Don't we WANT to support the devs RIGHT NOW?

[COOPER TTE]

Blimey, after a sleep and a few hours work i didn't expect to return to THIS!

OP - don't worry about it. Something like this happens with every major patch.

It will blow over. Then FD will release the next major patch, and people will find the next hot topic to rage over.

In between patches, the Open vs Group vs Solo debate usually heats up as people have nothing else to rage over.

People need their catharsis.

Thanks Agony. I'm not worried really, i know most players - even those most upset at the moment - are likely to settle down a bit and will still be around. Actually, maybe just a tad worried about some CMDRs blood pressure...

Are you new here? With each major update we always pick one feature and go ape. Totally ape. Bat -crazy off-the-wall-NUTS. Always. Every time. It doesnt matter what the problem is, we'll always pick the one we like the least and rage with the exact same intensity. We'll threaten to leave. We wont buy the rollercoaster game. We were gonna recommend it to a million friends. We will definitely never play ED again. Etc etc. It'll calm down in the weeks post release, and it will be slowly overtaken by the anger that FD isnt releasing any info. That will build and build, until they do release info. We then pick our pet-peeve and the Holy Circle is complete.

Haha, Sleut. And no, I'm in no way new - just tend to read more than write, and obvs am nowhere near as ubiquitous as your good self! You did just pretty accurately sum up the general community behaviour cycle right there though; that's experience for you

You ninja'd me commander...every update of ED that comes along a group of 'core' players get up in arms, it's not the game it used to be, or it's not the game they want it to be. FD have ruined the game with this that or the other change. Threats of mass quitting, threats of people leaving in droves...sigh

I love the game and even though I disagree with instant transfer of ships i'm going to enjoy the game just as much, and probably more with all the things that going on in the game.

Frawd

This is how I feel myself (others have said similar too.) I do understand how people can feel personally betrayed when they are very committed but in my view it's a bit of a step too far, even for backers (I'm Beta myself) to expect a major developer for a game with 6-figure users to be able to keep everyone happy AND maintain funds to develop the game further. See a bit below for a clarification of my OP

There's only one detail we're complaining about - the same one Sandro said he didn't care that we were complaining about. Bad planning AND arrogance.

But that's the thing. It isn't the only detail we complain about, it's the big thing we're complaining about right now (you said so yourself in your first or second post on this thread.) I guess from FDEVs perspective it never stops! The point of this thread isn't ship transfer per se although I did allude to it (and there's...uh...a thread for that ), it's about opportunity to support the game at this time, with many positive changes incoming and more importantly new funding around the corner from the sale of another game which probably needs less long term attention thus offering a chance for ED to achieve a long term development and ultimately more satisfaction for players

And by supporting the devs, I don't mean exclusively financially, I mean actual support in terms of a community as well. There will be new buyers incoming and returning players too. I'm not sure how helpful it is to be so extremely negative on FD forum threads in terms of how we present ourselves, the devs and the game itself to potential new players. Each of us may not like a new thing or a change but if we like the game as a whole then we need to help attract players not scare them away. If there's no new players there's no new income, so no incentive for FD to invest Planet Coaster money into this game. I just think we have a responsibility too. And if we really no longer like the game after a change, well, y'know... leave with grace maybe?

But while we ARE talking about ship transfers, I've noticed that no-one here has noted that MB has answered a lot of the questions about decision-making, mechanics and lore on the "The Galaxy..." thread. One may or may not like the answers but it shows that thought and consideration ARE being put into this call. People should know that it's likely there will be a distance cap as well as the shipyard restriction.

[/ship transfer discussion]

Sandmann - NONE of the above comment is aimed at you, it was just a convenient quote to hang off of

*We just don't know game development
internal joke

uh-uh Mr Lysan - no SC Thread jokes here![big grin]

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Wanting to support the devs does not mean tiptoeing around something you believe is going to be poor game design.

[evidence posted]

If I intensely dislike and object to something, I'm going to say so. In no uncertain terms.


And no, I won't couch it with a rambling broken-Star-Citizen-fan style prologue. None of this...

