Does the Viper Mk III need a buff?

[CMDR Corlas]

I could agree with this. Also I think it is important when comparing ships to also look at the cost of the ship. For example a stock Viper is 95,900 while the DBS is 461,000.

I believe you're very incorrect on this point. It's a commonly repeated thing, but it's entirely wrong, and rooted in an RPG-mindset that does not apply to Elite. The most agile ship in the game, the Eagle, is one of the cheapest. Same goes for the fastest ship in the game, the Cobra. More money generally gives you more ship: more hardpoints, more shields, more armor, more cargo, but that doesn't mean a "better" ship. "Better" is entirely relative to the task at hand.

 

[znôrt]

A "top class fighter" should not be among the most mediocre small ships at combat.

i guess it was top class back in the 2760's dbs is clearly superior but was developed at least a century later (after the asp explorer which is cited as form 2878).

and it depends on how you set the category. dbs (170T) and vulture (280T) are considered small with whopping 170T/280T (go figure) but the viper is definitely the best fighter below that with mere 60T and incredibly cheap which i imagine is the reason it was so popular.

it should be able to compete with ships in it's own cateogory in terms of speed and agility.

it is the fastest ship in it's category if you consider normal speed and the fact that it can boost very frequently even though boost top speed is not the best. and speed is agility, more so than the actual agility rating.

yes, it could indeed get some love but it's not at all that bad. i like it a lot. for me the greatest drawback is the very constrained visibility but i think combined with the spartan and even rusty canopy it adds to the feeling of piloting a venerable military classic. a ship with character, and just costs a few pennies, what's not to like?

this little guy http://coriolis.io/outfit/viper/23A3A3A2D3A3D2C2a2a17170202B4272525.AwRj4yyA.AwiMIyqA can put up quite a fight for its size. imagine a bunch of them zeroing in on you ...

 

[CMDR Corlas]

I think you have a point on the age of the ship. I'd love to see Faulcon DeLacy come out with a Viper Mk V. Take it in the opposite direction as the Mk IV. Rather than a beefier Mk III, strip it. Cut down the C2 weapons so you have 4x C1's. Cut down the internals to a C3, C2, and two C1's. Drop the life support and sensors a class each, and shave 20-30 tons off the hull. Leave it with the same armor (new high-tech composites!), same relative shields (buffing them, given the lower hull mass), and same engine and FSD, boosting speed, agility, and range. Price it higher than Mk IV. Now THAT would be a fighter!

 

[Ziljan]

ispeed is agility, more so than the actual agility rating.

I used to think this, but now I realize that speed is only important for controlling the range of the engagement. Sniping, fighting in reverse, and fleeing. Beyond that, speed can hurt your turning rate. Why? Because if you turning 360 in 10 seconds while going 150, it just means that you turning in a wider circle than someone who is going 125. That can put you out in front of your enemy in a turning war and is basically why can be hard to get behind large NPCs who are flying slowly, unless you boost.

 

[znôrt]

I used to think this, but now I realize that speed is only important for controlling the range of the engagement. Sniping, fighting in reverse, and fleeing. Beyond that, speed can hurt your turning rate. Why? Because if you turning 360 in 10 seconds while going 150, it just means that you turning in a wider circle than someone who is going 125. That can put you out in front of your enemy in a turning war and is basically why can be hard to get behind large NPCs who are flying slowly, unless you boost.

boost and fa-off is bread & butter in combart. true, the viper can't pull an instant flip like the eagle, dbs or the vulture, but it does turn nicely enough (much like its big brother, the fdl) and will easily out turn any ship not using fa-off and boost by a long shot.

not trying to be pedantic but this works for me at last: try setting fa-off to 'hold' instead of 'toggle' for a while. it frees you from having to mentally track fa state and allows for far finer control. need to turn around? hit boost and hold fa-off for a couple of seconds, release and you have just done a 180º. chasing someone who is out turning you in the blue zone? just shortly tap boost fa-off and you'll catch up in no time. with a bit of practice and timing you can even aim this way, i often exit fa off with my crosshair landing right on top of the target. just turn off the voice message for fa-off or it will make you go nuts

 

[Ziljan]

boost and fa-off is bread & butter in combart. true, the viper can't pull an instant flip like the eagle, dbs or the vulture, but it does turn nicely enough (much like its big brother, the fdl) and will easily out turn any ship not using fa-off and boost by a long shot.

not trying to be pedantic but this works for me at last: try setting fa-off to 'hold' instead of 'toggle' for a while. it frees you from having to mentally track fa state and allows for far finer control. need to turn around? hit boost and hold fa-off for a couple of seconds, release and you have just done a 180º. chasing someone who is out turning you in the blue zone? just shortly tap boost fa-off and you'll catch up in no time. with a bit of practice and timing you can even aim this way, i often exit fa off with my crosshair landing right on top of the target. just turn off the voice message for fa-off or it will make you go nuts

Tbh, I had been avoiding boost because it seemed to make turning wars worse, and I was just using FAoff gliding techniques with side thrusters normal forward engines to maintain distance.

