Disproportionate crime response

[NoobyMcNoobFace]

I'm a fairly new player (December steam sale), and I admit I only really scan read the changes to this version. However, it seems to me that the new C&P system is overly punitive for minor infractions. Apologies that this got long, but I wanted to explain the sense of 'injustice' from this system.

I play 'clean' - as in I don't smuggle, I don't pirate, and I don't shoot random ships for giggles.

I bought a new chieftain and kitted it out in 6 Andromedae. It's my first fighter, so I thought I'd just try it out in a nearby highres. I find a wanted gunship, KW scan it, then open up (fully gimballed weapons -hey, I'm new!). Suddenly I have a bounty and now I'm wanted in the system. I know for sure that no one else was near, so my only assumption is that I've fallen foul of accidentally hitting a small fighter launched from the gunship (just read someone elses post to this extent on the forums). So much for gimbal tracking but hey ho.

It's a 200CR bounty. Just 200 CR. But now every police ship in the area is honing in on my position with red radar indicators. Ignoring all the other 100k+ baddies in the area, they're after me. Fine: I'll get out of dodge - hop over to 7 Andromedae (25,000CR damage in the escape, but I'll take that on the chin).

I'm not wanted here. I dock. I think: I can't go straight back because I'm wanted still. Okay, fine, I was going to go to Deciat anyway to explore the new engineering options, I'll jump in my alternative ship (better jump range) and sort it all out there.

So when I get there, I find that you can't pay off a fine unless you're in the same ship. WHY? Why can't I? What possible logical reason requires me to pay off a fine in the same ship? My money isn't in that ship. My ranks and materials aren't in that ship. No other status factors in the game are tied to that ship.

So I choose to transfer my ship. It's Wanted still, and now has a high transfer fee penalty because it's wanted. However, it's NOT wanted in the system it is docked in, and it is NOT wanted in the system I'm in, and it is NOT wanted in any system between where I was and am now. So why a transfer penalty? Is this even proportional to the 200CR bounty?

I don't really know what the idea behind the changes were, but it seems to me that a small (completely accidental) infraction like this should not immediately slap a galactic penalty on me that is incredibly difficult to pay off.

Bounties shouldn't kick in until you've hit a certain fine level in my opinion. If you have a bounty, then there should be a way to clear it without going to Intermediary Factions and remotely paying a fine; and without you having to smuggle yourself in to a base. It's just all a bit backwards with bounties and fines. At least, I think so as a "clean" player.

 

[Ouberos]

Meanwhile the billionaire murder hobos rack up kill after kill. It seems to me that criminal players are the ones least effected by the changes.

I'm not a fan of the new system but it isn't limiting my gameplay too much. It does seem to have a disproportionate effect on newer players or players who accidentally break the law. No doubt people will say these things will be changed soon but to be fair this was flagged up quite a lot in the Beta and wasn't changed then so there isn't really any grounds for this argument.

The C&P system does have some good things but the extra time required and cash it drains take some of the fun out of that gameplay. If something isn't fun people play other things.

 

[AzraelDirge]

Meanwhile the billionaire murder hobos rack up kill after kill. It seems to me that criminal players are the ones least effected by the changes.

I'm not a fan of the new system but it isn't limiting my gameplay too much. It does seem to have a disproportionate effect on newer players or players who accidentally break the law. No doubt people will say these things will be changed soon but to be fair this was flagged up quite a lot in the Beta and wasn't changed then so there isn't really any grounds for this argument.

The C&P system does have some good things but the extra time required and cash it drains take some of the fun out of that gameplay. If something isn't fun people play other things.

The people that have accepted being criminals and learned to play around that choice are better at dealing with it, yes. Many of us have been living as criminals in this game for quite a while, and learned how to operate despite that. The difference that's making people angry now is that the day to day criminal activity people got used to is being cracked down on, and requiring them to think about their actions.

 

[crushdepth]

"CRUCIFIXION??!?"

"Yeah, first offence".

