Does anyone actually enjoy engineering?

[Stealthie]

Maybe you're one of the "top 5-10% players." Sounds like a complement to me. I could handle a HAZRES in my BattleConda pre 3.3 (haven't tried since), but even before the update, I found CZs to be very challenging. Remember, people in this forum already make up 5-10% of the player base, so it's not unthinkable that many of you also make up 5-10% of the best players.

Y'all just need to leave some "easy" content in the game for more casuals like myself

It's nice of you to say so but it's not true.

My point, really, was just that I probably wouldn't find it so easy without engineering and I wonder if FDev designed the game without considering engineering as much as they should have.

I mean, without engineering, we'd probably all (or most of us, at least) need to fly bigger, stronger, more expensive, less versatile, ships to do the stuff we do, we'd take more damage and we'd eat more rebuys.
That'd actually do a lot to extend the progression of the game, diversify the types of ships we build and add more jeopardy to the decisions we make.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

In my opinion, Farseer is the huge QoL upgrade. Almost all the others are marginal improvements or only really for combat.

I'm actually looking forward to the trip back to Maia to gather meta-alloys, never done it but I've seen videos. Then trek back to see Farseer to unlock. Not sure which ship I should take, the Cobra MKIII, Dolphin, Type-6 or buy an AspX like everyone has been telling me. I would guess my first upgrade plan should be an FSD, the AspX is the only one that would use a size 5 FSD. Maybe I should get used to the process with one of my 4A FSD equipped ships.

 

[D3rv1sh]

Its just a video game efficiency doesnt matter, its all about fun.

Relogging is an explot/cheating you shouldn't do it.

Based on all the GAH GRIND posts coming from people choosing to grind they are quite obviously doing it wrong as they keep on saying they are not enjoying it.

My approach is self evidently far better than yours.

This post of yours show exactly your problem. Your narrow minded 'Stigbobbies' world. Some people have fun playing the game being efficient. Your approach better than mine? That statement belongs in 'Stigbobbies' world. Not the outside world. Still don't get it do you? Never mind don't answer that. Nothing good will come from it. Re-logging is cheating/exploiting? Based on who's opinion? Yours? If Frontier considered this to be a severe negative aspect of the game then they would have changed it by now. They didn't remove it at all. In fact they built on top of it and gave people settlements to grind for materials. Which revolve around driving your SRV, scooping up the mats and re-log to repeat. Frontier facilitated the whole concept of the grind revolving farming mats, re-log and rinse and repeat. You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Stealthie]

Re-logging is cheating/exploiting? Based on who's opinion? Yours? If Frontier considered this to be a severe negative aspect of the game then they would have changed it by now. They didn't remove it at all. In fact they built on top of it and gave people settlements to grind for materials. Which revolve around driving your SRV, scooping up the mats and re-log to repeat. Frontier facilitated the whole concept of the grind revolving farming mats, re-log and rinse and repeat. You have no idea what you're talking about.

FWIW, it used to be possible to scan the comm's beacon at places like Dav's Hope once and that'd be your lot for something like 2 weeks.
Fdev changed that so you could scan it every time you logged into the game.

If they were intent on minimising the benefit of re-logging they could have just left the comm's beacons with the 2-week reset but they deliberately changed it so you can get more stuff from it.
That would seem to be a tacit endorsement of re-logging for mat's, at least.

 

[Stigbob]

"The best way to do this thing is to not do it".

[wacky]

Do it by all means. Just not all at once accross a fleet to the maximum rating whilst complaining its grindy and objecting to people saying chill out a bit.

 

[Stigbob]

This post of yours show exactly your problem. Your narrow minded 'Stigbobbies' world. Some people have fun playing the game being efficient. Your approach better than mine? That statement belongs in 'Stigbobbies' world. Not the outside world. Still don't get it do you? Never mind don't answer that. Nothing good will come from it. Re-logging is cheating/exploiting? Based on who's opinion? Yours? If Frontier considered this to be a severe negative aspect of the game then they would have changed it by now. They didn't remove it at all. In fact they built on top of it and gave people settlements to grind for materials. Which revolve around driving your SRV, scooping up the mats and re-log to repeat. Frontier facilitated the whole concept of the grind revolving farming mats, re-log and rinse and repeat. You have no idea what you're talking about.

No problems at my end I enjoy the game.

The efficiency players are not enjoying themselves though, we know this they keep saying so. Why would I use their approach as anything other than a warning of what not to do.

Relogging is cheating, its also boring we know this because the people who do it moan about being bored.

 

[D3rv1sh]

No problems at my end I enjoy the game.

The efficiency players are not enjoying themselves though, we know this they keep saying so. Why would I use their approach as anything other than a warning of what not to do.

Relogging is cheating, its also boring we know this because the people who do it moan about being bored.