EDIT: well I just tested this out vs non-boost turning with FA-Off and I find no difference at all. If anything non-boost FA-Off turns a bit faster.


Going to experiment some more with it. But at least I have a new trick to work on, so thank you

 

[FutronBob]

Normally I don't comment on balance discussions, but I'd say the Viper Mk III and both Mk IVs could use a second or two shaved off their 360 turn rate.

Now, personally, I would go as far as to say that all the sub-1 mil ships could use a turn rate buff, to give then a bit more distinction against the larger, more expensive ships. That's a bit of a different topic altogether though.

 

[Poy]

All ships need weaknesses.

Vulture is tough as a brick, but has power limitations.

Eagle is maneuverable as a hummingbird on Red Bull, but low hull and shield points.

Asp has six HP, but turns like a cement truck.

Without weaknesses, we'd have a bunch of people tanking in shieldless FAS, as just one example.

I agree, every ship needs a weakness, for exemple the post buff FdL might be fast, agile, full of hardpoints including a huge one, shield AND hull tanking, have no power trouble but... uuuh... its cockpit ? Is misaligned ? I guess ?

Wait a minute !

 

[Garbarrage]

I say leave it alone. It's sufficient for its purpose.

As far as being able to outrun a cop on foot. I'd hope most of us can. I'd be pretty embarrassed if Boss Hog beat me in a foot race and he looks better than a lot of the cops I've seen. It's almost a prerequisite to be overweight.

Cops should be given economy cars. The way they leave the car to go shopping, but leave it running is nuts. I'm not sure if they think it wont restart or what, but you'll see a lot of cop cars sitting and idling with noone around. Just visit your local fast food joint and you'll see plenty of them.

Maybe the Viper needs a foodie paint job so we can see that it's a cop. Of course, a good alternative would be to put the cops in d-rated Sidewinders.

Replace the word "cop" with the word "American" and your post would make more sense.

 

[znôrt]

EDIT: well I just tested this out vs non-boost turning with FA-Off and I find no difference at all. If anything non-boost FA-Off turns a bit faster.

you have to hit fa-off right when boost starts, and pull the stick. the sudden acceleration at an angle of your travel direcction will make the ship spin, just like when releasing a baloon. the effect is lesser if you are already fast and it doesn't work at all if you boost straight ahead too much.

if you pull gently back when boosting and already at speed you will sort of hover. i suspect this is what you are doing and indeed this doesn't improve your turn rate that much, but your ship will be boosting upward which places you above your turning target at a good angle, which can be even better than a sharp turn in most situations. (fa-off only pilots do this constantly, can be seen in many videos).

however if you pull harder while boosting your ship will start to flip in the desired direction, if you pull all back violently right when the boost starts it's very easy to do a 180º. problem here is that your ship will drift away (even make you go backwards on a full u-turn) which might not be what you want. you adjust that controlling speed, pitch/roll and bursts of fa-off.

of course in both cases you can also use directional thrusters to either compensate or increase the effect.

works without boost too, although much less, but i use it a lot to bring the crosshair near the target, then release fa-off and aim in stable flight. if the target out turns me again, a couple of fa-off taps will (hopefully) bring it back on the spot. same considerations of speed and drift apply and if you drift too much you have to compensate with thrusters or boost.

 

[znôrt]

getting back to the viper, it's very low inertia plus the good boost makes it very apt for this. the charm of actual combat ships! much like the fdl wich could outmaneuver almost anything already pre 1.5, the agility buff wasn't even needed imo (but is nice to have, of course).

 

[shadragon]

The buff for the Viper is called a Cobra. You get it when you trade up.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

Tbh, I had been avoiding boost because it seemed to make turning wars worse, and I was just using FAoff gliding techniques with side thrusters normal forward engines to maintain distance.

EDIT: well I just tested this out vs non-boost turning with FA-Off and I find no difference at all. If anything non-boost FA-Off turns a bit faster.


Going to experiment some more with it. But at least I have a new trick to work on, so thank you

Boost turns don't work too well in the Viper, I think. I save my boost for exiting a turn quickly, it's not that useful otherwise. I usually start the turn combined with down thrusters, and 90 deg of the way through swap to up thrusters and reverse into the bluezone, at 270 degrees go back to down thrusters and boost to exit.

