control games are awesome, and were Elite JUST an FPS / RPG then aye, it would NEED to be a roomscale experience to be VR, but with its piloting elements as well, I think the transitioning back and forth would be too clunky.

"when it becomes “I will not play ED without VR”"

That's... Literally what I said.

You're choosing not to. You cannot tell me that there is anything stopping you other than your personal wants, though. I am afraid that is very much a you problem.

Sorry, it is what it is.

And yep', of course they could close higher res' as an option, or block HOTAS.

I dare say that isn't much of an issue though as that is just resolution and input, rather than an entire new system to support...

But for the sake of inclusion, yep', could happen of course. Anything can. I think you must be a bit silly to think that actually has any relevance to the discussion, however.

Do you realise that your comments thus far are absolutely absurd and cast an unfavourable light on you? I'm going to guess that you aren't a pillock IRL, but this post, and the one above suggest otherwise?

 

[VR - wickfut]

I dare say that isn't much of an issue though as that is just resolution and input, rather than an entire new system to support...

What's this new system which needs supporting that you're on about? The VR, which has been in the game since beta?

 

[GraXXoR]

I think one of the main problems between VR and non-VR players is our inability to convey the experience to them.

It's just something you have to try, keep a while at it until you get accustomed to it and have your nausea in check and then you will feel the difference.

It is often equaled to Track-IR but that doesn't cut it.

If I may be crass for a moment, it's like explaining to a "one-arm-web surfer" what real sex feels like.
I'm sure they have an idea in their heads about what it feels like, but until they actually try it, that's all it is: in their heads.

I do play Elite in 2D quite often, when I don't have much time to play: much like I still surf with one arm from time to time even though I live in Central Tokyo ;-) but the sheer scale of Elite's implementation of VR is completely awe inspiring after seeing everything in miniature on a TV screen... Even TrackIR does nothing to convey the sheer scale of ED. It's only when you first fly through a maillot in VR that the unimaginably colossal SCALE of ED becomes apparent.... To this day, since my first Kickstarter Oculus DK1, there is NOTHING that comes close to the immersion of 3D, to the point that I have been spoilt by ED's early handling of it, to the point that Star Citizen feels small compared to ED in VR even though ED in 2D is crap at expressing scale compared to SC.

Also, one thing I never understand is this idea that VR players are incapable of moving from a joystick to a mouse in FPS with their helmet on... Seriously, how challenged do they think they are to be unable to remember where they put a mouse?....

I hate shampoo in my eyes and basically shower with my eyes closed, yet I know where every single bottle is on the shelf and where the hot and cold taps are... I am quite capable of finding a razor and shaving cream and not injuring myself when I trim my beard... with my eyes closed.

So I am quite able to remember where I put a fricking mouse... I also know where all the keys on my keyboard are, since they have NEVER MOVED since the 80s when I got my first IBM. How hard is it to learn?

What a world of wimps we live in today... to think we managed to get to the moon, while people are unable to find the C key on their keyboard without looking.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I am not saying it is not possible, all I am saying it is below standard, not considered a good experience for most players. If FDev would roll that out, I can already imagine the reviews on Steam.

Yep FD mustn't disrupt their current glowing ED:O reviews on steam . (I am just teasing btw)

But seriously. Skyrim vr DOES have glowing reviews and plays ok with a pad

 

[Darkfyre99]

You think players want to jump out of their cockpit seats, grab a different set of controllers and prance around their rooms during some FPS section?

If given the option?

YES!!!

 

[VR - wickfut]

Also, one thing I never understand is this idea that VR players are incapable of moving from a joystick to a mouse in FPS with their helmet on... Seriously, how challenged do they think they are to be unable to remember where they put a mouse?....

Well that really depends if you're sat in a cockpit with a full hotas set up and your desk is on the other side of the room. Those headset wires can get a bit tangled up in your chair.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

...

As Wickfut said:

And I totally agree with him there. Hand controllers could be nice if Elite were more of an RPG as opposed to an FPS, and maybe in time it will move in that direction? But if it stays as is, KBAM are probably optimal.

AND OR that stupid virtual flat screen on which the rendered view doesn't move with the headset. When playing OPdyssey in VR, my head moves left, the view stays still, and my lunch ascends once CM up from my esophagus.

Mouse look in VR is bad. VERY BARFTASTICLY BAD! Headam / FaceGun is also bad. Head LOOK and Mouse / Gamepad aim is good. And the best of it is, the game more or less supports that scheme already as evidenced by the Exemander "plinking" method of hijacking the vanity cam and removing the hud.

I guarantee that there WILL be people tripping up and faceplanting their headsets into walls / desks etc, as well as potential injuries when tehy misjudge the essentially blindfolded transition from on foot roomscale FPS to seated piloting in their gaming chair.

This is one of those rare moments when the planets line us such that the easiest solution is the best solution, as what you are saying is the game will be ebtter with the current controls and thus the least amount of effort expended....