[SC hilarity]

That's not "supporting the devs". That's just flat out weird.

..and just to say, I am in no way suggesting that robust and constructive feedback shouldn't be given when things aren't right for players. As you say (or the converse of) doing so does not also mean you can't be supportive.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Uhh.. if you forgot I mentioned that I'd just become aware of it, and was downloading a demo. If it's as tedious as you lead me to believe then it won't be the game for me, but that doesn't mean I'll be running back home to mommy ED cap in hand, I'll keep on looking till I find something I DO enjoy. That's the point that you're avoiding... another game being WORSE doesn't improve the poor design choices being shown here, that just makes TWO games I (and others) won't play.

I think you're not reading my post correctly, and I am not sure how. I am not slagging of X;R, I'm telling you the disastrous launch does not represent what it is now. I also clearly dont mind 'competition', else I wouldnt be playing other space games. No irony, sarcasm, pun, hidden layer or anything: have fun.

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Last year when Horizons was announced, Frontier temporarily re-introduced the LTP for those who had missed it before the 2014 launch. I made the conscious decision then of never buying it, not because I didn't expect to get my money's worth but because as soon as I'd spend so much money on a promise, Frontier would no longer have to fulfil that promise and my opinion would have lost whatever weight it had. The whole point of not buying an LTP was precisely to be able to retract my support in case I had to.

Now, I had been mulling over the decision of not buying Season 3 at launch if Frontier's price model stays the same. I paid a lot up front for Season 2, while Frontier delivered very little at launch and then only kept reducing the price as they added more content, so as a customer it wouldn't make sense for me to make the same mistake again and pay more for less. The whole instant ship transfer debacle makes this decision a lot easier. This isn't just a selfish customer's decision. It has become my duty as a supporter of the vision to use the only real means of influencing Frontier to get things back on track.

If you think that's childish I seriously hope you never lambasted the Star Citizen backers who have blindly spent thousands on a pretty promise.

On the other hand, the 'consumer' question would normally be:"Did I get what I paid in entertainment value"? Did you get fifty bucks in entertainment out of S2? buy S3. If not, dont. Only you can answer it for yourself, but I dont see why 'revoking support' makes sense 'due to the whole instant ship transfer debacle'. Unless you sincerely mean you will only support games that ask your explicit permission for every single feature, in which case I wish you good luck.

 

[Jukelo]

Snip

I think one of the first posts I made on these forums, and got a lot of flak from, is that Frontier aren't your friends, and hopefuly ED isn't your life. You aren't Frontier's community manager, you're no PR. It isn't and shouldn't be the job of customers
starved for space games to keep the forums clean for newcomers and keep quiet about things they dislike in case it might hurt the game as a whole.
Frontier are a provider of service, and we are customers. There is no friendship involved, and ideally there should be no loyalty either. Like all companies Frontier is here to make money, not to make Elite, and as it becomes more and more apparent not to make Elite as was advertised in the KS and various dev diaries. It isn't in your interest to roll over and let Frontier do whatever they want and expect no backlash which could hurt their image or that of the game. A bit of over the top early warning is always better than having to react to sales rapidly dropping.

 

[ElGuappo]

OP - don't worry about it. Something like this happens with every major patch.

It will blow over. Then FD will release the next major patch, and people will find the next hot topic to rage over.

In between patches, the Open vs Group vs Solo debate usually heats up as people have nothing else to rage over.

People need their catharsis.

Well I'd argue that if you have something as long-standing as open/group/solo still causing 'debates', then maybe there's something to be said for revisiting the situation. Maybe there's a better, more imaginative, immersive way that adds to the game, caters for the different play styles but still brings players together into one shared universe. Been tons of suggestions that showed a lot of common sense, so surely worth looking at.

I mean, FD could do that or they could just give the playerbase another badly designed, poorly implemented monkey barrel nobody asked for, that gets nailed onto the main game in such a cack-handed way it promptly fails into the big bucket of 'in progress - patch and hope'.