Roughly that, at least. Not too sure on the specifics, kinda just play it by ear.

 

[Pyrebird]

I used a ViperMK3 for a long time, and now I use a MK4, and I have to say that I found few things that were explicitly wrong with the MK3.
It was fast enough for my needs, and I figured out fairly quickly how to out-maneuver more agile ships like the Eagle (I still do in the even clunkier MK4) it had enough firepower to use some decent weapons for bounty hunting and pirate slaying, and while it had weaker shields and armour, it was fast enough to do a hit/run strategy when things got rough.

I think the issue you're having is pilot skill, not the ship being bad.
As for them being police craft, it makes sense to me. Since when do you see police forces using the most powerful and expensive firearms and vehicles? Unless you're in gun-crazy United States, most western countries and cities have police forces that have weapons meant for self defense, incapacitation and arrest. The vehicles aren't top of the line sports cars or tanks either, they're lightly armoured and fairly basic cars you'd normally get from companies like Ford or Toyota (depending on location of course) so it makes perfect sense to me that the police forces would use 10 light, fighter class ships that are capable of artillery fire instead of a single, slow anaconda. (assuming 2 million spent per ship, outfitting them with high-end parts and weapons, while the single anaconda would be completely vanilla.)

 

[CMDR Corlas]

I think the issue you're having is pilot skill, not the ship being bad.

Please note that the issue raised here was not about not bring able to kill things, the issue was the mechanical performance limitations of the craft. It's a question of in-game math and physics, basically.

We're talking thrust-to-weight ratios, it's not a matter of skill. I am super-confident when flying my Viper, and I love it to pieces. That fact, and my or anyone else's ability to pilot it, exist independently of mechanical performance potentials involved.

 

[Ziljan]

Please note that the issue raised here was not about not bring able to kill things, the issue was the mechanical performance limitations of the craft. It's a question of in-game math and physics, basically.

We're talking thrust-to-weight ratios, it's not a matter of skill. I am super-confident when flying my Viper, and I love it to pieces. That fact, and my or anyone else's ability to pilot it, exist independently of mechanical performance potentials involved.

Precisely. I can out turn an eagle in my Asp, so I am pretty sure skill is not the issue. Though I am always the first to admit that I have lots to learn.

Hence why I posed the OP title in the form of a question.

 

[DragoonKnight]

As far as ships that need help go, the Viper 3 is pretty far down my list. The Viper 4, AspS, Cobra 4, DBX, and FGS are more in need of a balance pass in my opinion because they are either aimless, overpriced, underpowered, or some combination thereof. Cutter and Corvette need help too.

The Viper 3 at least isn't so handicapped it can't compete with its' peers. Maybe it needs a small boost to pitch/yaw, but I would hesitate to go any further than that.

After reviewing the numbers, I have to revise my earlier stance on this issue and agree with you. The Viper 3 and Viper 4 both need a buff to their pitch rate. About 10-15% better pitch for the Mk3 and maybe 15-20% better for the MK4

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

I agree, every ship needs a weakness, for exemple the post buff FdL might be fast, agile, full of hardpoints including a huge one, shield AND hull tanking, have no power trouble but... uuuh... its cockpit ? Is misaligned ? I guess ?

Wait a minute !

You conveniently forgot about its abysmal jump range.

 

[DragoonKnight]

I agree, every ship needs a weakness, for exemple the post buff FdL might be fast, agile, full of hardpoints including a huge one, shield AND hull tanking, have no power trouble but... uuuh... its cockpit ? Is misaligned ? I guess ?

Wait a minute !

FDL Weaknesses
1. Horrible Jump range
2. Tiny fuel tank that only allows you 2 jumps at maximum fsd range (2 jumps consume 6 tons of fuel - your fuel tank holds 8) and requires you to sacrifice one of your internal slots for an additional fuel tank
3. The fact that it costs 48 Million credits and has less internal slots than a Viper MK 4 or Imperial courier. Add in the fact that you often need to carry a 2nd fuel tank and that means you have as many useable internal slots as an Eagle.
4. Four Medium hardpoints are not well suited to taking down large ships
5. lack of huge weapons for the huge hardpoint makes it hard to take full advantage of the huge hardpoint

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Could the Viper be better? Sure... lots of ships could.

Is it good enough? I think so.

Are there better combat ships in terms of price/performace? Probably, doesn't matter though. They make the Viper better, then next day there will be a thread saying Viper has better price/performance than Ship X, and away we go again.

Spent many hours flying a Viper and loved it to bits. Great little combat ship. It doesn't need a buff to do what it does. It could be better, it doesn't need to be better.