Does anyone at FDEV understand the word 'Incongruent' ?

This is the heart of the problem, and why it will never be fixed.

Market prices make no sense (backwaters don't pay more for goods) - because FD didn't model realistic market response

Turrets are crap - because instead of tracking based on realistic turn rates, FD fudged an inaccuracy factor to 'balance' them

Done for murder, when all pilots escape in invisible escape pods - because implementing a realistic escape sequence would apparently make the game less playable

GalNet at 10,000 LY? Playability over realism.

NPC spawns at Res that come from nowhere (ever see wanted Anacondas In SC heading to RES sites?) - not realistic, added for playability

Slow down after boost, when thrusters are off - playability over realism

So, we can't do fun things like kill traders, and see price rises in the systems they were servicing: the traders spawn and despawn and never actually get to the station, and are not part of any coherent trade network. Because FD didn't value realism, so didn't implement it.

For a simulation game, it's surprising to see that everything is fugded. No effects occur based on interaction between physically defined parameters. It's really disappointing, but permeates the whole game. It means we can only do the actions the devs have tested; anything else is likely to be ineffective or an exploit.

Yes, and as it's still not decided whether ED is a single or multiplayer game, the current structure is simply undermining itself so it can not serve any of them effectively.
I don't know how it is possible in 2015 not to have any persistent interaction between the player and the game world especially in this grandiose scale. An average browser game can be more responsive.
The procedurally generated galaxy is an achievement for sure but I'm not sure if FD is capable of put this into a persistent context of economy and politics. This is a returning feedback and request since early betas and there is not a single step made towards the flesh.
I don't see a 10 year development here, maybe another one and that's it. Without the engine built, it does not matter how the marketing is trying to polish the bodywork: despite of the surface shine this vehicle will not move anywhere.
 
Here's a logical explanation:

Mr. Braben had one good idea (re: gaming). Elite. It was a great idea, in fact. He executed it in 1984, and he's been repeating it ever since.

Elite: Dangerous is the same idea. It has everything the original Elite had. Where we run into trouble is when FD have attempted to expand on that idea.

I still very much like the original idea, and that aspect of Elite: Dangerous.

I was about to say that Frontier was much more popular than Elite, but i'd be wrong (surprisingly!):

Elite received very good reviews on its launch and the BBC Micro version eventually sold 107,898 copies.[62] The game's popularity became a national phenomenon in the UK, with reports airing on Channel 4 and elsewhere.[63] Elite was Firebird's best-selling Commodore game as of late 1987.[64] Bell estimates that approximately 600,000 copies were eventually sold for all platforms combined,[63] while the official home page states that the numbers are around a million units.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_(video_game)

The official Frontier website puts sales at about 500,000 copies sold. Braben received royalties for 350,000 copies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier:_Elite_II

I knew Elite was massive in the 80's, nearly everyone i knew was playing it, but just by the fact of their being more gamers in the 90's i am pretty surprised that Frontier did not double on the original Elites sales?
 
I was about to say that Frontier was much more popular than Elite, but i'd be wrong (surprisingly!):



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_(video_game)



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier:_Elite_II

I knew Elite was massive in the 80's, nearly everyone i knew was playing it, but just by the fact of their being more gamers in the 90's i am pretty surprised that Frontier did not double on the original Elites sales?

In the 80's every kid had a microcomputer c64,beeb,speccy, etc... (ALL my mates did) And pretty much everyone had a copy of elite. But when frontier came out on the Amiga and PC in the early 90's only a handfull of us nerdy types owned a PC (None of my mates had a PC and only one had an amiga).
 
Problems like this are exactly why there won't be much "emergent" gameplay as the game currently stands. Most of the "living" aspects of the universe aren't simulated, so they can't be manipulated or influenced.

really ?

I heard David Braben talking alot about ghow our actions affect the background simulation, I thought that everything we do has some sort of effect ?

Do we not influence the stock market when we buy and sell stuff ?
 
- Instant respawn after ship destruction, instant death penalty for poor parking. Everyone Wanted Dead.
Because all the pilots are CLONES!
Each time you enter a station, you back up your body and mind. When your ship blows, your current copy dies. No ejection. Your in-game character loses all the experience collected since the last mind backup (docking). That is why you lose bounties, exploration data, combat bonds etc not cashed. They were not added to your backup. So when your copy dies, your ship sends a high speed signal out, initiating the wake up of your next clone.
This is the reason life is so cheap (6k for murder) and death penalty is practically the only punishment type.

Sometimes the cloning process go wrong. Resulting a clone with imperfect mind-body integration. Those clones turn violent, destructive and homicidal. The bounty system is out there to deactivate these malfunctioning clones. This allows the creation of a new, hopefully correct, clone. Sometimes the clone is so corrupted, simple re-cloning would not help, hence the sleeping bounty system. Police and Bounty hunters are not there to apprehend anyone. They are there to check the clone works correctly. If not, make sure you get a new one...

