Does anyone actually enjoy engineering?

[Bob Lighthouse]

Well done on the effort mate, but like I put in the OP, in two months, with a year's supply of mats, I got most of the way to engineering just one ship. I don't have the time or the will to grind-it's a leisure activity, a game, for goodness sake! If it starts to feel like work I might as well just sign up for some overtime... [rolleyes]

I suspect you were not nearly as efficient as you could have been, which was the point of my example.
Likely, you were retracing steps and not acquiring mats in the most efficient ways.

 

[DDastardly00]

I like the actual engineering part, choosing what modification goes on what module with what experimental effect, that part is fun because tinkering with ships is fun. The part I loathe is gathering the mats for the tinkering in the SRV, as discussed in my thread about that subject. I tried Geological sites over the weekend and while that does make it slightly better, it can also be very clunky. For example, I landed in a canyon to gather mats and when I recalled my ship, it refused to land inside the canyon and instead landed on either side of it which left me with no way to get up to my ship. I nearly had to blow up the SRV but since I'm stubborn, I refused and instead used a combo of thrusters and handbrake to rock crawl my way up the side of the canyon. That is what I mean by clunky, it took 40 minutes of pure frustrating gameplay to achieve this.

 

[Cervantes01]

To me engineering is just a time sink, bean counting busy work to keep you occupied on your non existent 'personal journey,' it's time gating nothing more.

 

[Bill Clement]

I suspect you were not nearly as efficient as you could have been, which was the point of my example.
Likely, you were retracing steps and not acquiring mats in the most efficient ways.

Clearly. The trouble with 'the most efficient ways' is that it's a constantly moving target that relies on gaming the game. Every second patch sees a new 'most efficient' method appear. Board flipping, consulting one or more popular youtuber's 'how to' guides, visiting player generated spreadsheets that may or may not be up to date, using out of game assets like INARA or EDDB or even- specifically carrying out an activity FD deem to be prohibited- combat logging to respawn the good stuff!

It's an atrocious state of affairs, it's a huge amount of wasted time and effort which is about as far from a fun distraction as you can get.

'Blaze your own trail' my Asp!

 

[Jack Schitt]

I don't mind it, especially v2.0, but I do wish the fiction behind what we're doing made more sense. Salvaging components from destroyed ships sort of makes sense, even if the names of the parts are weirdly generic, but scavenging for iron meteorites or scanning computer terminals for random bits of code is ridiculous. Iron should be abundant, and firmware from a crashed satellite should not be of use in modifying any hardware other than another satellite. I can't take the hacked firmware from my router and install it in my car's ECU to make it go faster.

(It's possible to interpret the transaction as, "Bring me these things for my stockroom, and in exchange I'll modify your ship with other things from my stockroom," but that's not what the UI says).

It would make more sense to me if we ran custom missions for the Engineers, to obtain particular components either for our own upgrades or in exchange for services.

• One of my clients lost a ship in combat and had to eject. Fly to {system}, find a wrecked Anaconda and salvage its modfied {module}.
• Meet my contact at {station} and retrieve 30 units of stolen prototype electronics.
• There's a fast ship called the {shipname} that's rumoured to have a modified jump drive; fly to {system} and hack the {shipname}'s computer so I can reverse engineer the management software.

That sort of thing. What we have at the moment is clearly a generic MMO crafting template in which magic beans, elfin power crystals and wizard's spell incantations have been replaced by chemical elements and generically-named components and firmwares. It works, just, but it clashes with the harder SF elements of Elite lore. The Elite universe deserves something better. Something more appropriate. Alas I fear we're stuck with what we've got.

 

[lomac]

I'd love to try out some of the newer ships, but I know that stock, even 'A' rated, they'll be easy pickings for dumb as a brick AI with ridiculously strong weapons and shields. It's not about skill, or lack thereof, the game's set-up is suffering from power creep. I wouldn't object to that, if engineering to the new standard wasn't such a massive pain in the posterior for me.