Just because I don't like how the grind is implemented means I'm not enjoying the game. Man o man, where do I begin... Just another 'Stigbobbies' world statement. Again showing how narrow minded your thought process is. Since re-logging is cheating in your book, and therefore you don't do it. Then why exactly are you playing a game developed by a company who, judging on what you've said about cheating, actually stimulates cheating by revolving part of the grind around it?

 

[amadeus1171]

It's a necessary evil, like taking a dump.

 

[777Driver]

Well this topic made go and upgrade the G5 shields on my Open play smuggling Phantom. Needed some arsenic & some yttrium for another upgrade. Found a planet two jumps from Diaguandri, 6ls from the star, surface scanned the planet and found plenty of Geological features, landed and filled up on materials.. All with a Beautiful view in the background in VR.

Not quite sure how anyone could call this a grind... Maybe if I stayed up for the next 24 hours trying to finish the ship [knocked out] Think I'll just chill and call it a successful night

 

[D3rv1sh]

Well this topic made go and upgrade the G5 shields on my Open play smuggling Phantom. Needed some arsenic & some yttrium for another upgrade. Found a planet two jumps from Diaguandri, 6ls from the star, surface scanned the planet and found plenty of Geological features, landed and filled up on materials.. All with a Beautiful view in the background in VR.

Not quite sure how anyone could call this a grind... Maybe if I stayed up for the next 24 hours trying to finish the ship [knocked out] Think I'll just chill and call it a successful night

That's what I'm doing right now. This part does not revolve around re-logging to get materials. There are plenty of geological locations to visit that have the mats. Therefore no re-logging is necessary. And like you said, the view can be gorgeous. I actually like this part. Discovering a system and mapping it do so some prospecting. Some casual exploring and farm some mats.

 

[Ethaidan]

This post of yours show exactly your problem. Your narrow minded 'Stigbobbies' world. Some people have fun playing the game being efficient. Your approach better than mine? That statement belongs in 'Stigbobbies' world. Not the outside world. Still don't get it do you? Never mind don't answer that. Nothing good will come from it. Re-logging is cheating/exploiting? Based on who's opinion? Yours? If Frontier considered this to be a severe negative aspect of the game then they would have changed it by now. They didn't remove it at all. In fact they built on top of it and gave people settlements to grind for materials. Which revolve around driving your SRV, scooping up the mats and re-log to repeat. Frontier facilitated the whole concept of the grind revolving farming mats, re-log and rinse and repeat. You have no idea what you're talking about.

As much as I don't want to, in the truest spirit, I've got agree with Bob (No offense Bob, I just don't like to agree with people. Out of principle.). His approach is objectively better. Sure, you want to min/max your Engineering efficiency. Great, each to there own. The simple fact is, engineering in ED (pre3.0 & post3.0) was quite evidently not designed to either encourage or accomodate this approach while maintaining a healthy level of sanity. While that obviously does not sit well with some people, that is the way ED engineering (and other aspects of ED) was conceived, designed and implemented. Twice. Over a period of years.

The same can be said of other aspects of ED - ranks, ship progression, Guardian technology, managing the BGS, manipulating Power Play - everything worth doing right requires a significant investment of playing time and focused effort. That's just what ED is. So, the best approach to a game like this is to engage with the different aspects of the game in whatever way best maximises your fun. Because that's what games are for - killing time, relaxing, having fun. It sounds like Bob's approach is fun for Bob, but your approach is not fun for you. Sound's like Bob's approach is better. Not better than mine though, mine's better than Bob's.

 

[D3rv1sh]

As much as I don't want to, in the truest spirit, I've got agree with Bob (No offense Bob, I just don't like to agree with people. Out of principle.). His approach is objectively better. Sure, you want to min/max your Engineering efficiency. Great, each to there own. The simple fact is, engineering in ED (pre3.0 & post3.0) was quite evidently not designed to either encourage or accomodate this approach while maintaining a healthy level of sanity. While that obviously does not sit well with some people, that is the way ED engineering (and other aspects of ED) was conceived, designed and implemented. Twice. Over a period of years.

The same can be said of other aspects of ED - ranks, ship progression, Guardian technology, managing the BGS, manipulating Power Play - everything worth doing right requires a significant investment of playing time and focused effort. That's just what ED is. So, the best approach to a game like this is to engage with the different aspects of the game in whatever way best maximises your fun. Because that's what games are for - killing time, relaxing, having fun. It sounds like Bob's approach is fun for Bob, but your approach is not fun for you. Sound's like Bob's approach is better. Not better than mine though, mine's better than Bob's.