 

[Jukelo]

On the other hand, the 'consumer' question would normally be:"Did I get what I paid in entertainment value"? Did you get fifty bucks in entertainment out of S2? buy S3. If not, dont. Only you can answer it for yoursel

As a customer I never get what I paid for. What I want is the universe, and what I want to pay for it is nothing. On a more reasonable note though, I do not feel like 2.0 alone and the priviledge of playing that for six months was worth the 20€ extra I paid compared to what someone else paid for Horizons around the release of 2.1. Still, as a supporter of the game and sadly not just a consencious customer I'm usually willing to tip the scale slightly in favor of Frontier, for the sake of the project so I went for it. And expecting Season 3 to be ship interiors, the decision to postpone purchase was harder since my impatience/hype level is quite high for that, high enough that I might have been ready to accept the lower value for price ratio we'll get on launch.. or maybe not. Time will tell. But since Frontier have added that huge factor that is ruining whatever believability they had managed to keep, it's obviously a much easier decision. My wallet is my weapon and definitely plan on using it. In the meantime, since S3 is quite a way off, we can use words instead.

but I dont see why 'revoking support' makes sense 'due to the whole instant ship transfer debacle'. Unless you sincerely mean you will only support games that ask your explicit permission for every single feature, in which case I wish you good luck.

That sounds rather obvious to me? Do you mean people should blindly support a game no matter what happens? If Hello Games were to announce a paid DLC tomorrow, should all the disgruntled players shut up and throw money at the screen just because it would be silly to expect HG to address their issues with the game?
Every time a customer offers negative criticism of a product, there is the implied threat that if the issue is big enough and not addresed, the customer might take their money elsewhere. That's usually not a very good solution for either sides, so there is a bit of diplomacy aka customer feedback before that happens. Nothing unreasonable there, not sure where you're going with that.

 

[nats]

Just because I'm have played and enjoyed three games that they have made doesnt mean I am not going to be critical of bits I don't like.

I'm not stupid, its a business for them as much as it is a creation. But they are creating a game for us not themselves. So they need to listen to us, and mostly I think they are. But they do seem to make some wonky decisions. I am not going to stop pointing that out if I dont agree with it. I am sure Frontier will not pull out of the industry or stop development on this game just because some gamers critique their work or refuse to buy their expensive skins. This is part of the business they are in and they realise that. Some will praise them to bits and buy everything. Some will criticise everything and not buy a thing extra. Some people are in the middle. As long as people play the game and continue funding the game they will be happy.

If they developed a decent external camera system they would get more money from me. Do I care if they listen. Not really. If the game gets to be complete pants adn they dont listen to any of their players I may give up on it. I didnt play a space game for 15 years. Life goes on. Its just a game at the end of the day.

If there was one general thing I think could improve the whole 'relationship' for me it would be that I would like Frontier to show us more of what they are planning well ahead of time - what they are doing with the next few expansions so I can feel more involved in what is coming. At one point they did this then they stopped. They need to start again.

And when a mass of people start complaining about something they need to take urgent action to sort that. They are not great at fire fighting.

But on the 'whole' they are doing a reasonable job with the game, could be better but it also could be a lot worse. So I would give Frontier a B for design and C- for effort.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Not so sure about this one Agony. I've been positive or cautiously optimistic up until this point. I've noticed other posters like myself who are not so prone to vitriol also stepping in to say this is a step too far. This one may in fact be more of a mountain than a molehill.

Its not always the same people having the rage. I was part of the 2 minute hate after the 2.1 AI landed. Fortunately, that was largely due to a bug and some overzealous outfitting of AI.

This time around, while i would prefer timed delivery, i'm more on the side of "Ok, whatever".

 

[COOPER TTE]

I think one of the first posts I made on these forums, and got a lot of flak from, is that Frontier aren't your friends, and hopefuly ED isn't your life. You aren't Frontier's community manager, you're no PR. It isn't and shouldn't be the job of customers
starved for space games to keep the forums clean for newcomers and keep quiet about things they dislike in case it might hurt the game as a whole.
Frontier are a provider of service, and we are customers. There is no friendship involved, and ideally there should be no loyalty either. Like all companies Frontier is here to make money, not to make Elite, and as it becomes more and more apparent not to make Elite as was advertised in the KS and various dev diaries. It isn't in your interest to roll over and let Frontier do whatever they want and expect no backlash which could hurt their image or that of the game. A bit of over the top early warning is always better than having to react to sales rapidly dropping.

