Do we really need another PvE Centric MMOG?

Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
You guys shouldn't be so quick to bash OP just because he cries PvP.

<snip>

TLDR:

The game has PvP as a choice within the overarching gameplay mechanic of Combat. Combat is one facet amongst many. This isn't due to purely aesthetic reasons but a consequence of many factors.

Not "Bash", disagree with surely?

Corollary: Everything within the game design is interwoven.

As for player generated content, my understanding is the driver behind the game will be the "background simulation." We as players can influence the development and expansion of the galaxy, but we don't control it. Which makes sense when you look at the "play area". There will never be enough players to have the same level of impact that they do in the walled garden that is New Eden.

My read of the published information is that FDev aren't ready to make the same mistake CCP did and hand over the keys the castle just yet. And I understand what I consider to be a mistake, others may well not. But the apparent Nulsec stagnation of "Mega" Guilds is in my opinion detrimental to the gameplay EvE overall, but also the individual players.

The design of the game, the instancing mechanics all lend themselves to small gang PvP, Large scale battles with hundreds of players and thousands of "characters" staring at a screen that moves one tenth the speed of reality aren't feasible. That's why I believe FD are better concentrating their resources on what is feasible rather than trying to ram the large round peg of mega guilds and player control/domination into the small square hole of instancing. In short, large Guilds designed to project the power and influence required to catastrophically change the balance of power are untenable with the current technical design of ED. (Opinion). Much better to use the size of the galaxy as a stark counterpoint to the insignificance of the individual and small gangs within it.

The current game design of groups/Wings gives the social aspects of guilds with people you can actually interact with in the game, not people you can interact with on an external forum, but never realistically see in the galaxy due to the vagaries of the internet.

The wish to import former "power and glory" from one game to the next is an understandable human desire. I just believe the two games are too different in scope, scale implementation and limitations for this to be possible, even if it was desirable for the majority of players.

Likewise the desire for ED to be at it's core a PvP game would require fundamental changes to the whole IP that is Elite you haven't thrown the baby out with the bathwater, you've thrown out the Baby, the Bath, the water, the taps to deliver the water and everything back to the whole interconnected weather system that causes it to rain in the first place.
 
Likewise the desire for ED to be at it's core a PvP game would require fundamental changes to the whole IP that is Elite you haven't thrown the baby out with the bathwater, you've thrown out the Baby, the Bath, the water, the taps to deliver the water and everything back to the whole interconnected weather system that causes it to rain in the first place.

Great line. :D
 
I feel the some of the posts within the thread simply proves why people need to start researching products before buying. The developer diary on youtube clearly explains what their vision and goals are for this game.

There are a bunch of other space-sims coming out that definitely sounds like EvE 2.0.
 
Its interesting to me to see the stereotypes thrown around whenever someone brings up the subject of PvP. Namely that PvPers are a bunch of sociopaths that just want to hurt people in real life or have some kind of pathetic life. Couldn't be further from the truth. PvPers are like any other people. There are good people and bad people that PvP, just as their are good people and bad people that PvE. Being a PvE advocate doesn't grant one a shield of goodness. I know many PvE people that are repulsive to others and feel free to do so because they know that there are no possible repercussions to their actions.

Similarly there are PvP fights that are "ganks" and over in 10 seconds. There are also other epic battles of cat and mouse, masterful use of resources, ships and personnel. In Eve Online Agony Unleashed was (and Id assume still is) able to take on much larger forces using tactics and strategy. So there are single dimensional people that only think about ship count and others that are masters at tactics and strategy. In short there is no particular stereotype of pvper.

As for elite, I am disappointed. A sandbox that ... well isn't a sandbox. A game that advertises itself as being a world for players to create, but yet won't allow the essential conflict needed to create a rich world. The promise of "auto generating content" though that just turns out to be template missions to retrieve this, kill that, and talk to some scripted NPC. To me that is the very height of complete boredom. I never went ratting in Eve, never worked asteroids except in extraordinary circumstances. I wanted to be part of something challenging and special.