And I could claim mine's better than yours. Quite pointless and besides the point. Goals in the game are different per person. The road towards achieving those goals ditto. Different play style. According to you and Mr. Bob here, people complaining about the implementation of the grind that fits in their play style are not entitled to do so and should calm down and take a different approach. As much as I don't want to, but I have to say that you're just as shortsighted as Mr. Bob here. I don't like having to re-log to achieve a goal within a time frame. I'd rather have it be removed and replaced with an alternative that fits the play style of mine and people alike using it currently. Your and Mr. Bob's solution is to ignore it as if the problem isn't there. Well Mr. Bob will be glad to know he's not alone.

 

[CMDR Pugwash]

And I could claim mine's better than yours. Quite pointless and besides the point. Goals in the game are different per person. The road towards achieving those goals ditto. Different play style. According to you and Mr. Bob here, people complaining about the implementation of the grind that fits in their play style are not entitled to do so and should calm down and take a different approach. As much as I don't want to, but I have to say that you're just as shortsighted as Mr. Bob here. I don't like having to re-log to achieve a goal within a time frame. I'd rather have it be removed and replaced with an alternative that fits the play style of mine and people alike using it currently. Your and Mr. Bob's solution is to ignore it as if the problem isn't there. Well Mr. Bob will be glad to know he's not alone.

This is pretty much how I feel. I'm absolutely fine with people enjoying Engineers, totally tickity-boo. I wish they could accept that some of us don't and were perfectly happy before they turned up. Is that too much to ask? Perhaps it is in this post-truth world we live in now.

 

[eqinox]

Engineers, when introduced, was awful with ridiculous requirements (especially cargo), and completely random results. Searching for materials or data was horrible, and external tools were mandatory for keeping track of requirements and progress towards each grade and rank. Engineers totally killed PvP for me by throwing balance out of the window. It also killed experimenting with loadouts; engineering multiple modules is beyond tedious.

While to some part engineering may be optional, it is necessary for PvE combat at least for me as a poor casual pilot with little skill; NPCs have become more difficult since 2.1. Elite doesn't really know how to properly balance itself for different skill levels, different levels of progress or different level ships.

I remember when Horizons was announced we were promised "loot and crafting", but I can't think of any game where it was implemented poorly enough to push me to hate the game and stop playing it: "Love Elite, but hate the game". The current implementation has been tweaked and fixed enough to be tolerable, I don't hate it, but the process is still not rewarding or fun.

 

[Ethaidan]

And I could claim mine's better than yours. Quite pointless and besides the point. Goals in the game are different per person. The road towards achieving those goals ditto. Different play style. According to you and Mr. Bob here, people complaining about the implementation of the grind that fits in their play style are not entitled to do so and should calm down and take a different approach. As much as I don't want to, but I have to say that you're just as shortsighted as Mr. Bob here. I don't like having to re-log to achieve a goal within a time frame. I'd rather have it be removed and replaced with an alternative that fits the play style of mine and people alike using it currently. Your and Mr. Bob's solution is to ignore it as if the problem isn't there. Well Mr. Bob will be glad to know he's not alone.

Looks like someone completely missed the point. Go ahead, hate it, complain about it, rage against it, whatever floats your boat. I, and many others, acknowledge and accept that you and others are unhappy. But that doesn't mean that engineering is the problem. Sure, maybe it is for you, but that doesn't make it a problem for me, so I'm not ignoring anything. Not your unhappiness, or your problem I just don't share in your unhappiness.

 

[Strangepork]

Serious question. I don't mean 'do you enjoy having an engineered ship' or 'do you enjoy trying out different engineering modifications', I mean do you actually enjoy the process, the things that you do to get to that engineered module?

Acquiring vast amounts of materials, trading them when (inevitably) you don't have the one you want, at a massive loss, getting a series of lousy rolls that eat all your mats before you complete the mod you're aiming for?

I read posters on here stating that they've engineered whole fleets of ships in next to no time. I believe them- why wouldn't they tell the truth?- but I'm not enjoying anything like the same rate of progress. I decided to fully engineer my mission runner, an 'A' rated Python, back in November. I'd been tinkering with it for a while, I had what I thought was a huge amount of materials stockpiled and I'd unlocked a few engineers. I gave up half way through December and, in spite of having a whole week off at the end of the month, I didn't even flash Elite up. I just couldn't face it any more.

For most of the last four years I've put in a couple of hours a night, two or three times a week. Not exactly a power player, but not 'casual' either. Now I'm watching ED videos instead of playing- what kind of saddo does that? It's over a fortnight since I last played and I don't have any particular urge to change that.

Each completed mod has been a revelation. The Python is transformed. I really can't express how much of a difference the engineering makes- it's vastly more than finally installing 'A' class modules when I started the game.