I don't disagree with you Juke and I in no way think I have a relationship with FD beyond being a paying customer. But your view of being only a consumer to a money-making organisation; the capitalist view (and that is not meant as any kind of derogatory remark) can be countered by the community view, meaning that we are part of something beyond a product but into being part of a neighbourhood (these forums, others, and also the game itself.)

We can prefer to take the capitalist view only - its just a game we bought after all. Or we can also see that some people are interested in and attracted by the community aspect and that this affects sales and concurrency which in turn extend the lifetime and improvement of the game which we, in our capital mindset, want to get the best value and sustainability from.

I don't think I or anyone (but Zac, Brett et al) should be an envoy for FD, I'm identifying that this is a good time to be looking at how we can make sure FD are incentivised to use incoming money to further develop ED and fulfil players' requests and dreams. Maybe going too far with the dev-bashing is the issue, rather than not going too far with endorsing a plc

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Its not always the same people having the rage. I was part of the 2 minute hate after the 2.1 AI landed. Fortunately, that was largely due to a bug and some overzealous outfitting of AI.

This time around, while i would prefer timed delivery, i'm more on the side of "Ok, whatever".

haha maaaan, that was NOT a 2-minute hate! But I'm glad you, I and others were at least able to 'git better' after the dust settled

 

[Sandmann]

I think you're not reading my post correctly, and I am not sure how. I am not slagging of X;R, I'm telling you the disastrous launch does not represent what it is now. I also clearly dont mind 'competition', else I wouldnt be playing other space games. No irony, sarcasm, pun, hidden layer or anything: have fun.

My apologies, I've obviously misread you in my haste to be all defensive.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

haha maaaan, that was NOT a 2-minute hate!

Sorry, maybe you didn't get the reference. From 1984 (the book/film).

 

[Monk]

Another morning...and my desire to support Frontier wanes. I just know the Newsletter is going to be a disappointment, again, and that Frontier is not going to say anything about what has been keeping post counts high this week.

I'm just tired of it. Probably should take a break from Elite again.

 

[MottiKhan]

Then buy an ED skin ... actions always trump words.

+1. Or something that you can use to further your progression like another copy of the game. A storage account for engineer commodities and such. Or an alternate ago so you can do the Dr. Jekyll/Mr Hyde thing.

 

[COOPER TTE]

Sorry, maybe you didn't get the reference. From 1984 (the book/film).

Whoops, my bad - i should've definitely got that!

 

[Ian Skippy]

My apologies, I've obviously misread you in my haste to be all defensive.

No problem. Btw, maybe you could start a topic on it in the sci-fi space games section here? Would be fun to see what someone with eyes 'unspoiled' by the whole launch debacle thinks of it.

 

[Thebadmf]

It's a turbulent moment; some think recent and proposed game changes are miss-thought or damaging- even game changing. Maybe I agree with some aspects at the moment...

On all sides of every single debate going on right now (ship transfers, existing gameplay annoyances & bug fixes, lack of C&P solution and many more things) there are ultimatums, hurt and hyperbole being thrown round like this current change might be the end.

ED might right now be in a great position. Player numbers seem to be up whether that's due to Gamescom announcements, promised mysteries, new content promos, maybe other IP failures etc who knows? That makes it a great time to make things even more appealing to new buyers. Now is the time for all players - old and new - to constructively support development options and not make final demands. Why?

Planet Coaster went into pre-purchase just recently. A really great potential cross platform app that shouldn't need too much post-release attention but from which the income could really (likely) be a part of the plan to keep ED working for many years as hoped - DBOBE's dream.

In the meantime, some FD decisions could rankle and may or may not be reversed. But threatening to remove support for FD when individual decisions don't go our way will be counter productive. Trusting FDEV staff - even when mistakes are evident - and supporting them to improve will help to ensure a longer lifetime for this unique and amazing game. So what I'm saying is...

