Dwarf Spots
- Thread starter Murishani
- Start date
Stars don't stay in the TT phase very long (~100 million years), so if you see a distribution where they are close enough that you can jump from TT star directly to another TT star, then you are very likely in an area of recent star formation. Granted, all of the arms have been under going "recent" star formation which is why they are more visible than the stars in between. But if the color on the Galaxy map is a true indicator of actual stellar population, then the redness also indicates that stars in that region are much older than the average. Blue=young. Red=old. These are just averages though, and you will still see stars from every type represented, just in different proportions.
Change of plans for me - I must get to OUTOPPS with all speed, it's on the way back but I'm not going to stop for brown dwarfs until I get there.
There actually isn't a huge amount of Brown Dwarves in my travels so far but here's what I have so far.
Which on it's own is a mean of 7659.8 with a standard deviation of 2849.5 and combined with the data from Jackie gives an average of 5778.6 and a standard deviation of 4144.2 (everything in Myears).
In other words it's all over the place. It is a shockingly small sample size though.
Man, if we were looking for info on Icy Planets though, I've got 142 records of those.
Which on it's own is a mean of 7659.8 with a standard deviation of 2849.5 and combined with the data from Jackie gives an average of 5778.6 and a standard deviation of 4144.2 (everything in Myears).
In other words it's all over the place. It is a shockingly small sample size though.
Man, if we were looking for info on Icy Planets though, I've got 142 records of those.
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Right, I meant: I approached the spot with a full filter (everything included) I did a quick survey as I turned things off seeing what was present, I did not see any TT at that time, before going into the spot and filtering down to only T and Y.
Ill be on the lookout, unfortunately I wasnt able to get in game yesterday, hopefully I can get in and continue research today.
No problem Jackie, what's an OUTOPPS?
more data is always good the picture will start to come together. Thanks for sending them in! What we really need is for universal cartographics to allow us to buy data that others have turned in, we'd be done already.
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Hehe, it's a red herring, or maybe not. Drew Wagar has been teasing us all with "EB,P" - which is RO,C or "Right On, Commander" in ROT13*. Some of those brown dwarfs I was looking at yesterday are RO-C endings and the DB-C and FB-C ones are alternatives - all this without me (or anyone else) twigging it was just "Right On, Commander"
Anyhoo, OUTOP is hidden elsewhere on his website and there is an area of stars prefixed OUTOPPS so I was heading there at a dash to check out OUTOPPS RO-C B40-0 and B54-0; there's almost certainly nothing there but I'll go to them anyway then survey brown dwarfs around them and then come home.
*the computer geek's favourite cypher: add 13 to the position of any letter in the alphabet to get its complement so E becomes R, R becomes E if you do it again and so on.
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Hehe, it's a red herring, or maybe not. Drew Wagar has been teasing us all with "EB,P" - which is RO,C or "Right On, Commander" in ROT13*. Some of those brown dwarfs I was looking at yesterday are RO-C endings and the DB-C and FB-C ones are alternatives - all this without me (or anyone else) twigging it was just "Right On, Commander"
Anyhoo, OUTOP is hidden elsewhere on his website and there is an area of stars prefixed OUTOPPS so I was heading there at a dash to check out OUTOPPS RO-C B40-0 and B54-0; there's almost certainly nothing there but I'll go to them anyway then survey brown dwarfs around them and then come home.
*the computer geek's favourite cypher: add 13 to the position of any letter in the alphabet to get its complement so E becomes R, R becomes E if you do it again and so on.
That whole goosechase is beyond my mental faculties I'm afraid. I can't keep up with all of it.
Hehe, it's a red herring, or maybe not. Drew Wagar has been teasing us all with "EB,P" - which is RO,C or "Right On, Commander" in ROT13*. Some of those brown dwarfs I was looking at yesterday are RO-C endings and the DB-C and FB-C ones are alternatives - all this without me (or anyone else) twigging it was just "Right On, Commander"
Anyhoo, OUTOP is hidden elsewhere on his website and there is an area of stars prefixed OUTOPPS so I was heading there at a dash to check out OUTOPPS RO-C B40-0 and B54-0; there's almost certainly nothing there but I'll go to them anyway then survey brown dwarfs around them and then come home.
