Does the Viper Mk III need a buff?

[Pomerlaw]

What are you on about exactly? The Viper Mk3 is utilized exactly how it should be; a low-end stepping stone combat ship, on the route to bigger and better things. Like it or not, the Vulture is the pinnacle of small ships and it isn't likely that a ship that costs ~1mil maxed out would perform anywhere close to a ship that costs ~20mil maxed out. If you want to use a low-end ship, okay, but get used to having poor firepower, armor, and shields compared to more expensive ships.

Also, bigger IS better. It's why Desktop PCs have much more potential processing power compared to tablets, laptops, and consoles. They take up more physical space (and in the case of tablets/laptops don't have to rely on batteries) thus they can more effectively manage heat and use larger components with more transistors crammed in. It's why trains are better at moving cargo than trucks. And it's why the Anaconda can stomp Vipers all day and night.

That's just sad. Let's all grind to Anacondas, the Galaxy will be much more interesting then!?

 

[Alexander the Grape]

Viper doesn't need an agility buff.

Ships 5-10x it's weight and size need an agility nerf. There should be no situation in which an FAS or Anaconda outturns a Viper, or Courier, or even an Eagle. The fact that large ships are *more* nimble outside the blue zone than small ships is completely backwards. (See here for the depressing stats: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=182465)

Wish I could rep you more.

Hopefully when multi-crew comes out we can finally make large ships the hulking behemoths they should be, not giant dogfighters

 

[Goose4291]

Like (most) of the small combat craft (and the Adder), they need a speed buff.

Agility doesn't help you when you're opponent opens up the throttle, flight assist off's and starts flying backwards to get you back into their arcs.

Even then, trying to disengage without high-waking is impossible, when you can't escape their mass lock.

 

[tawittle]

The viper 3 is pretty OP IMHO. It has some of the strongest shields for any small ship and it's fast too.

Just because a ship is small doesn't mean it should turn like an eagle and just because it's big doesn't mean it should turn like a cutter. Ship balance is more important than "MUH PHYSICKS"

 

[Ziljan]

I think it's very odd that people will disregard the DB Explorer because it has such poor agility, yet the Viper III which turns 360 deg 0.04 seconds faster is considered "OP" ???

There is clearly some subjective voodoo happening here, and I think it's based on the looks and speed of the Viper. But higher speed in a turning war means you're turning wide circles (bad mojo). That is only useful for dodging turrets by flying to the dorsal/ventral side, and in general means you are being out-turned by slower ships with the same pitch rate!

I guess it's also useful for running away, and for kiting in reverse. But those are not OP moves imo.

 

[Itaki]

Boost boost boost, high wake to the next county....

 

[Goose4291]

I guess it's also useful for running away, and for kiting in reverse. But those are not OP moves imo.

Apart from, as I mention above, if you try to go toe-to-toe with a player in something more endgame level, in which case for most people the only option is to high-wake.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

The viper 3 is pretty OP IMHO. It has some of the strongest shields for any small ship and it's fast too.

Just because a ship is small doesn't mean it should turn like an eagle and just because it's big doesn't mean it should turn like a cutter. Ship balance is more important than "MUH PHYSICKS"

OP compared to what exactly? Even in the PvP small ship 1v1 league it's regularly beaten by its chunkier brethren

 

[Ziljan]

Apart from, as I mention above, if you try to go toe-to-toe with a player in something more endgame level, in which case for most people the only option is to high-wake.

There are ways to high wake that don't involve presenting yourself as a target. Speed is just the simplest and often least effective way get away.

 

[Goose4291]

There are ways to high wake that don't involve presenting yourself as a target. Speed is just the simplest and often least effective way get away.

You're right, all I mean is the player in the bigger ship controls the engagement due to their inherent speed and mass advantages, so you're only option is to high-wake. I don't have the option to boost away while my 3 wingmates tear into a target whilst I wait outside their range for my shields to replen

 

[MottiKhan]

Boost boost boost, high wake to the next county....