 

[JesusRocks1988]

I'm a fairly new player (December steam sale), and I admit I only really scan read the changes to this version. However, it seems to me that the new C&P system is overly punitive for minor infractions. Apologies that this got long, but I wanted to explain the sense of 'injustice' from this system.

I play 'clean' - as in I don't smuggle, I don't pirate, and I don't shoot random ships for giggles.

I bought a new chieftain and kitted it out in 6 Andromedae. It's my first fighter, so I thought I'd just try it out in a nearby highres. I find a wanted gunship, KW scan it, then open up (fully gimballed weapons -hey, I'm new!). Suddenly I have a bounty and now I'm wanted in the system. I know for sure that no one else was near, so my only assumption is that I've fallen foul of accidentally hitting a small fighter launched from the gunship (just read someone elses post to this extent on the forums). So much for gimbal tracking but hey ho.

It's a 200CR bounty. Just 200 CR. But now every police ship in the area is honing in on my position with red radar indicators. Ignoring all the other 100k+ baddies in the area, they're after me. Fine: I'll get out of dodge - hop over to 7 Andromedae (25,000CR damage in the escape, but I'll take that on the chin).

I'm not wanted here. I dock. I think: I can't go straight back because I'm wanted still. Okay, fine, I was going to go to Deciat anyway to explore the new engineering options, I'll jump in my alternative ship (better jump range) and sort it all out there.

So when I get there, I find that you can't pay off a fine unless you're in the same ship. WHY? Why can't I? What possible logical reason requires me to pay off a fine in the same ship? My money isn't in that ship. My ranks and materials aren't in that ship. No other status factors in the game are tied to that ship.

So I choose to transfer my ship. It's Wanted still, and now has a high transfer fee penalty because it's wanted. However, it's NOT wanted in the system it is docked in, and it is NOT wanted in the system I'm in, and it is NOT wanted in any system between where I was and am now. So why a transfer penalty? Is this even proportional to the 200CR bounty?

I don't really know what the idea behind the changes were, but it seems to me that a small (completely accidental) infraction like this should not immediately slap a galactic penalty on me that is incredibly difficult to pay off.

Bounties shouldn't kick in until you've hit a certain fine level in my opinion. If you have a bounty, then there should be a way to clear it without going to Intermediary Factions and remotely paying a fine; and without you having to smuggle yourself in to a base. It's just all a bit backwards with bounties and fines. At least, I think so as a "clean" player.

This is a bit strange... I thought accidentally hitting a ship should give you only a fine, not a bounty, anymore?
If it's giving you a bounty for accidentally hitting a fighter coming out of the ship, then it's undoubtedly a bug. Everything else goes from there, really - you shouldn't be getting such small bounties, and they should no longer illicit such a strong security response AFAIK.

The thing about paying off your bounties in the ship you committed the crime in is by design though. FD moved bounties from CMDRs to ships, so your ship is "hot" and its movement around the galaxy is illegal, so you pay higher costs for moving it around. That's not to say I agree with it - it is one of the stranger changes to the C&P system, but as far as I understand it, it basically wants to prevent you from simply paying off the bounty and going about your business (if you're a murder-hobo, that is), so it adds more inconvenience to the chain and keeps the uber ships out of play for longer (in theory).

 

[d8veh]

The biggest problem is that people haven't yet figured out how to work with the new C&P system. Not much has changed in reality. Previously, if you got an assault charge, you got a small bounty on you and the cops immediately turned on you, so nothing has changed there. previously, to get rid of it, you had to jump out of the system, wait 8 minutes, then you can return. Now you have to jump to a low security system and find the interstellar factor and pay him before you can return. That would take about 8 minutes on average, so nothing has really changed there either.

AFASICS, everybody that's starting threads like this hasn't a clue about how the C&P system works. It was the same before, so nothing has changed there either.

I guess what we need is a C&P ticket when they give you a fine or a bounty. On the back is instructions for how to deal with it, like when you get a speeding ticket or a parking ticket in real life.

 

[coca_fr]

And does that means that gankers can simply outfit a whole ganking ship fleet and therefore continue their slaughter in clean ship (with waiting time notoriety get to 0) ?