*the computer geek's favourite cypher: add 13 to the position of any letter in the alphabet to get its complement so E becomes R, R becomes E if you do it again and so on.
A cryptographers lamest cypher.
Here are some more brown dwarfs; mostly from OUTOPPS and SYNUEFAI.
Updated link.
Updated link.
Thanks Jackie!
a quick calculation there gives an average age of 8398.55 which, when averaged with previous results bumps our total average up to 7088.57 (math is not my strong point someone should probably check me on this)
I am not near my computer ATM, are those two regions from the same outer blue arm as the first two surveys, or are they closer to the galactic center?
As soon as I do a little bit of repairs and retro fitting in the bubble, I am going to do a star count by class in the pink regions to see I can notice any distribution patterns compared with the more average parts of the arms. I can actually do that from the comfort of a space station, so it shouldn't take too long. Once I get enough data, then I'll head back out to test any age or composition questions I might have. Will post an update before I head out again.
As soon as I do a little bit of repairs and retro fitting in the bubble, I am going to do a star count by class in the pink regions to see I can notice any distribution patterns compared with the more average parts of the arms. I can actually do that from the comfort of a space station, so it shouldn't take too long. Once I get enough data, then I'll head back out to test any age or composition questions I might have. Will post an update before I head out again.
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Im not capable of getting in game at the moment either and wont be until later tonight so hopefully Jackie can get back with the answer.
They're from much closer to Sol - from the void between Perseus and Cygnus (if that's the one we're in) and closer.
I was moving very quickly for a while. Back home now!
I was moving very quickly for a while. Back home now!
Im back in game now headed to a brigher pink spot to examine the density. Ive had some conversations with CMDR Ziljan in game and will catch the thread up with some findings.
With a deeper look at the location, Ive confirmed what I said earlier in the thread and am feeling a little foolish now.
There are in fact no TT proto-stars in the area at all, not for over 1000 LY in fact.
The brighter pink spots are quite a bit denser than the surrounding star community and are in fact filled with T and Y stars.
However at the risk of looking a fool again I will allow CMDR Ziljan to explain the significance of that, as it's quite over my head.
I hope this isn't all a wild goose chase because of my oversight in thinking there were TT stars present when there actually were not, and we can make something of the research data.
EDIT: Ill go ahead and just ask the question here so Ziljan can tackle everything at once, but one of the things Im still curious about is the density of the dwarves and basically ask "why here?" why such a dense distribution in these particular spots?
With a deeper look at the location, Ive confirmed what I said earlier in the thread and am feeling a little foolish now.
There are in fact no TT proto-stars in the area at all, not for over 1000 LY in fact.
The brighter pink spots are quite a bit denser than the surrounding star community and are in fact filled with T and Y stars.
However at the risk of looking a fool again I will allow CMDR Ziljan to explain the significance of that, as it's quite over my head.
I hope this isn't all a wild goose chase because of my oversight in thinking there were TT stars present when there actually were not, and we can make something of the research data.
EDIT: Ill go ahead and just ask the question here so Ziljan can tackle everything at once, but one of the things Im still curious about is the density of the dwarves and basically ask "why here?" why such a dense distribution in these particular spots?
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The presence of TT stars in a batch of dwarf stars whose age was mostly over 10 Billion years would have been strong evidence of a collision with either a very old dwarf galaxy or a Globular Cluster. However, their absence isn't proof that the these batches of red stars didn't come from outside the galaxy. It just means that it they didn't arrive very recently. If a collision happened more than 100 Million years ago then any TT stars that were created would have evolved into main sequence stars already, thus explaining their absence. So the dwarfs (if they are OLD) could have arrived at least 100 Million yeas ago (the estimated lifetime of the TT phase).