But then perhaps I am old fashioned. Perhaps the real flavor of the day is sterilized treadmills that are easy in order to get that pavlovian reaction of a ding or gong or whatever it is to assure the player they have ground out the game to the next level. I look at the PvP world and see another human on the other side trying to outsmart me, outmaneuver me, outshoot me and I get excited by the challenge. The one dimensional players are easy to beat if the game allows. When they come at you with 50 ships and you have 10 but you know what 50 ships they will use and when they will come, they die fast. When you, on the other hand, outsmart that brilliant commander on the other side, escape from his trap, counter his attack, trick his fleet. Those are the things that keep me playing a game.

But clearly I have the wrong address. What a shame. Perhaps some day a company will have the guts to stop creating World of Warcraft clones with tiny revisions in control styles and battle techniques and finally, amazingly, create something new. Perhaps I will have the resources one day to build it myself.

Elite is nothing new. Flight sims are old hat, 3d spatial movement was done in Descent alla 1990s, Quests have been done to death, instanced combat has been here forever. Player cooperation in MMO style has been around roughly forever. There is nothing new here. Strip off the graphics and its the same.

Bummer

Good luck with it, and good luck collecting players and paying the bills and capital costs in a market that is already massively over saturated.
 
I feel the some of the posts within the thread simply proves why people need to start researching products before buying. The developer diary on youtube clearly explains what their vision and goals are for this game.

There are a bunch of other space-sims coming out that definitely sounds like EvE 2.0.
Nah, it's much easier to simply buy into each new product and then complain it isn't what you thought it would be... our whole economy is based on the laziness and entitlement of people. ;)

@rell: ED is not advertising a "world for players to create", it's a world in which players can do whatever they want, WITHIN the rules of the game... forcing ones personal game style on others is not part of those rules... if anything, ED is a far more "realistic" sandbox then most others out there, because it doesn't put the player into a position of supreme power. The market is flooded with games that are basically just cheap "power fantasies", and people expect that... if anything, the market is saturated with games like that. ED is more complex like that, attempting to create a believable, consistent simulation.

If you are disappointed by that, that's a pity, but the game wasn't created for you...
 
Last edited:
I'd disagree that PVE is tougher on developers. PvP rapidly becomes a never ending quest for that most illusive and unattainable of things - balance.

Any change, no matter how slight is endlessly analysed and critiqued, by a fan base looking for any advantage - no matter how slight. Any sense of imbalance leads to endless threads full of a sense of injustice from those who have suffered from the change, with counter arguments from those who gain. Then following the next change the roles are reversed. More and more developer, and forum support time disappears down a black hole, attempting to fill an endless pit.

New content, interesting game mechanics are sacrificed on the illusionary altar of fair game play, everything not deemed relevant to enhancing "the Pew Pew," is dismissed.

ED's play area is to all intents and purpose, infinite. One of the major conflict enablers for large scale player to player conflict is not present. To drive conflict there would have to be a series of walls put in place which is the complete antithesis of the core game. While some area's, a "tiny percentage" will be walled off for future content, the remainder remains open to give the player base freedom to explore.

The chosen method of networking lends itself more to small gang play, with its p2p instancing and so on.

The dream of importing a clan, lock, stock and barrel from one game to the next. Bringing with it an existing reputation and all the advantages that bestows is just impractical as far as ED is concerned. ED is a different game, it has different mechanics, both technical and gameplay focused. Much better to build an alliance/wing with people who can actually see each other and instance together in game, than try to support an external clan, with member A in Alaska, member B in Melbourne and poor old member C sat at the end of his exchange on the modern day version of 48k dial up.

I believe a lot of thought has gone into the game, it has limitations, but the game has been designed to take into account these limits, there are reasons for why things are the way they are.

Excellent! Could not let that post past without a QFT. Well said!
:)
 
Its interesting to me to see the stereotypes thrown around whenever someone brings up the subject of PvP. Namely that PvPers are a bunch of sociopaths that just want to hurt people in real life or have some kind of pathetic life. Couldn't be further from the truth. PvPers are like any other people. There are good people and bad people that PvP, just as their are good people and bad people that PvE. Being a PvE advocate doesn't grant one a shield of goodness. I know many PvE people that are repulsive to others and feel free to do so because they know that there are no possible repercussions to their actions.

Similarly there are PvP fights that are "ganks" and over in 10 seconds. There are also other epic battles of cat and mouse, masterful use of resources, ships and personnel. In Eve Online Agony Unleashed was (and Id assume still is) able to take on much larger forces using tactics and strategy. So there are single dimensional people that only think about ship count and others that are masters at tactics and strategy. In short there is no particular stereotype of pvper.