Hot ship concept is good but bounty should remain to Cmdr identity.

 

[JesusRocks1988]

The biggest problem is that people haven't yet figured out how to work with the new C&P system. Not much has changed in reality. Previously, if you got an assault charge, you got a small bounty on you and the cops immediately turned on you, so nothing has changed there. previously, to get rid of it, you had to jump out of the system, wait 8 minutes, then you can return. Now you have to jump to a low security system and find the interstellar factor and pay him before you can return. That would take about 8 minutes on average, so nothing has really changed there either.

AFASICS, everybody that's starting threads like this hasn't a clue about how the C&P system works. It was the same before, so nothing has changed there either.

I guess what we need is a C&P ticket when they give you a fine or a bounty. On the back is instructions for how to deal with it, like when you get a speeding ticket or a parking ticket in real life.

Actually that HAS changed. If you accidentally assault a clean ship, you get a fine, which does not illicit a security response, and you can just go to the station in the system to pay it off in the contacts panel - not to Interstellar Factors.

 

[S. Belmont]

I'm playing "clean" commander too. I was on a trade run with my T-9 when I got interdicted by wanted npc Viper mk4. I carry minelaunchers just for fun for these kind of encounters, and decided to lay out a proper sea of mines behind me. Police arrived few moments later to help me, but poor thing collided with my mines. So now I was wanted, for protecting my self

So I went to nearby low sec. system and visited local IF, clean again. While it was no big deal, now I think twice if I should engage small ships like this just for fun... So in a way, it feels its not fair, but then again, it was not really big annoyance. Im still happy with the feeling of threat if I actually decide to do something illegal.

 

[Marra Morgan]

The people that have accepted being criminals and learned to play around that choice are better at dealing with it, yes. Many of us have been living as criminals in this game for quite a while, and learned how to operate despite that. The difference that's making people angry now is that the day to day criminal activity people got used to is being cracked down on, and requiring them to think about their actions.

AFASICS, everybody that's starting threads like this hasn't a clue about how the C&P system works. It was the same before, so nothing has changed there either.

Very good points here.

I do think that the new system is a huge improvement, with a lot more consideration and planning now required for any venture where committing a crime, intentionally or not, may be involved. People will adapt, as all smart people do

 

[NoobyMcNoobFace]

The biggest problem is that people haven't yet figured out how to work with the new C&P system. Not much has changed in reality.

I guess what we need is a C&P ticket when they give you a fine or a bounty. On the back is instructions for how to deal with it, like when you get a speeding ticket or a parking ticket in real life.

Yes, yes. It's a L2P problem.

I don't really have much of a view of "how it was" - I suspect only long term players can have a view on that. Does it matter though? I'm simply pointing out that as it is now, I feel an accidental infraction has a fairly sizeable impact that is disproportionate to the infringement.

A stray shot that I couldn't avoid - okay, a small fine. But the cost and play time to resolve what actually happened isn't right. All the police zoom in on me and ignore the ships with CR100k+ wanted statuses, for a measly CR200 infraction? I've got to go to a "money launderer" in effect to clear my name: there's no straight forward LEGAL way to do this where I can turn myself in and pay it off? And my ship is wanted across the galaxy if I want to transfer it, but not if I just want to fly it from A to B ?

I don't think it's logical.

 

[Hevak]

Yes, yes. It's a L2P problem.

I don't really have much of a view of "how it was" - I suspect only long term players can have a view on that. Does it matter though? I'm simply pointing out that as it is now, I feel an accidental infraction has a fairly sizeable impact that is disproportionate to the infringement.

A stray shot that I couldn't avoid - okay, a small fine. But the cost and play time to resolve what actually happened isn't right. All the police zoom in on me and ignore the ships with CR100k+ wanted statuses, for a measly CR200 infraction? I've got to go to a "money launderer" in effect to clear my name: there's no straight forward LEGAL way to do this where I can turn myself in and pay it off? And my ship is wanted across the galaxy if I want to transfer it, but not if I just want to fly it from A to B ?

I don't think it's logical.

You're absolutely right, your post is not logical at all.