But that's just hacking me off. It's painfully obvious just how pants stock ships are compared to engineered ones. I've got a whole fleet of vanilla ships that are a real struggle to just survive in. I don't mind running away every now and then, but the AI is balanced against much tougher kit than I'm flying. I can see where the 'git gud' crowd are coming from- my partly engineered Python is just melting AI opponents! But I'm about as 'gud' as I'm going to 'git', my fleet needs a ton of work and yeGodsinHeaven I'm burned out just getting one of them up to scratch!

I'd love to try out some of the newer ships, but I know that stock, even 'A' rated, they'll be easy pickings for dumb as a brick AI with ridiculously strong weapons and shields. It's not about skill, or lack thereof, the game's set-up is suffering from power creep. I wouldn't object to that, if engineering to the new standard wasn't such a massive pain in the posterior for me.

Am I looking at this all wrong? Is engineering actually a fun activity that I'm just not 'getting'? [uhh]

For the most part yes, but that's because generally I gather the resources before I ever need them, next I live near Jacksons Lighthouse and all but three engineers are just two jumps away, lastly I have 200 previously engineered modules stored and can often fully engineer a new ship in 3 hours.

 

[Daynen]

-Engineering is unnecessarily tedious for no logical reason other then to ensure it takes a lot of our time. (something something respect our players' time something something?)
-Pinning blueprints is ridiculously limiting AND we can't get experimentals without going to the engineer.
-The 6 to 1 ratio of material trading is excruciating. Draconian even. That's not a word I use that way very often.
-Several engineers are completely redundant for 95% of players but are stepping stones to the things 95% of players actually want (Marco Qwent must DIE!)
-Many of the engineers offer blueprints completely disconnected from the activities required to unlock them (looking at YOU, Selene!)
-Lots of the "higher tier" engineers actually offer LOWER grade blueprints than some of the initially unlocked ones (no point in going anywhere but Felicity for FSD's because many others don't have G5.)
-Experimental effects are universal among applicable engineers, yet the regular graded blueprints are limited by engineer.
-we can't buy or replicate experimentals and blueprints without engineer permissions, but stations sure can replace them when we blow them up!

The entire system reeks of a lack of human design sensibilities and internal consistency to me. It's really sad because the benefits offered are staggering. The first time your G5 dirty drag eagle travels almost 10km from a dead stop in one boost you'll have a hard time looking back, but dear GOD is it infuriating to get there--​and it doesn't need to be that way.

EDIT: and NO ONE has G4 thrusters. It's G3 or straight to G5 with Palin only. WHY.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

This argument about not minmaxing to play ED coming from guys who made most of their creds ingame with EDDB on a second screen and couldnt find their A grade FSD without Inara is just in ridiculous.

 

[Jukelo]

This argument about not minmaxing to play ED coming from guys who made most of their creds ingame with EDDB on a second screen and couldnt find their A grade FSD without Inara is just in ridiculous.

I'll admit I use Coriolis. That's about it. And I wish Frontier would take a more adversarial stance towards third party tools as they create more problems for the game than they solve.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Let me start by saying I'm a huge Formula 1 fan.
I'm fine the idea of spending a heap of money to save 50g weight or spending weeks making some component which improves the aerodynamics slightly etc.
I love the relentless, obsessive, single-minded nature of the engineering in the sport.

I mention that because it reflects the same attitude I have toward engineering in ED.
If I've fitted, say, some C5 module in a C6 slot and then I realise I can fit a couple of C4 modules to do the same job, thus allowing me to fit a more optimised module in the C6 slot, I'm quite happy to re-engineer a heap of parts on my ship to achieve some advantage.
In fact, I'm currently in the middle of my third revision of the PDist's on a bunch of my ships.
I started off fitting the biggest A-rated PDist simply cos they were pretty cheap.
Then I realised I could save weight and gain jump-range by under-sizing them so I fitted a lower class PDist instead.
Now I've realised a bigger D-rated PDist is often lighter and provides more juice than a comparable A-rated one so I'm swapping them again.

Do I enjoy engineering?
No.
It sucks big fat donkey balls and the thought of it genuinely makes me nauseous.

That's why I spend days playing with Coriolis.io before I even buy a module.
If there was a way to interface Coriolis with the game so it automatically deducted mat's and applied mod's I'd never visit an engineer again.
I hate the entire process, even though I love the results.

Perfect summation of what engineering SHOULD have been - basically an ED version of the ship fitting tool we have in Eve Online.

Yes yes StuartGT "we don't want ED to be like Eve Online" well FDev should have thought of that when they implemented such a convoluted and complicated system, that requires dozens and dozens of hours, often doing activities people don't like just to get the materials to do stuff with a semi unknown outcome.

If Coriolis.io didn't exist then engineering would be having so much bile and scorn poured on it that it would be the #1 reason why so many players had left the game in disgust.

FDev should be paying coriolis.io royalties.