Am I looking at this all wrong? Is engineering actually a fun activity that I'm just not 'getting'? [uhh]

You are 100% spot on. I quit the game because of engineers, progression just stopped. I hate driving the stupid rover around, worst handling piece of junk ever created. Shooting at rocks? Are you kidding me? That's not why I bought a space sim. To gamble and shoot at rocks on the ground in a crapbuggy.

People complain about WoW being a slot machine. They haven't seen engineers in this game.

I came back to play w/my kids, but the wing missions are impossible for newbs. Deliver 5000 units of X to Y? In 2 sidewinders, a vulture, and my anaconda? Have you lost your mind? Or kill pirate king joe who's elite when you're 30% dangerous in a conda, 2 sideys, and a vulture, all un-engineered? We tried. He had friends. Didn't go so well. Well, that's pretty much all the wing missions. Oh - murder 50 of these guys, if you can find them before the time runs out or you lose interest.

It's like they don't think about how people like to play with friends and family. Why can't we just share normal missions and divide the reward by the # of players?

So all we can do together is bounty hunting.

There really is no point in buying new ships since you can't engineer them w/out hours and hours of drudgery shooting rocks on the ground. I have about a billion+ net worth, and 465 million cash, and even with these new ships that have been released since I left the game ages ago, I have zero interest in trying them out because of engineers. My python and fer de lance sit and rust because of engineers. All I do is drive this bus around, and once in a while pay 18mil rebuy when I run into an engineered AI ship.

 

[Schmack]

I spend most of my time engineering or doing support roles for engineering. There's not much else to do. The BGS for me is like trying to move the Rocky mountains one pebble at a time.

As for power creep, the game is funneling players toward multiplayer by creating the need to play in a wing. I never have problems with NPCs because I am ahead of the curve on engineering but also because I know what fights not to pick and when I pick them anyhow (sometimes you just have to attack that convoy of anacondas escorted by vultures) I know how to run. Fortunately they have short memories.

 

[Schmack]

You are 100% spot on. I quit the game because of engineers, progression just stopped. I hate driving the stupid rover around, worst handling piece of junk ever created. Shooting at rocks? Are you kidding me? That's not why I bought a space sim. To gamble and shoot at rocks on the ground in a crapbuggy.

People complain about WoW being a slot machine. They haven't seen engineers in this game.

I came back to play w/my kids, but the wing missions are impossible for newbs. Deliver 5000 units of X to Y? In 2 sidewinders, a vulture, and my anaconda? Have you lost your mind? Or kill pirate king joe who's elite when you're 30% dangerous in a conda, 2 sideys, and a vulture, all un-engineered? We tried. He had friends. Didn't go so well. Well, that's pretty much all the wing missions. Oh - murder 50 of these guys, if you can find them before the time runs out or you lose interest.

It's like they don't think about how people like to play with friends and family. Why can't we just share normal missions and divide the reward by the # of players?

So all we can do together is bounty hunting.

There really is no point in buying new ships since you can't engineer them w/out hours and hours of drudgery shooting rocks on the ground. I have about a billion+ net worth, and 465 million cash, and even with these new ships that have been released since I left the game ages ago, I have zero interest in trying them out because of engineers. My python and fer de lance sit and rust because of engineers. All I do is drive this bus around, and once in a while pay 18mil rebuy when I run into an engineered AI ship.

We were dividing rewards before they had wings. Just buy a lot of expensive stuff and dump it to your wingmate. He can sell it.

 

[zebcarter]

I really like engineering and I guess most people do as well. What most don't like is gathering the materials and this can be tiresome if you do it the classical way.

However with the introduction of material traders it's no problem anymore. You just collect G5 and trade down to everything else.

Raw: Koli Discii Anaconda
Encoded: Jameson's Cobra
Manufactured: Robigo Passenger missions or Isinor pirate hunting

The only grind remaining then is Selene Jean, and she can be replaced by Petra in Colonia.