One piece of evidence that would say that the dwarfs probably aren't from Globular Clusters, but were born inside the Milky Way (or some other cannibalized dwarf galaxy) would be if their ages matched the normal distribution of dwarf stars in other non-pink places of the disk:
If the dwarfs don't have an abnormally old age distribution (they are an equal mix of young, old, and middle aged stars), then it is likely that they simply formed in a region of the galaxy that was a different temperature than the rest of the galaxy, thus affecting the mass distribution of stars forming in that region. What is odd about them then is that they managed to stay clustered for so many revolutions around the galactic core... they should have drifted apart eons ago. Clusters of stars that aren't tightly bound together (like the cores of Globular Clusters) usually pull themselves apart after a while. So that would be a whole new mystery.
Anyway, the reason that this is exciting to think about this stuff isn't just arcane astronomy or cosmology. It's because the model of the Galaxy built by FD might just be so well designed that you can actually apply deductive scientific reasoning to it make predictions about what you might find, and not just empirical inferences.
But even if none of this higher order deduction pans out, and it turns out that the age distribution across different pink spots is all over the map, then that is OK. Because, it is still very cool that a wisp of pink on the galactic map that is so faint that it disappears when you zoom in even slightly, would still result in a more red distribution of stars when you zoom in all the way. Because, this means that the Galactic Map is based not just on some artistically rendered approximation, but is generated from the bottom up and based on the actual distribution of real objects within it that you can travel to and explore.
One piece of evidence that would say that the dwarfs probably aren't from Globular Clusters, but were born inside the Milky Way (or some other cannibalized dwarf galaxy) would be if their ages matched the normal distribution of dwarf stars in other non-pink places of the disk:
If the dwarfs don't have an abnormally old age distribution (they are an equal mix of young, old, and middle aged stars), then it is likely that they simply formed in a region of the galaxy that was a different temperature than the rest of the galaxy, thus affecting the mass distribution of stars forming in that region. What is odd about them then is that they managed to stay clustered for so many revolutions around the galactic core... they should have drifted apart eons ago. Clusters of stars that aren't tightly bound together (like the cores of Globular Clusters) usually pull themselves apart after a while. So that would be a whole new mystery.
Anyway, the reason that this is exciting to think about this stuff isn't just arcane astronomy or cosmology. It's because the model of the Galaxy built by FD might just be so well designed that you can actually apply deductive scientific reasoning to it make predictions about what you might find, and not just empirical inferences.
But even if none of this higher order deduction pans out, and it turns out that the age distribution across different pink spots is all over the map, then that is OK. Because, it is still very cool that a wisp of pink on the galactic map that is so faint that it disappears when you zoom in even slightly, would still result in a more red distribution of stars when you zoom in all the way. Because, this means that the Galactic Map is based not just on some artistically rendered approximation, but is generated from the bottom up and based on the actual distribution of real objects within it that you can travel to and explore.
So as I find myself wandering this brigher pink spot, I believe the question Im asking has changed. While collecting age ranges and scanning for other nearby stars to see whats around, Ive been on a lot of "walkabouts" over the galactic map, and these wide flat top swaths of T and Y stars extend all across the "gaps" between the arms out here. Look up Betelgeuse, go up about 100 ly or so and youll be smack in one, and it's huge, expanding in all directions.
So, these dwarf fields are common and enormous, thousands and thousands of lightyears, the pink spots are part of them.
The pink spots are the same 'stuff' as the fields, T's Y's in a thick slab, with neighboring hotter stars (often M's, occasionally G's or O's) mostly above and below the field, not often inside it. These fields almost always correspond to the center of the galactic disk, in amongst the cloudy black stuff (technical term).
From Ziljans explanation I understand these large swaths of dwarfs (and red areas in general) are just areas where new star growth is slow or non-existant.
The thing that's different about the spots is the density change. In these brighter spots, the frequency of the T and Y stars is almost doubled in volume compared to other areas of the "dwarf fields".
While the control and test information comes in on the dwarves, and we try to figure out whether the dwarves in general are all the same age distribution or if the spots are special...
Either way my question is this: In these enormous fields of fairly uniformly distributed dwarves in a tight little stack in the center of the galaxy, why would certain areas become so much more dense? I can guarantee the dwarf distribution inside the 'spots' is markedly more numerous, but why?
