Does anyone else think the concept of engineers is terrible?

You have these magic space gurus, the only dudes in the galaxy who know the hidden secrets of how to get the most out of your modules and weapons... except somehow the entirety of the Federal and Imperial Navies having access to these secret tinkering techniques as well. Not to mention, these modifications are so common that even some dinky little pirates have them! And out of nations of trillions, apparently only a few dozen know how to pop the hood of your ASP Explorer and fiddle with the engine. They must get a ton of business if literally millions of pilots are popping by on the daily, and it's totally immersion breaking in that regard.

The fact that so many activities near demand vast amounts of engineering is mindnumbing to say the least, to even fly safely in open if you aren't rocking G5 meta builds on a dedicated combat ship you're a little fish to anyone with even the slightest bit of engineering on their space-boat. The amount of time just to get one ship up to par, mining iron (Iron of all things, one of the most common metals in the known universe and we can't buy it but we can buy literal tons of gold off the market?) just to trickle up your stats little by little is monotonous. As a person with limited time to play, it just makes me want to go play something else instead of slogging through another job just to be able to do the things I enjoy without being at a disadvantage.

Playing a game shouldn't feel like a chore, having billions of credits and not being able to spend it on the simplest things like iron to give to your magic space guru is dumb, there's no way FDev can spin it where I won't think that it has been a terrible addition to the game.

I can't be the only one who feels this way?

I've seen where they are looking at making engineering "more accessible" but the fact remains is that I believe it's a poor mechanic to begin with. I don't think there's a single way it can be spun to where it makes the slightest bit of sense.

I just don't see why material trading has to exist at all. If you squint a bit you might be able to make a slight case for raw materials (though lol at the idea of having to fly to the middle of bum nowhere on a planet to farm carbon), but everything else...

You're telling me that there's entire industries around building ship parts, software companies writing code for ship systems (that can magically be transferred to a USB drive by just scanning something) and yet you can't just go into any station and just buy them? How the do these parts enter the market in the first place? What sort of rubbish proprietary contracts and space-DRM prevents me from walking into a Core Dynamics station with my billions of credits and just securing a contract with them to supply my magical spaceshipmancer with all the materials they need to make my FSD suck less? If I need a specific material why are the only options farming them myself or trading them like Pokémon cards?

If engineers need these materials, why don't they arrange a contract with the manufacturer and just bill us for the cost? Material traders would only work in practice if they're sitting on an unlimited amount of materials, so why are they trading a small amount of their unlimited stash of G5 mats to add to their unlimited pile of G1 mats and not trading something universally useful like, oh I dunno, credits? How the did they get all that polonium anyway without being classed a security risk?

Nothing about the mat grind makes any sense and that's why it's so frustrating. The only purpose it serves is preventing CMDRs with fast stacks of credits engineering their way to the max without any difficulty, but really it just makes engineering unnecessarily tedious for everyone. It's rubbish, it doesn't make any sense both in-universe and out, and it's also a major reason why people don't stick with the game and just needs to go.
 
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Nope, you're far from the only one who feels like this and it has been a common grievance since engineers were introduced (believe it or not, it used to be even worse than today).

It's (by a very large margin) one of the worst game mechanics in any game I've ever played. The amount of time you need to invest for only marginal improvements is way out of whack. Getting all the way up to G5 plus modifcations is just a chore. Even using exploits like constantly relogging at Dav's Hope or Jameson's Crash Site isn't helping much. Last year (I think) FDev asked for opinion about the current state of engineering and what could be done to improve it, yet nothing has happened. There's this cryptic announcement that "some game mechanic" will receive a major overhaul next year...but that could also mean AX combat, since this is the current focus of the game.

It's a shame that many activities (AX Combat, CZs, PvP) are hidden behind this "grindwall" of engineering and make it inaccessible for rookie pilots.

I used to circumvent much of the engineering grind by installing Guardian Tech where it was possible (E.g. Power Plant and Power Distributor). You won't get the "perfectly modified ship" this way, but it's much better than spending another couple of hours relogging at Dav's Hope.
 