- Instant cargo load/unload. No Station-Planet flights. Stock, more than a base could fit. Tech wanted ship cargo transfer. 1t slave canisters.
It all happens because of Transporter beams
The cargo is being unloaded/loaded using transporter beams. The same beams are used to move stuff between the planet surface and the station it orbits. The same transporter is used by the tech wanted ships. This transporter beam is just too expensive for CMDRs and/or too bulky/energy consuming for anything but capital ships and stations.
Each cargo rack is fitted with a passive pad. The base or tech ships have an active pad that locks on and do the transfer. In this setup, the transfer range is around 100m most. For planet-base transfer, you need 2 active pads. Small ships would still need to land on a planet. It is a bulk matter transporter. Living things (like slaves) would need to be in stasis and inside a special protective capsule that weight around 1 ton loaded.


- No access to the current prices of other bases. Message transfer missions, tangible data canisters.
Radio is still not faster than light
There is no way to transmit on-line bulk data over interplanetary, let alone interstellar distances. You need an actual ship and FSD to travel faster than light. Data in itself can't do it. You can't ask an other station to send you their prices, it would take years to get there over radio. There is an FTL communication method, but it has an extremely limited bandwidth. GalNet, KWS scanners and automated distress beacons can use it to send and receive 1-2 byte worth of data. Like the world before wired and wireless communication. That is why you have ships loaded with data canisters, can't send your exp data, can't compare station prices on-line etc.

- The Freewinder, crappy AI, overly hostile AI, colonized bubble.
People lost interest in space travel and exploration. They simply don't care about that anymore. It is as boring, dull and just not overly comfortable. There is a HUGE shortage of people want to travel in space, let alone pilot a space ship. So the governments try everything possible to get someone out there. They even give ships away completely free as an advertisement. If that brings in one more space trucker, it totally worth it. However, because of this shortage, there is absolutely no screening. That is one reason there are so many lunatics and stupid pilots out there.
 
- Instant respawn after ship destruction, instant death penalty for poor parking. Everyone Wanted Dead.
Because all the pilots are CLONES!
Each time you enter a station, you back up your body and mind. When your ship blows, your current copy dies. No ejection. Your in-game character loses all the experience collected since the last mind backup (docking). That is why you lose bounties, exploration data, combat bonds etc not cashed. They were not added to your backup. So when your copy dies, your ship sends a high speed signal out, initiating the wake up of your next clone.
This is the reason life is so cheap (6k for murder) and death penalty is practically the only punishment type.

Sometimes the cloning process go wrong. Resulting a clone with imperfect mind-body integration. Those clones turn violent, destructive and homicidal. The bounty system is out there to deactivate these malfunctioning clones. This allows the creation of a new, hopefully correct, clone. Sometimes the clone is so corrupted, simple re-cloning would not help, hence the sleeping bounty system. Police and Bounty hunters are not there to apprehend anyone. They are there to check the clone works correctly. If not, make sure you get a new one...

- Instant cargo load/unload. No Station-Planet flights. Stock, more than a base could fit. Tech wanted ship cargo transfer. 1t slave canisters.
It all happens because of Transporter beams
The cargo is being unloaded/loaded using transporter beams. The same beams are used to move stuff between the planet surface and the station it orbits. The same transporter is used by the tech wanted ships. This transporter beam is just too expensive for CMDRs and/or too bulky/energy consuming for anything but capital ships and stations.
Each cargo rack is fitted with a passive pad. The base or tech ships have an active pad that locks on and do the transfer. In this setup, the transfer range is around 100m most. For planet-base transfer, you need 2 active pads. Small ships would still need to land on a planet. It is a bulk matter transporter. Living things (like slaves) would need to be in stasis and inside a special protective capsule that weight around 1 ton loaded.


- No access to the current prices of other bases. Message transfer missions, tangible data canisters.
Radio is still not faster than light
There is no way to transmit on-line bulk data over interplanetary, let alone interstellar distances. You need an actual ship and FSD to travel faster than light. Data in itself can't do it. You can't ask an other station to send you their prices, it would take years to get there over radio. There is an FTL communication method, but it has an extremely limited bandwidth. GalNet, KWS scanners and automated distress beacons can use it to send and receive 1-2 byte worth of data. Like the world before wired and wireless communication. That is why you have ships loaded with data canisters, can't send your exp data, can't compare station prices on-line etc.

- The Freewinder, crappy AI, overly hostile AI, colonized bubble.
People lost interest in space travel and exploration. They simply don't care about that anymore. It is as boring, dull and just not overly comfortable. There is a HUGE shortage of people want to travel in space, let alone pilot a space ship. So the governments try everything possible to get someone out there. They even give ships away completely free as an advertisement. If that brings in one more space trucker, it totally worth it. However, because of this shortage, there is absolutely no screening. That is one reason there are so many lunatics and stupid pilots out there.