So, these dwarf fields are common and enormous, thousands and thousands of lightyears, the pink spots are part of them.
The pink spots are the same 'stuff' as the fields, T's Y's in a thick slab, with neighboring hotter stars (often M's, occasionally G's or O's) mostly above and below the field, not often inside it. These fields almost always correspond to the center of the galactic disk, in amongst the cloudy black stuff (technical term).
From Ziljans explanation I understand these large swaths of dwarfs (and red areas in general) are just areas where new star growth is slow or non-existant.
The thing that's different about the spots is the density change. In these brighter spots, the frequency of the T and Y stars is almost doubled in volume compared to other areas of the "dwarf fields".
While the control and test information comes in on the dwarves, and we try to figure out whether the dwarves in general are all the same age distribution or if the spots are special...
Either way my question is this: In these enormous fields of fairly uniformly distributed dwarves in a tight little stack in the center of the galaxy, why would certain areas become so much more dense? I can guarantee the dwarf distribution inside the 'spots' is markedly more numerous, but why?
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Some results in, in the fainter spot I took far fewer samples because 1. there were fewer to sample from and 2. the brighter spot was much more interesting.
tl;dr: the average age of the dwarves in the faint spot is 7539 MY (with a small sample size)
Here's spot 2 from which I took 58 samples
tl;dr: average age of the dwarves in the brighter spot is 9218 MY (with a slightly more reasonable sample size)
so recap:
Bright pink spot μ = 9218
Data from Jackie μ = 9665
Data from Glyphon μ = 7659 (probably due to small sample size as its similar to my smaller sample size on spot 1)
We need more data, but if Jackies data is any indication, the only thing special about the pink spots is that they are more densely packed than other areas of the dwarf fields, yielding a brigher pink spot in the field.
Here's spot 2 from which I took 58 samples
so recap:
Bright pink spot μ = 9218
Data from Jackie μ = 9665
Data from Glyphon μ = 7659 (probably due to small sample size as its similar to my smaller sample size on spot 1)
We need more data, but if Jackies data is any indication, the only thing special about the pink spots is that they are more densely packed than other areas of the dwarf fields, yielding a brigher pink spot in the field.
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Usually large diffuse pink areas are clouds of hot hydrogen being energized by the heat of new stars (like Orion Nebula), so when you found an area with primarily dwarfs and no visible nebula, it seemed mysterious. Now I am wondering if this area is just a older nebula that ran out of most if it's blue stars, or produced more dwarfs, and the gas has been spread out by solar winds and radiative pressure so it looks pink only when you zoom out far enough (like seeing a cloud from a distance). That would explain some of the stellar density as well. But then you'd expect to find many of the stars to be the same age regardless of type.
Ah well, I guess we probably can't expect the stellar forge to be that precise. But still it's very cool that the area on the galactic map corresponds to a distribution you can zoom in on.
Ah well, I guess we probably can't expect the stellar forge to be that precise. But still it's very cool that the area on the galactic map corresponds to a distribution you can zoom in on.
I'm disappointed there was not more there and perhaps more data from non-spot dwarves will reveal something interesting. I suppose it is good that you can rely on the map to actually be showing you something and Im glad I went out there. A dead nebula feels par for the course for the spots, which I sort of see as stellar graveyards, dead stars, dead worlds, cold and barren for many lightyears.
Is there an explanation for the layer of T and Y stars in the center of the galactic disc? (in the black stuff, is that what is referred to as "the great rift"?). Perhaps that can tell us why the dwarves may have concentrated in those specific areas?
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Do you mean center as in altitude? The central plane is where the bulk of the dust and luminous galactic material is. That might have something to do with their origin. Tbh, not enough is known about T Dwarfs, and Y Dwarfs are more of a predicted model that an observed object. It might simply be that stars are more likely to form in the disk than anywhere else, or that the're pulled back down to the disk over the course of their lifetimes. Since those stars live longer than others, and are potentially produced in greater numbers, there are just more of them around by default.