I agree, engineering is a horrible experience, they need to eliminate the grind altogether. If you're missing mats they just need to add a "buy missing materials" button when you're at the engineers workshop.
 
I can't be the only one who feels this way?
It's an old game and it's not like it's going to change
People that felt like you moved to other games (well, some are still haunting the forums 😂 )

I personally think Engineers are ok

I agree, engineering is a horrible experience, they need to eliminate the grind altogether. If you're missing mats they just need to add a "buy missing materials" button when you're at the engineers workshop.

ED has mmo elements, and engineering is part of career progress.
It not a battle royale game where you get to buy everything you need at the start of the round
 
You have these magic space gurus, the only dudes in the galaxy who know the hidden secrets of how to get the most out of your modules and weapons... except somehow the entirety of the Federal and Imperial Navies having access to these secret tinkering techniques as well. Not to mention, these modifications are so common that even some dinky little pirates have them! And out of nations of trillions, apparently only a few dozen know how to pop the hood of your ASP Explorer and fiddle with the engine. They must get a ton of business if literally millions of pilots are popping by on the daily, and it's totally immersion breaking in that regard.

The fact that so many activities near demand vast amounts of engineering is mindnumbing to say the least, to even fly safely in open if you aren't rocking G5 meta builds on a dedicated combat ship you're a little fish to anyone with even the slightest bit of engineering on their space-boat. The amount of time just to get one ship up to par, mining iron (Iron of all things, one of the most common metals in the known universe and we can't buy it but we can buy literal tons of gold off the market?) just to trickle up your stats little by little is monotonous. As a person with limited time to play, it just makes me want to go play something else instead of slogging through another job just to be able to do the things I enjoy without being at a disadvantage.

Playing a game shouldn't feel like a chore, having billions of credits and not being able to spend it on the simplest things like iron to give to your magic space guru is dumb, there's no way FDev can spin it where I won't think that it has been a terrible addition to the game.

I can't be the only one who feels this way?

I've seen where they are looking at making engineering "more accessible" but the fact remains is that I believe it's a poor mechanic to begin with. I don't think there's a single way it can be spun to where it makes the slightest bit of sense.

I just don't see why material trading has to exist at all. If you squint a bit you might be able to make a slight case for raw materials (though lol at the idea of having to fly to the middle of bum nowhere on a planet to farm carbon), but everything else...

You're telling me that there's entire industries around building ship parts, software companies writing code for ship systems (that can magically be transferred to a USB drive by just scanning something) and yet you can't just go into any station and just buy them? How the do these parts enter the market in the first place? What sort of rubbish proprietary contracts and space-DRM prevents me from walking into a Core Dynamics station with my billions of credits and just securing a contract with them to supply my magical spaceshipmancer with all the materials they need to make my FSD suck less? If I need a specific material why are the only options farming them myself or trading them like Pokémon cards?

If engineers need these materials, why don't they arrange a contract with the manufacturer and just bill us for the cost? Material traders would only work in practice if they're sitting on an unlimited amount of materials, so why are they trading a small amount of their unlimited stash of G5 mats to add to their unlimited pile of G1 mats and not trading something universally useful like, oh I dunno, credits? How the did they get all that polonium anyway without being classed a security risk?

Nothing about the mat grind makes any sense and that's why it's so frustrating. The only purpose it serves is preventing CMDRs with fast stacks of credits engineering their way to the max without any difficulty, but really it just makes engineering unnecessarily tedious for everyone. It's rubbish, it doesn't make any sense both in-universe and out, and it's also a major reason why people don't stick with the game and just needs to go.
No, you're not the only one, but you'll attract a school of white pointers ready to shred you now you've thrown chum into the water.

ED/EDO is a skinner box grind design at its core, it drives every game mechanic implementation. It maxmises "user engagement" metrics for investor juicing.
Which is kind of hilarious, as that needs to be considered along with overall player numbers, which, um, are NOT good.

I don't see that changing, even with the latest stargoid invasion (expect a new weapons++ grind, going by past experience).