 

[Kaocraft]

I think the devs decided they have done "enough" with engineering and that it would be a waste of time and energy to improve it. I know originally the intention was to have Engineers function a little more like factions, with more variety and nuance to how you gained and lost favor with them, and maybe even act as mission givers; and I would have appreciated if they'd eventually done something like this. I don't enjoy the whole "placeholder" approach to development that has been used with Elite. Placeholders end up holding their places forever, and even when the time comes to improve a half-complete feature, things are rarely replaced/revamped outright but instead have little tweaks around the edges rather than being built into a fully thought-out system.

Engineering, and honestly the whole "loot" system of collectible trinkets surrounding it, was rotten from inception and should have been completely rethought and redone from the ground up, or else scrapped altogether and just added another tier of modules in outfitting. Instead the system was tweaked in superficial ways to streamline the system and make the whole thing seem less egregious, without addressing the underlying problem that it's not fun or interesting to run around dozens of locations trying to collect a hundred different types of tickets to feed into a prize machine.

 

[Vasea Azure]

I actually do like engineering, even in its first iteration before the overhaul. And I didn't hate gathering material ether. It was actually fun and rewarding to see how much I can improve various components of my fleet. Also I was kind of lucky with rolls and especially was able to massively boost my jump range. Thats the most important thing as I prefer to do as long jumps as possible.

 

[CoyoteXStarrk]

I enjoy the concept. The execution could use some work though.


But overall I am pleased with it. And I say that as someone who has only just begun to really use it. I only have 3 engineers unlocked lol

 

[Banger_uk]

never got into engineer, I mat one gun I think in All game hours. Personally I think most of this engineer has made elite to one sided in balancing gameplay ,

 

[Misty_Dark]

I have no issues with the concept of engineering, to be able to tinker and adjust your ship for various tasks.

Done correctly, this will lead to diversity and reason to try different things.


But here are drawbacks, as there will eventually come out these templates builds for various activities, that is based on a min/max the build.

Also the collection of materialsetc needed to do the tinkering, could offer various gameplay activities, that normally would be overlooked.


So there is great potential for much enjoyment for these kind of things. But as we have seen, there can be lots of pitsfalls, that makes this into a less fun experience.



I think the revamped engineering was an improvement over the old system, as it was less random on would it be a better one or a worse one, it would always improve...
But certain things that the old system could give, is missing form the new system, like in the old system , you could get lucky and run a class 5 shield on a Trade Cutter, that is impossible to achieve in the new system.

Gathering materials, this a mixed bag, and here we have had lots of changes to take away the worst of the bad this introduced. But there are still things that can be done to improve this. One of the bigger changes to this was the material traders, that atleast allowed you to hunt for stuff you actually could find and trade it for stuff that you needed. There have also been many changes to where and how you find stuff, and these have both been hit and miss in my opinion. Here I think the key should be diversity on tasks you can do to find different materials. Sadly, what I would like to see would in many cases require new game mechanics, so we are sort of stuck with the current fix of material traders.


One of the bigger let down I find with the implementation of engineers is that there is very few side grade options, and much more of a simple upgrade.What I mean by this, is that if we start to look at modules and weapons and what are we choosing, it should be apparent, that there in the end, we do not use most of the options available, since they are inferior to the ones we pick. This is more true for modules, compared to weapons.
This also leads to a power creep, so even if you want to try a "vanilla" ship, and the compare that one to a engineered ship, it soon will be quite clear that the engineered ship, is so much better, and we do not need go to G5 max upgrades, even G1,G2 and G3 upgrades is a huge boost. But many get stuck on the min/max rant of I must have G5 on everything, and nothing else is acceptible, and then getting mats for this sucks follow up.