LOL! Yes, that's what happened today on my lunch break. A van in front of me slowed down and I passed him on the right at about 85. I saw why he slowed down as I passed. A cop in an SUV was in the right lane (Let's say Vulture against my Hauler). Luckily, we were at the city limits on the edge of his jurisdiction and he was exiting to turn around. I smiled and boosted away, 90 MPH avoiding the interdiction.

 

[Bill Clement]

Ok, just back from a hi res in the Jag (that's her, my avatar). She's still awesome sauce! Still fast, decently armed and agile. I run with fixed medium beams and rails. Smaller ships evaporate, bigger ones need a bit more care. Power management can be a bit tricky, encouraging accurate shooting. Don't take on wings or anything bigger than a Python; avoid player ships bigger than you.

I don't think she needs buffed; I absolutely believe bigger ships should have significant advantages over her. The game should have progression. Once you've accrued enough credits, you can buy a Viper IV and enjoy a lot of flexibility, longer range, more modules and all that good stuff, or you could get a Vulture, naff all flexibility, but roflstomp combat ability. That's if you want to keep on playing fighters. I didn't- I got a Cobra. Pew pew is fun, but there are a whole bunch of other things to do in this game and the Cobra does them all [heart].

These days, if I want to grind out some fast credits I take my FAS into a Hi Res and blat NPCs until the rails run dry. It's quick, easy, convenient. There's no particular danger, even Elite NPC Anacondas are just cash piñatas. It's mildly amusing, a reasonable distraction, but it's not exactly thrilling or big fun.

I'm still a little shaky from the Jaguar run! Knowing that even Eagles can hurt me really added some spice to the encounter. I've had her for over two years now, I'd be gutted to get her shot down. It was a blast! I'm so glad I kept her. [yesnod]

 

[Fendalton]

No.

Viper costs like 140k
DBE costs like 1.4m

 

[BostromNZ]

I think the problem with the Viper is less the Vulture and more the fact that the DBS is just better in almost every way for not that much more money. The iCourier also seems to be very similar in performance, yet better than the Viper with it's far superior shields and better weapon loadout.

I agree that a general balance pass on the small pad ships would be a good idea, especially the older 1.0 ships.

The Viper is considerably cheaper than both the Vulture, DBS and iCourier but I agree small ships could be looked at, although not a priority, mainly because credits are so much easier to get now, especially early on.

You used to work hard to get into a Viper and then spend a fair amount of time in one, if you chose bounty hunting. Now players are jumping into Vultures etc much earlier making ships like the Viper look under-powered in comparison.

 

[Ziljan]

No.

Viper costs like 140k
DBE costs like 1.4m

It wasn't a price comparison.

It was a turning rate comparison to show that people's perceptions of agility are not based on facts. Most people agree that the DBE is a lumbering sea cow. Yet when that same agility is imposed on the Viper, people think it's amazing.

People are funny that way.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

It's a little silly that people are saying things like "just save up a bit more and buy ship X". That's irrelevant. I don't know Ziljan, but I've seen him post enough here, on a wide enough variety of topics, and with enough knowledge, that I'd be willing to bet he can already afford a lot more than Viper. Personally, my main current ships are a tricked-out Anaconda, tricked-out Python, and a tricked-out Fer-De-Lance, and I still have more credits left over than I know what to do with.

Not bragging at all, the point is simply that it's not a matter of people complaining because they can't afford a nicer ship. It's people who have likely flown most ships in the game, and in that context, some of them seem off.

Ok, just back from a hi res in the Jag (that's her, my avatar). She's still awesome sauce! Still fast, decently armed and agile. I run with fixed medium beams and rails. Smaller ships evaporate, bigger ones need a bit more care. Power management can be a bit tricky, encouraging accurate shooting. Don't take on wings or anything bigger than a Python; avoid player ships bigger than you.

That setup sounds like murder on the heat management, I am impressed sir! o7 If you're having some trouble with things bigger than a Python though, have you tried C2 bursts and C1 cannons? Lets you keep pips in eng more often, for more boost turns, and so everything below an Anaconda just dies. (PvE, of course)

Said that, I don't think it invalidates any of the issues with the Viper III. It's not that it's a terrible ship. I love it. But something is off about it, compared to the rest of the current stable. Being able to beat AI Anacondas doesn't mean a ship is just fine, because that's not a measure of ship vs ship, it's a measure of human vs AI.