It would take a major shift in their design philosophy to implement more sensible mechanics that also utilised credit sinks better (ie: let players buy whatever they need, otherwise what's the point of credits), respect players time better, and make the whole universe a lot more fun.

Unlikely to happen, but who knows. I wouldn't hold my breathe on it, though.
 
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respected players time better,

About that, i have more than 6000h in ED - i do feel they respected my time since i enjoyed the journey so far.

If you dont feel the same way, maybe it's you the one not respecting your time since you do seem to waste that time in a game you dont enjoy?
Just saying 🤷‍♂️


It maxmises "user engagement" metrics for investor juicing.

heh, that's really a non-argument here.
it's not like you have to pay subs or you have to buy cosmetics to play the game.

from my point of view it's basically a free game - they even gave me a free copy of the game when i migrated from XB to PC... what dev do that for a non-sub game?
 
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About that, i have more than 6000h in ED - i do feel they respected my time since i enjoyed the journey so far.

If you dont feel the same way, maybe it's you the one not respecting your time since you do seem to waste that time in a game you dont enjoy?
Just saying 🤷‍♂️
Big deal, good for you.
There's also posts on here from players with 6000+ hours who also agree with the OP.
I have over 1300 hours, so what?

I enjoyed a lot of it, but a lot of it was also busy work non-fun grind.
It's not like it's the only game that's like this either, and likely won't be the last.
But that doesn't mean we can't critically analyse this particular experience.

It's a continuum of user experience across many people that needs to be considered, and ultimately player numbers will tell you how the continuum feels about that, not a narrow minority.

Just saying.
 
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There's also posts on here from players with 6000+ hours who also agree with the OP.

Why wouldnt they be? i mean, one can get entertained for a certain amount of time.

I'm pretty sure i will get bored at some time, in which case i will find something else to play
 
Why wouldnt they be? i mean, one can get entertained for a certain amount of time.

I'm pretty sure i will get bored at some time, in which case i will find something else to play

This is the thing though. You're saying "I don't get bored, and look how long I played, so take a hike". (yes, that's really what you're implying).
Therefore, stop criticizing the game I don't get bored with.

That's not a logical argument.
I mean, you think it is, but it's invalid from the perspective of the full user continuum, however long someone has played.

You're also wrong about "boredom" being the issue. People obviously love the game, or parts of it, it's other parts of it that suck the joy from it badly.
It's actually the dwindling amount of edge case people who keep shouting "the grind is fine, moar grind please" that are causing the ultimate death of the game, because quite obviously the game is not fine, otherwise player numbers would increase.
EDO doesn't sit in a vacuum, it has to compete for player attention from many forms of entertainment, not just games.
If it only appeals to a small user base content to grind or play skinner box missions (which appears to be the case, with numbers not recovering from EDO release, and flat), then don't be surprised if one day it just dies.
That's an FDev business decision though.
 
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You have these magic space gurus, the only dudes in the galaxy who know the hidden secrets of how to get the most out of your modules and weapons... except somehow the entirety of the Federal and Imperial Navies having access to these secret tinkering techniques as well. Not to mention, these modifications are so common that even some dinky little pirates have them! And out of nations of trillions, apparently only a few dozen know how to pop the hood of your ASP Explorer and fiddle with the engine. They must get a ton of business if literally millions of pilots are popping by on the daily, and it's totally immersion breaking in that regard.

The fact that so many activities near demand vast amounts of engineering is mindnumbing to say the least, to even fly safely in open if you aren't rocking G5 meta builds on a dedicated combat ship you're a little fish to anyone with even the slightest bit of engineering on their space-boat. The amount of time just to get one ship up to par, mining iron (Iron of all things, one of the most common metals in the known universe and we can't buy it but we can buy literal tons of gold off the market?) just to trickle up your stats little by little is monotonous. As a person with limited time to play, it just makes me want to go play something else instead of slogging through another job just to be able to do the things I enjoy without being at a disadvantage.

Playing a game shouldn't feel like a chore, having billions of credits and not being able to spend it on the simplest things like iron to give to your magic space guru is dumb, there's no way FDev can spin it where I won't think that it has been a terrible addition to the game.