TL;DR
So I do enjoy engineering, I have done lots of it, and I have several ships that is fully G5, and I have collected alot of materials etc, so I can go crazy in engineering a "new" ship. And for my play style, PvE, I can now do lots of things, that I could not do before, engineering allows my own lack of flying skill, to excel in my superior build compared to the NPC's.
I do not mind driving around a planet in my SRV for hours. but I do understand people who do not like this! I do not like the new resource sites on planets, but I know others who likes them. So we have different options, I that I like.
So being a reasonably big hoarder of stuff, just all of my ships have collector limpet controller and limpets... so I really hate ships who keeps using Point Defence to destroy my collector limpets. I do get why we use things like relog on resource site, and healies for feelies mechanics, as these are the response from players to minimize their effort todo something he find less fun, indicating that the game mechanics might be flawed for these activities.

The system have lots of potential for improvements and diversity in many areas. But I believe we are better with this than without. I have not covered PvP as I am not into that.

 

[V'larr]

I liked the game better before/without Engineering.

I'd be a fool to not make use of it, though. So I'm stuck in the same rut as OP. One day I'm sure I'll get the motivation to fly over to whatever barnacle site system it is and collect all the rare mats I'll need to not have to worry again & get to work on it once more, but...so far it ain't that day.

 

[NCFCpaul]

What I've found is that now my favourite ships are engineered/ outfitted as I like them I've been quietly gathering mats mostly without noticing.

I've recently thought to get a new FDL to try it and found I had ample of nearly everything, a trip to one material trader topped up everything I wanted.

In other words I think it now works well for me but was a bit of a grind at first. Now I'm used to fully engineered ships flying without that does feel as though something is missing

 

[DDastardly00]

I spent another 'wonderful' night farming mats in the SRV last night because I'm in dire need of replenishing and I like getting kicked in the teeth. At least it went ok, lot's of Selenium, Chromium and even some Ruthenium and Cadmium. I also went to an Anarchy system and got a few good mats destroying ships, at least that part was fun.

 

[AlaricVonDrago]

To be honest, I wish I could do more customization and expansion of my modules and ships. The game doesn't have enough "builds" in terms of tuning and tweaking.

And while the process can be a bit brutal, if you just play the game in any diligent fashion whatsoever, it's not bad. I mean, when you pop a ship, scan the mats it drops to see if you need any (I stop and pickup anything I have less than 100 of, for example).

This is not really an instant gratification kind of game. You do need to put in some time, and due diligence. Fortunately, it's all fairly simple and many have discovered it and report on it, and there's excellent tools available to make it all palatable (eddb.io, coriolis.io, inara.cz, youtubers).

So do I enjoy engineering? Well, in the sense that it makes me better than you, then yeah.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I enjoy some of the activities. I like those where i can get the stuff i need through doing stuff i would be doing anyway. For example, mining, or perhaps like now, on the Planetary Circumnavigation Expedition, i'm coming across random downed sattelites and bases with beacons and materials.

Material/data traders have been a big boon as well, if something requires doing something you don't enjoy, simply do something you do enjoy for materials/data and then trade them.

 

[Kaocraft]

If Frontier want to keep improving the Engineering system, the area ripe for the most improvement is the materials system IMHO. Right now materials don't feel like material; a physical thing with uses and meaning in the game world; they feel like prize ticket coupons in a convoluted sweepstakes game.

Pretend all the "ticket vendor" type outlets (engineers, mat traders, tech brokers) in the game don't exist yet - what justification is there for Materials, and materials gathering, to be in the game? When the materials gathering and crafting system makes sense all on it's own, and it's fun, and it feels like you are DOING something; then Engineers will become one more thing you can ALSO do with with your materials.

I don't think the Engineering system by itself is necessarily irredeemably bad. It's just that it's tied up with the materials system, which was never designed as anything other than a randomized frustrating time sink. Materials gathering provides no joy or sense of progress in its own right; it is a CHORE rather than an activity.

Build a good material system and you can tie it into all kinds of other play systems to make them more compelling. Right now it feels more like an obstruction.