Dying with Notoriety higher than 2 should mean no rebuys.

[TiberiusDuval]

I have still that good old suggestion, what you illegally break, you will eventually pay. With full price minus co-pay.
Basically every illegal* attack you do adds up on your tab. When you are eventually at rebuy or want to pay your bounties you need to pay what insurer aka Bank of Zaonce wants from you. If you do not have enough cash whatever you own (current ship, other ships, modules in storage) is confiscated to meet what you own, if all your assets are not enough it is bankcruptcy and back to loaner sidewinder with basic modules.
*Illegally: Illegal attack leading to destruction against other PF member in systems with law enforcement, and if other side has report crimes ON. Illegal attack should not mean attack against PP enemy.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I just remembered I had this idea which could dovetail into the OP:

Treat anarchy controlled systems as invisible for player assets (such as ships)

Being a criminal is fun, but also managing your affairs as you go about your work can and should be fun too. Currently anarchy systems are a bit useless, but what if players could store things in these systems and that when they go to jail (or have to pay things off) these 'extradition free'...

forums.frontier.co.uk

It would act as a nice criminal foil to 'legit' rebuys.

 

[Galactic Fork]

Instead of looking at this from a C+P angle, maybe we should look at it from a Pilots Federation angle. The PF provides our insurance. They have a whole district they own. They have sway in the bubble.
So, crimes against other Pilots Federation members cause the pliots federation to come down hard.
BUT what constitutes "crime."

1) It is not a crime to attack a CMDR with a noteriety of 1 or higher.
2) It is not a crime to defend yourself after being attacked even if you have a noteriety of 1 or higher.
3) Attacking a fellow CMDR inside of a conflict zone is not a crime.
4) There can be something added to mission tracking to loosen restrictions if factions are clashing.


Pilots Federation response is suspension of some PF perks during punishment phase.
1) No insurance. You can repurchase the model of your ship at full price, but engineering will not be redone. Storage container with materials is lost and will not be refunded either.
2) Bounty. If a Pilot Federation member destroys your ship, They can pay your insurance cost and they get the same model of your ship, storage contents, and engineered modules for themselves.
3) Loss of access to stored ships while in punishment phase.
4) Radar no longer identifies other CMDRs, while other CMDRs' radars show your ship in purple.
5) This will remain up for x number of hours times number of infractions. Max of 5. At 5 you are expelled from Pilots Federation.

You can opt out of the Pilots Federation, or you can be kicked out.

Radars will show you as an NPC. You will no longer have CMDR in front of your name. Can't identify CMDRs in radar.

NPC mode details.
1) Pilots Federation no longer provides discounts on ships. Ship prices are 3x the cost.
2) Engineers are harder to access without PF backing.
3) Docking fees at stations. Prices subject to shift based on faction reputation.
4) Stations charge monthly fees for storing ships. Prices subject to shift based on faction reputation.
5) No insurance on ships at all, though fellow NPC mode players may set up a communal insurance. (Subject to wims of thos supplying the insurance.)

 

[Screemonster]

2) It is not a crime to defend yourself after being attacked even if you have a noteriety of 1 or higher.

This is something the crime and punishment system really needs to address. Outside of NPCs like settlement personnel and authority vessels which have a unique "immune to being charged with a crime even if the cmdr they're shooting at is clean" property, the only way currently supported to make it legal for joe average to open fire upon them is to give them a slap-on-the-wrist bounty. Like, the 400cr assault bounty isn't really there to financially punish anyone, it exists solely to make it legal to return fire.

But it leaves weird holes, such as the time I was flying through shindez in my DBS, and a novice-ranked guy interdicted me with babby's first meta-FDL. He got a fine, sure, but not a bounty. I flew circles around him for a bit, but since he was still clean I couldn't return fire even though he was actively trying to shoot me with his PAs. I actually had to let him ding me before I could legally fight back. Which is... silly, frankly, but the game has no other means of going "nah, you started this, you don't get to report crimes" other than issuing a bounty.

Prior to the C&P update, these minor assault bounties lasted 10 minutes then disappeared on your next jump, so they served the purpose perfectly well as "make it legal to return fire until you leave the instance then go away", but with the advent of bounties never going away until paid no matter now small they became disproportionately annoying.

Long story short, if some dude interdicts me while I'm clean and deploys hardpoints, they're a valid target as far as I'm concerned and I don't care what some idiot whose foundation of ethics starts and ends with "what the law says is correct" thinks about that.