Genius :D
Actually this is the best and most all-round explanation of ED's world!
Now I feel the itch again to log in (no FD announcement or GalNet news could make me feel like that!) however I have to reconsider my stance on this whether I would really like to play a Game of Clones or not.
(Too much thingking from another clone I know... :D)
 
Last edited:
Honestly, I don't find the situation you mentioned incongruent at all. It's quite normal to be able to dock at stations where you are wanted. You have to stop thinking about stations as completely controlled elements of whichever faction they belong to and more like a city full of different vendors and services available. It's more like the real world, I can enter a city here on earth I'm wanted in, but if the police find me I'm screwed. The same thing happens in game, when entering a station you are wanted in, there is usually a chance that you will be scanned by the local police force that hang around pretty well every station, if that happens you're screwed. If not, the vendors in the station aren't concerned about your criminal record, they just want to make a buck, and it's not their job to police everyone coming and going.That's also why you can find drug smuggling missions in Federally controlled stations, because it's not the Feds offering you the mission, it's some other party who aren't completely concerned about legalities. There are criminal elements operating in many stations, that's why Black Markets exist in law abiding systems. Start thinking of stations like that and many incongruencies dissapear. Read The Dark Wheel by Robert Holdstock, it's about the world of Elite and paints a very good picture of how the galaxy operates, and it describes stations as operating much more like a city with many different people with different goals, the police are the ones to avoid, other them however, no one else is going to try and arrest you (accept for bounty hunters that is).

Your second issue, about people going into solo mode is something entirely different, and there are already many discussions about how it works now, and how it ought to work. That being said, you may or may not be correct about people simply dropping into or out of solo. In truth, when you are in any system, there is a very good chance that there are in fact many other players in open play in the exact same system as you, but you may not see them at all because of instancing. Yes, many have an issue with this feature, but that's how the game works. It allows Frontier to offer a multiplayer game without running the whole simulation from their end (which costs a lot of money and would most likely require you to pay monthly subscriptions fees)

I hope that clears up a few of the incongruencies in the game for you, or at least explains a little why the game works the way it does.
 
really ?

I heard David Braben talking alot about ghow our actions affect the background simulation, I thought that everything we do has some sort of effect ?

Do we not influence the stock market when we buy and sell stuff ?

David Braben has said a lot of things. Many of us bought into the game at an early stage based on what he said. Sadly a great deal of what he said has turned out to be fantasy.
 
Good point.

We can also fly to Sagittarius A* in less than 10 hours and cross the galaxy in a few days. Yet there is no scientific endeavor to do so.. no outposts where the science community would be begging for them, no tourism infrastructure out at nearby nebulae or other interesting points of interest, no attempt to really expand beyond the frontier, despite it all being in reach and so easy to get to. Instead humanity and its entire infrastructure is all lumped into a sprawling urban blob.

That's one of the most disappointing things for me, there was no imagination put into the physical distribution of colonized space. It would have been far more interesting to have colonies and clusters, pockets of humanity, strewn throughout the local Orion Spur, each distinct and separate from one another with frontier badlands and tenuous trade links in-between. Long distance trade and commerce between pockets of humanity could have opened the game up to some challenging trade opportunities and commerce based missions, and really made something like powerplay make more sense as the powers try and get a foothold on their tiny patch of the galaxy.

The game is flawed in so many ways. It seems the emphasis on immersion and a coherent and believable foundation was very low on the to do list.

FD could be better at that point , but most of the old fart players stopped that , i think FD wanted to create a awesome game , but then it would be eve in cockpits is what i read in the old comments.

geuss what , it turned into a gank blopfest with a few lively systems. tnx class 84
 
.
You can park a few miles from a Black Hole and never get hit by anything or suffer any more than I would around the Earth.....where are the rocks, planets, stars, and other junk getting pulled in to it?..........

Though I agree with your RES friendly fire issues, the black holes in the game are pretty accurate, - stuff doesn't just get pulled in to a black hole anymore than it gets pulled in to a massive star. Now the game could go the extra mile and render accretion discs in the circumstances where material is close enough to fall into the hole, but even that wouldn't be made of rocks and planets being pulled in, - it would be more like a hot nebula.
 
Last edited:
Maybe someone can explain why I need to dock in order to receive my credits for bounties. Am I serving paper forms to redeem my reward? Are credits actual material objects I need in my hand? Couldn't it be enough to be in the system, or at least near a port to get my reward? I'm sure this is covered elsewhere, but it seems out of place. Maybe it's an identification issue, but that still seems odd for the 'future'.
 
Back
Top Bottom