Yeah, I'm not happy with some recent decisions but much more IMPORTANTLY I want to support FDEV in their commercial endeavours and continue to give feedback so that ED can aspire to a 10-year improvement plan rather than a 4 year exit plan

Thank you CMDRs

At this point I've spent thousands on this game from a hotas, DK2 and CV1 to a LEP and many, many skins. I'm in for the long hall.

I do have faith in FD to get things right eventually, and although I do think C&P should be a higher priority, I'm glad they've listened, "bandaid-ed" the engineers and added many QoL features to this coming update.

 

[Sandmann]

No problem. Btw, maybe you could start a topic on it in the sci-fi space games section here? Would be fun to see what someone with eyes 'unspoiled' by the whole launch debacle thinks of it.

I might just do that. When I was doing my "due diligence research" I watched a guy doing a gameplay vid just after it was released and he made much mention of the flaws which actually put me off a bit but I figured it was a free demo so why not at least try it. Hopefully they've cleared up most of the worst ones by now though. Worst case, it's cheap and it gives me something to do while waiting for the "Nuka World" DLC for FO4 to be released.

 

[Mark Lock]

OP is totally right, we should support FDEVS ! ships' transfer is not as bad as it seems, I had a look at some videos, moving big ships costs a lot of credits , up to 600k so people will only use that to move to a new HQ station , not abuse it to spawn explorer killers to Jaques station as some mentioned, believe it or not, having watched the video today I can tell it will be a good feature. Modules storage has been a requested feature for long, now it will finally be in the game, new patch will also include improvents to the map, crews and launched fighters as well as Volcanos and Geysers on planets, improvements to the look of space stations, they really deserve an applause for their hard work !

 

[Monk]

OP is totally right, we should support FDEVS ! ships' transfer is not as bad as it seems, I had a look at some videos, moving big ships costs a lot of credits , up to 600k so people will only use that to move to a new HQ station , not abuse it to spawn explorer killers to Jaques station as some mentioned, believe it or not, having watched the video today I can tell it will be a good feature. Modules storage has been a requested feature for long, now it will finally be in the game, new patch will also include improvents to the map, crews and launched fighters as well as Volcanos and Geysers on planets, improvements to the look of space stations, they really deserve an applause for their hard work !

Those values are not the final version and I thought I heard Sandro saying they wanted to make the cost trivial so that it isn't a "rich" commander feature.

I hope that means the price scales so that a rich commander with a rich ship will have a rich transfer fee.

 

[Dakron Nova]

Its not so much what they are implementing but the way they are choosing to implement it. They are pandering to the whiners by trying to throw in an instance fix.

For example the outrage over the instant ship transport, for which I have no opinion (yet). People have wanted this for a long time, but they have put in the simplest solution available which requires as little development time as possible, click a button and change a few database fields Ship.StationID=Player.StationID

Instead why didnt they use this to generate depth in game : -
- A ship transport mission on a mission board for a player to undertake?
- Trigger a persistent NPC (they have talked about these before) to actually make a flight.
- Or put in a simple timer.
- Allow CMDRS to setup their own ship transfer missions.

The reason is because these are more difficult, so the simple solution won out over realism and the opportunity to add depth.

And its not limited to the latest update, CQC, Powerplay (to some extent Engineers) were all implemented as quick fix solutions to uproar within the community that FD wanted to go away. Unfortunately quick rigid fixes do not promote emergent player based activity but funnel the game down narrow paths.

These are my thoughts, Im no hater Im currently enjoying the game. But thought I would give my pov

 

[Mark Lock]

Those values are not the final version and I thought I heard Sandro saying they wanted to make the cost trivial so that it isn't a "rich" commander feature.

I hope that means the price scales so that a rich commander with a rich ship will have a rich transfer fee.

That's exactly what I saw in the video, moving an Orca can cost 600k right now, moving an eagle 1000, just to give you an idea, it already scales well in my opinion but I would make moving combat ships more expensive to avoid the feature being abused, I see it as a feature you only use to when you want to change your HQ, not a feature you use all the time