Motion control games are awesome, and were Elite JUST an FPS / RPG then aye, it would NEED to be a roomscale experience to be VR, but with its piloting elements as well, I think the transitioning back and forth would be too clunky.

Do you realise that your comments thus far are absolutely absurd and cast an unfavourable light on you? I'm going to guess that you aren't a pillock IRL, but this post, and the one above suggest otherwise?

I'm unsure how a truth is absurd.

But you do you.

Yes, it is normal to get angry and upset with people telling you a truth you don't like. I respect that.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

What's this new system which needs supporting that you're on about? The VR, which has been in the game since beta?

I don't know mate, ask FD.

For one reason or another, they have decided your VR headset isn't worth it right now.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

...

I'm unsure how a truth is absurd.

But you do you.

Yes, it is normal to get angry and upset with people telling you a truth you don't like. I respect that.

So you don't think that sauntering into a thread which is aimed at being a plenary covering VR, and telling us to play on monitors might come across as, misguided?

 

[Melvich]

So you don't think that sauntering into a thread which is aimed at being a plenary covering VR, and telling us to play on monitors might come across as, misguided?

Given their demonstrated inability to read a room,willingness to tell 'truths' that are valid yet completely tone deaf and largely irrelevant,and then appearing to imagine that the reaction to their 'truth' is anger and upset, rather than amused pity...I'm guessing not.

 

[Iron Golem]

I've spent a few hours updating this into the Q & A I spoke about earlier, and while it's not perfect, it's about as muc as I can take in one sitting, working on a laptop screen with myriad copy pasting. When I came to the back page to post this update, first thing I see is @Mogen Teras saying "Messaged a Mod about this thread, this is getting out of hand." - so now I'm wondering what's been going on, guess I've got some fires to put out...

Trolls are trying to slide derail your quality thread.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

What's this new system which needs supporting that you're on about? The VR, which has been in the game since beta?

Actually, VR has been in the game since the first Alpha in December 2013...

 

[[VR] Mad Life Crisis]

Two more myths smashed recently.

You will not need a Facebook account to run Oculus software.
Facebook have no intention of placing ads into VR.

 

[Iron Golem]

If I may be crass for a moment, it's like explaining to a "one-arm-web surfer" what real sex feels like.
I'm sure they have an idea in their heads about what it feels like, but until they actually try it, that's all it is: in their heads.

I do play Elite in 2D quite often, when I don't have much time to play: much like I still surf with one arm from time to time even though I live in Central Tokyo ;-) but the sheer scale of Elite's implementation of VR is completely awe inspiring after seeing everything in miniature on a TV screen... Even TrackIR does nothing to convey the sheer scale of ED. It's only when you first fly through a maillot in VR that the unimaginably colossal SCALE of ED becomes apparent.... To this day, since my first Kickstarter Oculus DK1, there is NOTHING that comes close to the immersion of 3D, to the point that I have been spoilt by ED's early handling of it, to the point that Star Citizen feels small compared to ED in VR even though ED in 2D is crap at expressing scale compared to SC.

Also, one thing I never understand is this idea that VR players are incapable of moving from a joystick to a mouse in FPS with their helmet on... Seriously, how challenged do they think they are to be unable to remember where they put a mouse?....

I hate shampoo in my eyes and basically shower with my eyes closed, yet I know where every single bottle is on the shelf and where the hot and cold taps are... I am quite capable of finding a razor and shaving cream and not injuring myself when I trim my beard... with my eyes closed.

So I am quite able to remember where I put a fricking mouse... I also know where all the keys on my keyboard are, since they have NEVER MOVED since the 80s when I got my first IBM. How hard is it to learn?

What a world of wimps we live in today... to think we managed to get to the moon, while people are unable to find the C key on their keyboard without looking.

You trim your beard with your eyes closed?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Note to all participants: please discuss the topic. Other participants are not the topic. Failure to comply will result in advisories, warnings, reply bans and / or thread closure.

 

[[VR] Mad Life Crisis]

VR is basically just two images, spread slightly apart

No, it's not. Each image has to reflect the relevant angles that the human eye looks at (an average, at least). Closer and farther objects have to be processed differently to produce depth. This along with the images being constantly updated at a given refresh rate to account for the head movement and position is a whole lot more work on top.

 

[Rock Hunter]

Apologies but I only managed to get five pages in before I‘d had enough.

Is Odyssey so bad, general unrest so heightened, that we’ve turned on each other over what display we choose to use. Lord Of The Flies over whether we use a Benq, Dell or HP; VR, 4K or 1080?

With regard to the back and forth between Red and Jay over VR in Odyssey….I’m with Jay in so far as I’d love some future development, but then I’m with Red because, at least currently, it simply isn’t going to happen when so many players are unhappy or unable to play with stable/usable frame rates - monitor or VR.

I’m also hoping that if FDev can get things back on track for Odyssey some of the nuts bickering of the last month or so can recede for a bit….man, I feel like some old Peacenik hippy wanting to put flowers in the barrels of everyone’s Karma AR-50s.

Peace out Dudes