The IF is the legal way you turn yourself in and pay. The illegal way? Oh that's making some schmuck hunt you down and kill you for the bounty your filthy criminal head had on it.

Your ship is not wanted everywhere. But everyone knows your ship is wanted somewhere. That's very logical. I mean it happens now in real life in 2018. You know license plates and all that?

What's illogical is that anyone but criminals will in anyway help you, let you transfer your ship or anything at all. The logical thing with anyone but a criminal faction is either as soon as you pop out near a station you'd just be obliterated, or else when you land, sent straight to jail to serve a punishment. But in the ED universe there is a bit of logic in how it works. The factions generally are conspiring against each other. So what do you want now? The logical approach or the less logical and less penalizing one?

Police don't care about money in ED, they care about bringing criminals to justice. They share scans too, so once on scans you they all know, and they don't usually go straight for you all at once, but if you've been in any nav, or res site for any length of time well the sys authority tends to build up. So yeah you're going to get hammered fast. Great news for you, it gets worse in a CZ.

All I see is another post not wanting to pay for crimes again, wishing for the days of yore where you could just ignore all your crimes forever, you know the logical times. I mean how dare you commit a crime somewhere and the police react.

I've yet to see this get wanted for killing wanted ships. And I've been in a nav beacon a few times testing load outs on my new skimmer financed corvette. I hadn't had my crew member so idk if this is more related to slf crews or what. But I was killing everything I found wanted. Reg scan, then pop lasers while KWS, then going full attack. Not a single bounty gained there in quite a bit of killing.

 

[Wizz15]

But I was killing everything I found wanted. Reg scan, then pop lasers while KWS, then going full attack. Not a single bounty gained there in quite a bit of killing.

This is how I do it as well, and a few times I've been bitten by accidental fire. Most times it's my own obvious fault, however yesterday I was also attacking an already wanted NPC and had him target locked, however I suddenly got fined for assaulting another NPC while none was in sight.

Immediate wanted status and blasted to bits (I was already surrounded by Security Services ships, however not wanted myself). I would have to look at the logs to see what actually happened, because I couldn't explain a sudden wanted status for assaulting a ship that was not in my view and I did not have targeted (I only have gimballed weapons). Very strange (and annoying).

EDIT: I also dont have an SLF

 

[Hevak]

This is how I do it as well, and a few times I've been bitten by accidental fire. Most times it's my own obvious fault, however yesterday I was also attacking an already wanted NPC and had him target locked, however I suddenly got fined for assaulting another NPC while none was in sight.

Immediate wanted status and blasted to bits (I was already surrounded by Security Services ships, however not wanted myself). I would have to look at the logs to see what actually happened, because I couldn't explain a sudden wanted status for assaulting a ship that was not in my view and I did not have targeted (I only have gimballed weapons). Very strange (and annoying).

EDIT: I also dont have an SLF

Was there an slf with the npc you were fighting? I've heard thoughts it's that which is causing it. Either your own slf, which you didn't have, making stray shots, or even you slf thinking it's clean maybe. Or else I've seen where it's the npc has an slf, and it's thought that hitting the npc slf is the problem. I'm also wondering if it's server issues? I mean lately the mission boards, and servers altogether have seemed a bit laggy?

And yes whatever bug is causing this is annoying, and if/when as soon as I get hit im going to send in a bug report with logs to hopefully help get it sorted. I just haven't seen it yet. Hope everyone who has is reporting this.

But when it's not bugs causing it, the slightest infraction still carry roughly the same punishment as before. Before when you did nick a clean ship with fire, you had to leave to one or two systems over for 8 mins then fly back to where you were. Roughly about 10 mins to get back to what you did waiting out that 8 mins.

what I experienced with a ramming fine, is it takes maybe 10 mins if you know where the IF is local to you if you have to use one. Could be less or more depending where you have to fly. For the Fine I just went back in and paid. So really the penalty is either actually less or maybe slightly more now. Except for actually having to pay the credits now. And I am a CMDR who plays clean.