 

[the100thmonkey]

But something is off about it, compared to the rest of the current stable.

It's the abysmal pitch rate. It allegedly has the same agility as a Fer de Lance, but that's never been the case.

 

[Zeta Legion]

That's just sad. Let's all grind to Anacondas, the Galaxy will be much more interesting then!?

You don't HAVE to fly an Anaconda, FDL, Python, Corvette, etc. Just be cognizant of the fact that a dirt-cheap ship probably isn't going to fare as well against ships that cost hundreds of times as much. Logic.

I think it's very odd that people will disregard the DB Explorer because it has such poor agility, yet the Viper III which turns 360 deg 0.04 seconds faster is considered "OP" ???

There is clearly some subjective voodoo happening here, and I think it's based on the looks and speed of the Viper. But higher speed in a turning war means you're turning wide circles (bad mojo). That is only useful for dodging turrets by flying to the dorsal/ventral side, and in general means you are being out-turned by slower ships with the same pitch rate!

I guess it's also useful for running away, and for kiting in reverse. But those are not OP moves imo.

The DBX is reviled because it flat-out fails at the job it is supposed to do. It's a mediocre explorer compared to the AspX and isn't really any better than the DBS. All exploration ships suffer from the same drawback as cargo ships, ie. there's one stat which matters far more than any others (cargo for traders, jump range for explorers) and the only way an explorer can remain relevant if it isn't the top-shelf pick is by having some sort of secondary function that it can do relatively well. The AspX has decent cargo so makes a good long-range smuggler. The DBS is an excellent combat ship with stealth capabilities. The DBX has nothing to fall back on. Not enough internals for trading, too feeble for combat. For supposedly being a step up from the DBS it feels more like a step backwards in every department.

Combat ships are more nuanced by comparison. Take the FAS and the FDL for example. Same ballpark performance wise, with some preferring one or the other. The FDL has superior shields, speed, and has the C4 mount. The FAS has better rates of turn and more armour and has 2x C3 mounts instead and is cheaper. Now compare Viper to Cobra; the Cobra has a higher top speed and better armour, and worse hardpoint placement. The Viper has superior shields, directional thrust, and hardpoint placement. It's also cheaper. The Viper was the second ship I purchased and while I have moved on since then I don't really regret it either.

This notion that every single ship has to be just as capable endgame as every other ship at a given role doesn't make logical sense.

 

[Bill Clement]

On the subject of 'bigger is better'- it kinda is?

Boats are roughly the same size as our space ships:

Spoiler

Here, this is a 60 ton (Viper weight) patrol boat:

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Now, here's a brace of 450 ton (FdL size) ones;

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The missile boats are faster, longer ranged, better armed and just as agile. Just not as much fun...

It works with aircraft, too;

Spoiler

Here's your 'Viper';

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Short ranged, lightly armed, poor turn, high stall speed. But cheap and a brilliant rate of climb.

Here's the FAS/FdL:

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Huge, massively armed, incredibly agile, very low stall speed, brilliant sensors, long ranged and they even manage to match the little 'uns in climb.

It's the difference between obsolete 3rd world kit and the current state of the art in the superpower's arsenal. It's a similar story in game- FAS/FdL are the warships of our player world; big, powerful and just about flexible enough to take on most roles. The Viper and other small fighters are the 1st world export/surplus equivalent. Great value and very easy to get a hold of. You can run a whole squadron on what a single F-15 or Su 27 would cost.

 

[SushiCW]

It's the abysmal pitch rate. It allegedly has the same agility as a Fer de Lance, but that's never been the case.

Specific numbers from https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=182465:

At 50% throttle (perfect blue zone), Viper pitches 7% slower than the FDL and 9% slower than the FAS.

At 100% throttle, those numbers are 16% and 67% (!!!) respectively.

And that's before taking into account that the Viper can only barely be under thruster optimal mass in a combat fit, while the FDL and FAS can both be comfortably *well* underneath it. (Same for many other medium/large ships).