I can't be the only one who feels this way?

I've seen where they are looking at making engineering "more accessible" but the fact remains is that I believe it's a poor mechanic to begin with. I don't think there's a single way it can be spun to where it makes the slightest bit of sense.

I just don't see why material trading has to exist at all. If you squint a bit you might be able to make a slight case for raw materials (though lol at the idea of having to fly to the middle of bum nowhere on a planet to farm carbon), but everything else...

You're telling me that there's entire industries around building ship parts, software companies writing code for ship systems (that can magically be transferred to a USB drive by just scanning something) and yet you can't just go into any station and just buy them? How the do these parts enter the market in the first place? What sort of rubbish proprietary contracts and space-DRM prevents me from walking into a Core Dynamics station with my billions of credits and just securing a contract with them to supply my magical spaceshipmancer with all the materials they need to make my FSD suck less? If I need a specific material why are the only options farming them myself or trading them like Pokémon cards?

If engineers need these materials, why don't they arrange a contract with the manufacturer and just bill us for the cost? Material traders would only work in practice if they're sitting on an unlimited amount of materials, so why are they trading a small amount of their unlimited stash of G5 mats to add to their unlimited pile of G1 mats and not trading something universally useful like, oh I dunno, credits? How the did they get all that polonium anyway without being classed a security risk?

Nothing about the mat grind makes any sense and that's why it's so frustrating. The only purpose it serves is preventing CMDRs with fast stacks of credits engineering their way to the max without any difficulty, but really it just makes engineering unnecessarily tedious for everyone. It's rubbish, it doesn't make any sense both in-universe and out, and it's also a major reason why people don't stick with the game and just needs to go.
You are late for that party :) Engineering is bad and it is already discussed for years. All the grinding, the process of increasing stats by given percentages and so on.
 
You're talking about a company that pretty much invented the genre and they always prided themselves in being unique and not following other gaming trends.
However this pride has been engulfed with highly inept game designs and lacklustre implementation.
Engineers was supposed to be a crafting system but it clearly went through the Cambridge think tank and came out grind.
Pretty sad from the array of talent once touted by the company.
A potentially awesome opportunity spurned by gross stupidity.

I barely can bring myself to login as this game once unique is a pitiful grind, Engineers being the prime example of that.
 
"If yer dun like it 'ere git out!"

Well, yes?
I mean what's the point complaining about he game which is 8 years old already.
It's not like it's going to change.

So if you dont like it, dont play it because it wont suddenly change from a game you hate into a game you love
 
to even fly safely in open if you aren't rocking G5 meta builds on a dedicated combat ship you're a little fish to anyone with even the slightest bit of engineering on their space-boat.
You don't need a combat ship to fly safely in open. The engineering required to make a trade ship that can escape any ganker (without even needing to high wake) is a fraction of the engineering needed for a combat ship.

You can escape gankers without any engineering at all. Look up the [REDACTED: Content breaks forum rules.] on YouTube, which shows how an un-engineered Type 6 can escape gankers.
 
The concept of engineering is fine. The execution, on the other hand, could’ve been better.

The closest thing they got right IMO is the necessary time investment. As long as you don’t follow “this one weird trick” YouTube guides, you can easily get the engineering you need during normal gameplay, with minimal time investment. You don’t need maxed G5 everything to fight the toughest NPCs, or even survive a player-killer attack in open… assuming you’ve developed basic competencies in the game. G3 engineering is overpowered as it is. G5 is pure overkill. But the way Frontier designed the engineering loop invites a certain type of player to follow the path of least resistance, even if that path takes a lot longer, is boring and repetitive, and creates bad habits that will be detrimental when you "finally" start playing the game.

 
Concept - Excellent. I like upgrading my stuff. Options etc. And it makes sense you can upgrade a stock item and and add options.

Specifics - Sure, lots of wonky stuff. Along with unlimited pirates, spaceships that sound like airplanes, very little traffic in systems with billions of citizens, Insurance makes no sense... as @metatheurgist says this list could be huge. It is a videogame.
 
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