As for elite, I am disappointed. A sandbox that ... well isn't a sandbox. A game that advertises itself as being a world for players to create, but yet won't allow the essential conflict needed to create a rich world. The promise of "auto generating content" though that just turns out to be template missions to retrieve this, kill that, and talk to some scripted NPC. To me that is the very height of complete boredom. I never went ratting in Eve, never worked asteroids except in extraordinary circumstances. I wanted to be part of something challenging and special.

But then perhaps I am old fashioned. Perhaps the real flavor of the day is sterilized treadmills that are easy in order to get that pavlovian reaction of a ding or gong or whatever it is to assure the player they have ground out the game to the next level. I look at the PvP world and see another human on the other side trying to outsmart me, outmaneuver me, outshoot me and I get excited by the challenge. The one dimensional players are easy to beat if the game allows. When they come at you with 50 ships and you have 10 but you know what 50 ships they will use and when they will come, they die fast. When you, on the other hand, outsmart that brilliant commander on the other side, escape from his trap, counter his attack, trick his fleet. Those are the things that keep me playing a game.

But clearly I have the wrong address. What a shame. Perhaps some day a company will have the guts to stop creating World of Warcraft clones with tiny revisions in control styles and battle techniques and finally, amazingly, create something new. Perhaps I will have the resources one day to build it myself.

Elite is nothing new. Flight sims are old hat, 3d spatial movement was done in Descent alla 1990s, Quests have been done to death, instanced combat has been here forever. Player cooperation in MMO style has been around roughly forever. There is nothing new here. Strip off the graphics and its the same.

Bummer

Good luck with it, and good luck collecting players and paying the bills and capital costs in a market that is already massively over saturated.

Your only two posts are essentially long insults to anyone that enjoys what this game offers.

So leave.

Good luck with finding your dream game now that even the makers of Eve also apparently don't agree with what you want.
 
Last edited:
Its interesting to me to see the stereotypes thrown around whenever someone brings up the subject of PvP. Namely that PvPers are a bunch of sociopaths that just want to hurt people in real life or have some kind of pathetic life. Couldn't be further from the truth. PvPers are like any other people. There are good people and bad people that PvP, just as their are good people and bad people that PvE. Being a PvE advocate doesn't grant one a shield of goodness. I know many PvE people that are repulsive to others and feel free to do so because they know that there are no possible repercussions to their actions.

43 posts and yours is the first that brings up the meme of PvE/PvP stereotypes. Certainly no one is throwing it around in the dramatic fashion you state.
 
Player interaction will be constrained, as human interaction is constrained in the real world, through law and punishment... I don't quite understand where the problem is there?
Sorry, by 'constrained', I meant things like:
  • Players being invulnerable to other players,
  • Players being able to instantly switch to solo from group anywhere, any time
  • Blocking players from instances

Constraints like bounties, law enforcement actions etc are all perfectly fine and part of the game.

I'm not talking about the people that want to play solo, they can do so anyhow, but my guess would be that most players will start to play in open mode, and will stay there if the experience is desirable.

Agreed, the experience of 'open' must be fun. It saddens me bow many people declare "I'm going to ply solo only, because.... griefers" based on playing the Beta where the 'constraints' are only half implemented
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Elite Dangerous has the capability of doing something new or being yet another PvE MMOG. Instead of trying to tap a saturated market, it could tap a market of disaffected players who have roamed looking for the real sandbox.

The market for a sequel to Elite is far from saturated - the last release was in the 1990s.

If Elite Dangerous is just another PvE MMOG I won't be interested. Sure I am not the only one in the world but people enter space and its vastness to be challenged, not to collect another 10 beetle carapaces or mine for another 10kg of titanium ore. People are looking for the sandbox, not the rewash. There are thousands like me, craving the sandbox.

If you mean that it has the capability to become an EvE clone with cockpits then - respectfully, while that may appeal to you - no thank you.
 
...probably worth locking.

Way ahead of you... for those that resorted to insults - unimpressed. If it weren't for some not so subtle ninja edits there would've been warnings dished out.

Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with someones point of view, personal insults are not the way to go. At least the OP made the effort to be well presented and reasonable.

Thread has done its dash - Closed.
 
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom