Does anyone actually enjoy engineering?

[WinterKing2112]

Just because you like long draggy games, it doesn't mean that it's everyone's cup of tea.
Some people who complain aren't exactly kids either. Just regular working adults with very limited play time per day or even week,

I love ED, obviously you don't. There's the door, you can see yourself out......

 

[WinterKing2112]

Just because you like long draggy games, it doesn't mean that it's everyone's cup of tea.
Some people who complain aren't exactly kids either. Just regular working adults with very limited play time per day or even week,

....who should play something short n sweet, not something that involves a lot of doing stuff they don't like such as ED.

 

[dxm55]

....who should play something short n sweet, not something that involves a lot of doing stuff they don't like such as ED.

Unfortunately many people are starting to feel the game is draggy. Be it in travel time, or material hunting.
As evidence of the comments made in the forums, and even videos by Youtubers like OA.



Keeping the pressure up.

 

[WinterKing2112]

Its 100% hands down the sole reason I quit ED. Its taken a long time for them to correct the terrible implementation of a feature that could have been enjoyable and rich. The current iteration is bearable and the material agents are welcomed but its still half baked and lacking in depth despite its potential.

On a side note I have returned

Welcome back commander

 

[CMDR X]

I choose not to do that as I don't need G5s on everything and neither does anyone else for that matter. I am very happy flying around with G1 upgrades until I happen upon some materials that can make a G2.

Exactly! Grinding G5 for that extra 1-2% of whatever is entirely unnecessary and a huge, irritating waste of time.
I've found G3 to be more than adequate on any module I did the numbers on. The rest can easily be made up
for with a little skill. Plus I can enjoy my G3 ships now instead of slaving for mats for who knows how long.

X

 

[Ipecac]

I like engineering. I do think there should be more engineers, what with some systems having billions of residents-- there aught to be more folks who can mod.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I never said it was a reasonable expectation or how it should be or suggested any such balance for it. But you'd mentioned it prior to that post. I was pointing out how a) there was a group of mats that one does need to often go out of their way for rather than "just picking up" and as such anyone talking about things being G1-G5 "in one go" isn't responding to how anyone would ever expect to do anything. "Forget G5 in 1 go" doesn't translate to "it should be G5 in one go."

It should be however you want it to be.

Did you forget making this post or something?:

or this one which my quote was from and was referencing?

Yup, I remember they, and?

A number of people do outside of shortcuts and grinding, which is going to be subjective. And no, that is the same conversation as balance. The end stats aren't the only things to balance. Time cost is balanced through RNG, availability and drop rates of the mats as well.

Thats down to them and how they choose to play the game.

Now you are talking about balance for materials, I thought you were talking about engineer outcome balance. I have nothing against the balance of materials. Rare goods should be rare.

I have no issues explaining it. No one said people were trying to go G1 to G5 all at once and that's the reason they were grinding. You pulled that out of nowhere, and prior to my mention of it in response to you. That's your strawman.

It certainly sounded like that. If that is not the case then it is a misunderstanding and nothing to do with strawman arguments. I am not even trying to argue, I am just putting my point of view accross and giving advice.

Yes it does, it very much does. It emphasizes doing activities specifically for mats. It does so by concentrating specific mats in specific activities and locations and giving trace amounts of certain things if any outside of that. It's very much built in which is why you see so much focus on crash sites, HGE hunting, surface prospecting time/etc.

That is not grind. Grinding is doing repetative tasks in a way that feels like you are grinding. All games have repetition, do you call all games grind? If you do, whats the issue?, Grind is when you have to do something again and again and again that you can't get away from and there is no alternative, but as long as you have breaks inbetween what you are doing and enjoy those things, then that is not grinding. If you do one thing, then log off and in and do it again and rinse and repeat, that is grinding. That thing that I/you enjoyed doing has now become repetative and boring. That is grind. When you have no choice to do that same thing again and again and again to level up. You don't have to do that in ED. That is a choice. There is a difference between repetition and repetative.

Repatative: containing or characterized by repetition, especially when unnecessary or tiresome: this is when it becomes grind.

Repatition: the recurrence of an action or event: This you get in every game every made. Repetition on its own is not grind.

Repetition that is done in a unnecessary or tiresome way and becomes repetative is grind. In ED it is down to you how you deal with that repetition. Sure if you don't like doing certain activities, there is nothing one can do about that, but again, not liking something doesn't mean grind, it just means you don't like it much.

And as already stated, not using a system to it's fullest doesn't in any way mean the system is good.

I am using it the fullest, I just use it differently to some other people.

Yes, you can chose to be uncritical. You can chose to paint inaccurate pictures of those who see it differently. I can still call you on it. Not my fault I'd you can't accept it.

I am not painting inaccruate pictures. I am painting my picture, which you seem to have an issue with. I am also giving advice to people that don't like to grind, they can take it or leave it. It's their choice.

 

[dxm55]

That is not grind. Grinding is doing repetative tasks in a way that feels like you are grinding. All games have repetition, do you call all games grind? If you do, whats the issue?, Grind is when you have to do something again and again and again that you can't get away from and there is no alternative, but as long as you have breaks inbetween what you are doing and enjoy those things, then that is not grinding. If you do one thing, then log off and in and do it again and rinse and repeat, that is grinding. That thing that I/you enjoyed doing has now become repetative and boring. That is grind. When you have no choice to do that same thing again and again and again to level up. You don't have to do that in ED. That is a choice. There is a difference between repetition and repetative.

Repatative: containing or characterized by repetition, especially when unnecessary or tiresome: this is when it becomes grind.

Repatition: the recurrence of an action or event: This you get in every game every made. Repetition on its own is not grind.

Repetition that is done in a unnecessary or tiresome way and becomes repetative is grind. In ED it is down to you how you deal with that repetition. Sure if you don't like doing certain activities, there is nothing one can do about that, but again, not liking something doesn't mean grind, it just means you don't like it much.

Good point. Though I think that if a game introduce a feature that many players like, or take to.... or perhaps even have no choice but to do, just to keep up with the Joneses (or perhaps for survival), then the devs could start to rethink or rework the mechanics around that feature.

Engineering, while being optional, could very well become essential to some players if they want to play the game their way. After all engineering is a means to an end.

For eg:
You want a better experience exploring, you'll need to engineer those FSDs, or else your trip will probably take twice more jumps. That is a grind.
But to alleviate that grind, you have to undertake yet another grind to find the stuff needed to engineer the drives.

 

[House0fDerp]

I'm still waiting on what I said was a strawman? You seem to be struggling to come back with that answer.

At this point I've fully explained and provided examples prior to the post you're now quoting. Not worth re-addressing as you've somehow missed it here but addressed it later.

I never said you are playing wrong. That's another load of poo as well. I said in my posts they you should play the way you want to play. It's your choice how you play. The game does not force anything on you, the game does not force you to grind, the game does not force you to play in a certain way. That's all on the person.

You want to grind, go ahead and grind, I don't care. But then coming on here and saying all it is is grind, when that is something you have chosen to do is wrong in my view.

If you don't like grind, why are you doing it when there are other ways to play. It's your choice.

I prefer to play the game in a way I enjoy, if you prefer not to, go for it. Not my problem. I just find it a bit sad. But if you enjoy the grind (which is not possible in the description of grind), then why are you on here complaining about it?

I never said it forced grinding. I said it encouraged it. And it does. Loads of poo indeed. Fact is, if you want to engineer there are a subset of activities you either must do or deal with a massively expanded upgrade timeframe over the already long term intent of the system. Material traders make that easy to quantify depending on what you're getting and giving, and that's if you're getting equal amounts of tradable mats. Ever tried trading for surface mats without surface prospecting? It doesn't work well.

So unless you are playing a specific way already, like surface content for other reasons and gaining mats along the way, you will be looking for mats as a specific activity or not engineering.

I'm not fond of surface prospecting. I need surface mats for any real sort of progress, slow, fast or in between. Guess who has to grind?

This guy.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

At this point I've fully explained and provided examples prior to the post you're now quoting. Not worth re-addressing as you've somehow missed it here but addressed it later.

Whatever you say

I never said it forced grinding. I said it encouraged it. And it does. Loads of poo indeed.

It does note encourage grinding. Sorry but you are talking cack. Nothing about engineering tells me to go out and grind.

Fact is, if you want to engineer there are a subset of activities you either must do or deal with a massively expanded upgrade timeframe over the already long term intent of the system.

Explain that in english please. What is a massively expanded upgrade timeframe when its at home?

Material traders make that easy to quantify depending on what you're getting and giving, and that's if you're getting equal amounts of tradable mats. Ever tried trading for surface mats without surface prospecting? It doesn't work well.

I don't surface prospect and I seem to do very well thanks. Again this is all down to playstyle.

So unless you are playing a specific way already, like surface content for other reasons and gaining mats along the way, you will be looking for mats as a specific activity or not engineering.

Thats it, in one. I don't go on to planet surfaces to get mats. I go to planet surfaces to explore whats there or for mission objectives. Mats are there anyway and I pick them up if they are in the area I am exploring or doing missions for. Of course I am using the engineers, but I only use them when I have the specific mats. I don't go out of my way to look for them and neither does anyone else need to, people choose to (unless you do PvP, but again thats your own choice again).

I'm not fond of surface prospecting. I need surface mats for any real sort of progress, slow, fast or in between. Guess who has to grind?

Progession? Its a game of choice. No you don't need to go surface prospecting, you choose to. Progression is a choice in ED as is Engineering as is grinding for mats. Unless you want to do PvP you can happily stay in a sidewinder and experience pretty much everything the game has to offer. Getting bigger ships is not real progression like LOTRO has, it's a choice you make to progress, but not something you need unlike other MMO's. The same goes with engineers, you don't need them, you want them so some people will go all out and get them ASAP and grind it out like hell and then complain. I am sick of the complaints when you don't need to play like that, people choose to. That is a fact.

 

[House0fDerp]

Exactly! Grinding G5 for that extra 1-2% of whatever is entirely unnecessary and a huge, irritating waste of time.
I've found G3 to be more than adequate on any module I did the numbers on. The rest can easily be made up
for with a little skill. Plus I can enjoy my G3 ships now instead of slaving for mats for who knows how long.

X

We're often not talking 1-2% for G3-G5.

G3 to G5 thermal on a shield gen gives ~40% more thermal shield EHP.
G3 to G5 charge enhanced PPs are ~14% faster
G3 to G5 Heavy Duty plating provides an additional ~10% EHP
G3 to G5 Dirty Drives provide ~9% more speed

As just a few examples.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

We're often not talking 1-2% for G3-G5.

G3 to G5 thermal on a shield gen gives ~40% more thermal shield EHP.
G3 to G5 charge enhanced PPs are ~14% faster
G3 to G5 Heavy Duty plating provides an additional ~10% EHP
G3 to G5 Dirty Drives provide ~9% more speed

As just a few examples.

Still none of it is needed if you are playing PvE. Useful yes, needed no. That is why I am happy to take my time with engineers. I have been playing since original beta, I do not have a single ship that is fully G5 upgraded. It doesn't bother me because I don't need them to play every part of this game. In some ways especially in combat it makes it too easy, so most of the time with my combat ships I limit them to G3 upgrades.

 

[House0fDerp]

Whatever you say

I mean, the very next post you made to me acknowledges it.

It does note encourage grinding. Sorry but you are talking cack. Nothing about engineering tells me to go out and grind.

At this point it seems the only thing you would count as encouragement is someone putting a gun to your head and telling you to grind. Most reasonable people have a lower definition of that, like say having a long baked in timeframe for casual engagement while more direct methods reduce that time by several orders of magnitude. And yes, this system does exactly that.

Explain that in english please. What is a massively expanded upgrade timeframe when its at home?

What?

I don't surface prospect and I seem to do very well thanks. Again this is all down to playstyle.

Then you should probably share what you're doing rather than posturing about your superior playstyle. There's plenty of mats I've used that I'd never gotten prior to seeking them. This could of course also be because you decided to simply not get those upgrades, in which case, again, not using a system does not make the system good.

Thats it, in one. I don't go on to planet surfaces to get mats. I go to planet surfaces to explore whats there or for mission objectives. Mats are there anyway and I pick them up if they are in the area I am exploring or doing missions for. Of course I am using the engineers, but I only use them when I have the specific mats. I don't go out of my way to look for them and neither does anyone else (unless you do PvP, but again thats your own choice again).

I don't take surface missions because they're boring as poo. The entirety of the surface mechanics feels horrendously underdeveloped to me and as such I only go there when I must, which is for mats. Strange how people can play differently and it not be a focus on grind yet creates grind.

Progession? Its a game of choice. No you don't need to go surface prospecting, you choose to. Progression is a choice in ED as is Engineering as is grinding for mats. Unless you want to do PvP you can happily stay in a sidewinder and experience pretty much everything the game has to offer. Getting bigger ships is not real progression like LOTRO has, it's a choice you make to progress, but not something you need, unlike other MMO's. The same goes with engineers.

Sweet jesus. What is your issue with my play method?

Progression is progression. The choice in how to progress or not to progress doesn't make it not progress. It's a power and specialization acquisition mechanism in a game where the primary point of all the resources is to acquire power and specialize. The fact that you can stay in an unmodified sidewinder doesn't change how those mechanics exist and work.

I have no issue with your play method. I have an issue with you telling other people their play method is doing it wrong because of your insinuation that wanting to engage with engineering in earnest is a problem. It shouldn't be. I've not once criticized your play method. I've not once said you're doing it wrong. I've said others had different experienced based upon what they like to do and you've constantly come back with, "Well here's how I do it so the issue must be you."

 

[House0fDerp]

Still none of it is needed if you are playing PvE. Useful yes, needed no. That is why I am happy to take my time with engineers. I have been playing since original beta, I do not have a single ship that is fully G5 upgraded. It doesn't bother me because I don't need them to play every part of this game. In some ways especially in combat it makes it too easy, so most of the time with my combat ships I limit them to G3 upgrades.

Never said it was needed. It's unarguably beneficial outside of subjective arguments like not being sufficiently challenging.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I mean, the very next post you made to me acknowledges it.

Okay

At this point it seems the only thing you would count as encouragement is someone putting a gun to your head and telling you to grind. Most reasonable people have a lower definition of that, like say having a long baked in timeframe for casual engagement while more direct methods reduce that time by several orders of magnitude. And yes, this system does exactly that.

I don't care about time scale. What has time scale got to do anything. Again, I ask, what is the rush in engineering your ship?

What?

It doesn't make sense.

Then you should probably share what you're doing rather than posturing about your superior playstyle. There's plenty of mats I've used that I'd never gotten prior to seeking them. This could of course also be because you decided to simply not get those upgrades, in which case, again, not using a system does not make the system good.

I never said it was superior to anyone elses. I said it is how I like to play the game and the reason why I don't grind.

I don't take surface missions because they're boring as poo. The entirety of the surface mechanics feels horrendously underdeveloped to me and as such I only go there when I must, which is for mats. Strange how people can play differently and it not be a focus on grind yet creates grind.

I agree that the surface missions could do with some serious upgrading, but there are a few that I like, but I haven't done any for a long time as I am near beagle point. During my time exploring planetary surfaces I have picked up a huge amount of materials.

Progression is progression. The choice in how to progress or not to progress doesn't make it not progress. It's a power and specialization acquisition mechanism in a game where the primary point of all the resources is to acquire power and specialize. The fact that you can stay in an unmodified sidewinder doesn't change how those mechanics exist and work.

Progression in ED is not forced. It is a choice. I never said it didn't, but it isn't progression in a normal MMO style game as you don't need these updates/upgrades to get to the next part of the game. Which means you can take as long as you want to progress. This is what I am talking about. There is no such thing as a reasonable timeframe as it is different for different people. For me, I have no timeframe for engineers. I get them done when I can and when I have the correct ingredients. But I do not go out of my to get them. Nothing in the game forces me to do that. I pick what blueprints I want for the ship, I pin them and when I stumble accross them I pick them up. I don't need to grind out for them. Nobody really does. But people do because they want (not need) these upgrade in a fast time. That is a choice.

This has got nothing to do with whos playstyle is better or not.

I have no issue with your play method. I have an issue with you telling other people their play method is doing it wrong because of your insinuation that wanting to engage with engineering in earnest is a problem.

I never said there play method is wrong. But I will give advice that if they are not enjoying their play method, it maybe worth changing it. Of course the choice is theirs. All I do is say how I go about it and the reason why it doesn't feel like grind to me. I choose to play in a way that avoids grind, because I hate grind and I don't need to do it, so I won't.

It shouldn't be. I've not once criticized your play method. I've not once said you're doing it wrong. I've said others had different experienced based upon what they like to do and you've constantly come back with, "Well here's how I do it so the issue must be you."

I have not once said anyone else was doing it wrong either. You are making stuff up. I am not insinuating and I have not said the issue is with you or others. All I am saying is that people choose to grind. That is all. That is a fact. Its the difference between needing and wanting.

 

[House0fDerp]

I don't care about time scale. What has time scale got to do anything. Again, I ask, what is the rush in engineering your ship?

This isn't a binary consideration. There isn't just not caring about time at all and needing to be in a hurry with nothing in between.

It doesn't make sense.

What part doesn't make sense? What does "home" have to do with anything?

I never said it was superior to anyone elses. I said it is how I like to play the game and the reason why I don't grind.

And I've stated why I do.
But you've been saying, "no you don't because:

• you don't have to use the system"
• you could just do things (which I've now explicitly said I don't enjoy) to get around it"
• you must be in too much of a hurry because you're actually considering the time"

I agree that the surface missions could do with some serious upgrading, but there are a few that I like, but I haven't done any for a long time as I am near beagle point. During my time exploring planetary surfaces I have picked up a huge amount of materials.

And as stated, those just don't do it for me. Best time in the dune buggy was guardian sites and even that wore thin after a while of looking for data patterns to finish blueprints.

So to get those, I need to go get those specifically.

Progression in ED is not forced. It is a choice. I never said it didn't, but it isn't progression in a normal MMO style game as you don't need these updates/upgrades to get to the next part of the game. Which means you can take as long as you want to progress. This is what I am talking about. There is no such thing as a reasonable timeframe as it is different for different people. For me, I have no timeframe for engineers. I get them done when I can and when I have the correct ingredients. But I do not go out of my to get them. Nothing in the game forces me to do that. I pick what blueprints I want for the ship, I pin them and when I stumble accross them I pick them up. I don't need to grind out for them. Nobody really does. But people do because they want (not need) these upgrade in a fast time. That is a choice.

You can make a soul level one run in a Dark Souls game. That doesn't invalidate the tools and balance that goes into the level up system. Same here. There are things that are notably more effective with better tools. And we're free to criticize when the methods drag out the process. Yes, it's going to be somewhat subjective, it's also something where one subjective quality doesn't actually invalidate another. And the choice to not seek upgrades on one person's part shouldn't invalidate the view of people who have to seek mats because their regular play doesn't provide them.

I never said there play method is wrong. But I will give advice that if they are not enjoying their play method, it maybe worth changing it. Of course the choice is theirs. All I do is say how I go about it and the reason why it doesn't feel like grind to me. I choose to play in a way that avoids grind, because I hate grind and I don't need to do it, so I won't.

I have not once said anyone else was doing it wrong either. You are making stuff up. I am not insinuating and I have not said the issue is with you or others. All I am saying is that people choose to grind. That is all. That is a fact. Its the difference between needing and wanting.

Stealthie came in and commented on the process and you countered saying, "it takes very little time." dxm55 commented on their experience which you dismissed as well. I commented on my experience with surface mats, you've so far responded as I summarized above. Every time someone gives feedback you've got something to say about how your method is better or how "it's not a race" or "you don't have this issue if you don't G5 in one go" or some other dismissive response to something no one is saying.

I mean, if other people don't have the mats they're clearly not playing as you would even outside of the grind so why would you expect your method to fall into their preferences? I get that you go driving on the surface for whatever. Do you think telling me you do that rather than grinding prospecting spots once in a while helps my experience by having me trapped longer in that thing for less?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

This isn't a binary consideration. There isn't just not caring about time at all and needing to be in a hurry with nothing in between.

Never said there wasn't. The only reason to grind though is to get the stuff quickly.

What part doesn't make sense? What does "home" have to do with anything?

I have to assume English isn't your native language. I was basically asking what all of that meant is made little sense.

And I've stated why I do.
But you've been saying, "no you don't because:

• you don't have to use the system"
• you could just do things (which I've now explicitly said I don't enjoy) to get around it"
• you must be in too much of a hurry because you're actually considering the time"

That is not what I have been saying. If English isn't your first language it must a translation issue.

And as stated, those just don't do it for me. Best time in the dune buggy was guardian sites and even that wore thin after a while of looking for data patterns to finish blueprints.

That's fine. If you don't enjoy the activities, you don't enjoy them.

So to get those, I need to go get those specifically.

Yup, that doesn't make it grind though.

You can make a soul level one run in a Dark Souls game. That doesn't invalidate the tools and balance that goes into the level up system. Same here. There are things that are notably more effective with better tools. And we're free to criticize when the methods drag out the process. Yes, it's going to be somewhat subjective, it's also something where one subjective quality doesn't actually invalidate another. And the choice to not seek upgrades on one person's part shouldn't invalidate the view of people who have to seek mats because their regular play doesn't provide them.

Not sure what that has to do with grind.

Stealthie came in and commented on the process and you countered saying, "it takes very little time." dxm55 commented on their experience which you dismissed as well. I commented on my experience with surface mats, you've so far responded as I summarized above. Every time someone gives feedback you've got something to say about how your method is better or how "it's not a race" or "you don't have this issue if you don't G5 in one go" or some other dismissive response to something no one is saying.

To get G1-3 upgrades, it does take no time. Getting G5s will taken longer. That is not in dispute.

I mean, if other people don't have the mats they're clearly not playing as you would even outside of the grind so why would you expect your method to fall into their preferences? I get that you go driving on the surface for whatever. Do you think telling me you do that rather than grinding prospecting spots once in a while helps my experience by having me trapped longer in that thing for less?

I don't expect anything. You seem to be taking what I am writing and coming to some bizarre conclusion which is not logical. I am finding this conversation one of the most bizarre I have had on this forum. It's like you are desperately trying to prove your own misunderstanding to be correct. You keep assuming and jumping to the wrong conclusion.

 

[space voyager]

Better late than never... I too like engineering. I'd love to see the the system expanded with say exploration finds.

 

[Brrokk]

Well, at least the thread title has been answered. The answer is "yes". I'd say it's about 50% for and 50% against.

 

[House0fDerp]

Never said there wasn't. The only reason to grind though is to get the stuff quickly.

Or at all, I call spending a few hours filling up on surface mats a grind. I usually hit a few geo spots when I need something to make sure I'm not short of that thing for a while. It's a grind for me, it's be more of a grind if I did it each time I needed something. It's much better than it was prior though.

That said I allowed myself to get distracted, I'm just going to ask how this statement you just made comes across to you as logically consistent with this one:

I don't care about time scale. What has time scale got to do anything. Again, I ask, what is the rush in engineering your ship?

Because I don't get it. That or "quickly" is an arbitrary marker we're defining very differently.

I have to assume English isn't your native language. I was basically asking what all of that meant is made little sense.

And I asked what part didn't make sense. For someone who's picking on someone else' English that shouldn't be hard to get. And I'm still confused as to what home has to do with anything there.

That is not what I have been saying. If English isn't your first language it must a translation issue.

It has nothing to do with translation and everything to do with what you're saying. Your constantly saying that by only upgrading as you have mats, which is not engaging in engineering beyond what you come across, engineering is fine. Your own stated results suggest otherwise. Engineering came out 3 years ago. You have yet to fully engineer a ship. That means we're dealing with a 3 year + timeframe for your methodology. Maybe it's a difference in perception between those playing this like it's their one and only game and those who want to use the systems to their fullest without a commitment that outlast most marriages I've seen.

That's fine. If you don't enjoy the activities, you don't enjoy them.

Yup, that doesn't make it grind though.

Not sure what that has to do with grind.

Repetitive act that I don't enjoy because of a need for the mats and lack of viable alternative isn't a grind?

To get G1-3 upgrades, it does take no time. Getting G5s will taken longer. That is not in dispute.

I'm not sure what the comparative time has to do with your dismissal of their opinions.

I don't expect anything. You seem to be taking what I am writing and coming to some bizarre conclusion which is not logical. I am finding this conversation one of the most bizarre I have had on this forum. It's like you are desperately trying to prove your own misunderstanding to be correct. You keep assuming and jumping to the wrong conclusion.

I'm reading what you're writing. Sometimes directly saying peoples concerns are unfounded, timeframes are fine when they say they aren't or that processes could be improved or other times telling people things are fine because you personally play in a way that picks up whatever, all the while stating that you haven't actually finished a ship in 3 years.