But most complaints on this aren't about being hit with a bug. Most are just I don't want to have to deal with my crime, and really minor infractions are about the same time penalty they were before, and in many cases you can get back to what you were doing before much sooner.

An IF should be in every low sec and anarchy system. So wherever people set up shop, just look for a low sec, anarchy sys nearby, preferably with completely different factions, then go to town on npcs or whatever. You know where you need to go and it should be quick to get back to what you're doing. A low sec or anarchy is almost always 1 or 2 jumps away with most ships.

As for the op, except for the possible bug, it's the same reaction as pre 3.0 except now you have to go pay. No one said you have to pay right away though. You just may have to not go back to whatever system you were in. But that was the same reaction before for an assault.

 

[IntX]

All the police zoom in on me and ignore the ships with CR100k+ wanted statuses, for a measly CR200 infraction?

Another consideration is that most if not all of the other "CR100k+" wanted ships are NPCs. From a game design (cannot use reality or real world logic in all aspects of a game), they exist mainly for you. You are the focus of the game, not the "wanted" NPCs. As a game designer, I would rather have the police prioritize you over the NPC. Or maybe Frontier has their agro system calculate you in a way that the police thought "he is a quick and easy target, lets kill him and then work over the 100k target".

 

[Ouberos]

The people that have accepted being criminals and learned to play around that choice are better at dealing with it, yes. Many of us have been living as criminals in this game for quite a while, and learned how to operate despite that. The difference that's making people angry now is that the day to day criminal activity people got used to is being cracked down on, and requiring them to think about their actions.

Actually what they are complaining about is the disproportionate responses to minor infractions. See this thread for details. But don't let reality mess with your version of events. You sound like an expert on the criminal aspects of gameplay in Elite. What's your in game name?

 

[Hevak]

Actually what they are complaining about is the disproportionate responses to minor infractions. See this thread for details. But don't let reality mess with your version of events. You sound like an expert on the criminal aspects of gameplay in Elite. What's your in game name?

What is disproportionate ? You got the same exact response for friendly fire in ED before 3.0, except then you ran to another system for 8 mins and never ever paid off your stuff.

Now you fly to another system to station and pay your fine, probably restock maybe repair, then fly back. Likely in under 10 mins if you have even the slightest amount of thinking capacity at all.

No it's just people not wanting any penalty they have to deal with. No one wants to have to think anymore in the world.

 

[Clifra Jones]

I'm playing "clean" commander too. I was on a trade run with my T-9 when I got interdicted by wanted npc Viper mk4. I carry minelaunchers just for fun for these kind of encounters, and decided to lay out a proper sea of mines behind me. Police arrived few moments later to help me, but poor thing collided with my mines. So now I was wanted, for protecting my self

So I went to nearby low sec. system and visited local IF, clean again. While it was no big deal, now I think twice if I should engage small ships like this just for fun... So in a way, it feels its not fair, but then again, it was not really big annoyance. Im still happy with the feeling of threat if I actually decide to do something illegal.

Even though he interdicted you he is not registered as wanted until you scan him. His ship reports an attack on his "clean" ship. Sure the cops should scan him and see "he" is the bad guy but it don't work that way.

 

[Hevak]

Even though he interdicted you he is not registered as wanted until you scan him. His ship reports an attack on his "clean" ship. Sure the cops should scan him and see "he" is the bad guy but it don't work that way.

So in other words, make sure you either scan or see wanted on your hud for the ship in question, If you do and you get any penalty for only hitting the wanted ship the. Report it? Otherwise deal with the time when you do the crime lol.

Also Missles do splash damage right? Do mines too? He may have had a cop hit with splash, heck from the message you quoted I can't tell if he is say he left mines laying around an a cop ran in to it, or the npc lol.

All in all seem like that was a case of being careless with mines. May be a bug, and if so report it. Or bring this whole thing up and some of the other concerns people have beyond not wanting penalties In the suggestion forum where they might take reports in to consideration and make changes. Like Sandro asked people to do.

 

[Stormrider321]

Be thankful you aren't getting notoriety from shooting a wanted pirate ship... Like I just did.