 

[CMDR Don Samen]

Look at the big picture. What has been done to this game to prevent ganking:

• They established founders district to protect new players. That will help them until they are tossed out of there.
• They introduced Notoriety.

How much has those two prevented ganking?

Here is what they has done to help gankers:

• Introducing engineering of ships. With that they tipped the whole balance of ships size and potential. They made the small and fast ships very powerfull, perfect for ganking.
• Listening to gankers, by removing limited optional slots from passenger ships. Both Orca and Beluga had slots that was limited to passenger cabins, and prohibiting any defensive or military modules in those slots. By doing that they have made the Beluga Liner a very strange ship. The biggest there is, but with very limited optional modules. They can't increase the number of slots, because that can make the Beluga a potential hull tank.

The Beluca with the size of a Cutter could easily fit at least 6-8 extra class 6 optional slots, replacing 2 x class 8 slots in similar sized ships. That would make it the true king/queen of passenger liners. But now the biggest tank, the Corvette can take more passengers than the biggest passenger bus, the Beluga. So by listening to gankers they also ruined the passenger lines of ships, and again tipping the balance of size and potential.

 

[Jack Winter]

Notoriety makes it hard to murder ships en masse and rapidly iterate the negative BGS influence of doing so, by causing ATR to drop in and force a retreat after a few kills at high notoriety values. No one has to get shot down for it to work, and removing the ability to rebuy for the once in a blue moon where ATR does manage to shoot someone down wouldn't improve it's functionality in this regard, which is the only function it's suited for.

I guess the OP is ready to trash the game to get rid of the horrible gankers..

I'd absolutely hate it if the notoriety I get for playing PvE would mean the loss of my engineered modules.. I'm also a player that tends to rack up notoriety as I prefer to take down lawful factions instead of picking on the poor anarchies like a coward.. And I tend to run when an ATR spec ops wing jumps in, they are fun to fight but hard and pick apart my normal PvE ships in short order..

 

[jim25]

I'm sure permanent bans would suffice even if they were not prompt.

There is only a finite number of gankers and they can, in fact, ban them all.

Everyone has the right to play the game in the manner they like, they payed for it just like you did all this talk of permanent bans just stinks.
Your not much of a CMDR if this is getting to you don't have to get ganked

 

[Jmanis]

1) It is not a crime to attack a CMDR with a noteriety of 1 or higher.
2) It is not a crime to defend yourself after being attacked even if you have a noteriety of 1 or higher.
3) Attacking a fellow CMDR inside of a conflict zone is not a crime.
4) There can be something added to mission tracking to loosen restrictions if factions are clashing.

I'm presuming this is proposed/speculative? Because it's definitely a crime to attack a CMDR with Notoriety 1 or higher, if they have no bounty in the current jurisdiction... unless you're exclusively talking PF bounties.

The whole notoriety mechanic as it stands is pretty dumb. Notoriety firstly should be (superpower) jurisdiction specific[1], and should be something criminals want to maintain rather than wash themselves of... in other words, there should be serious consequences for a criminal career if you wash notoriety... coupled with that should be substantial benefits for having notoriety if you're pursuing criminal acts at the expense of interactions with lawful facilities.

I was going to go into this more but I'll get OT pretty fast. But once again... the path to punishment for crime is tightly coupled with rewards for choosing it as well. That's how you predicate a sane C&P system.

[1] Especially with the bonkers-broken Odyssey mechanics where even fines can't be paid when you have notoriety, which is explicitly not meant to be the case.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

Notoriety is a bad metric to punish gankers by. I don't gank, I don't PvP, and I can easily rack up three points of notoriety in an Odyssey play session.

 

[Crank Larson]

Yeah you can't just wave your hands and say "ooh it sounds hard" if you've never actually used PHP.

And how much of the game do you think is written in PHP?

 

[CMDR thefezzer]

And how much of the game do you think is written in PHP?

Based on their job postings, the whole server side.

 

[Crank Larson]

Based on their job postings, the whole server side.

Which mainly runs the BGS and such - I'll concede the point, though I wasn't meaning server-side.

Most of the processing happens on the client (definitely not PHP), and multiplayer is client to client. The servers run the BGS and validate transactions (which are mainly processed on the client).

There's a very interesting video on the server-side architecture:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvJPyjmfdz0

 

[CMDR thefezzer]

Which mainly runs the BGS and such - I'll concede the point, though I wasn't meaning server-side.

Most of the processing happens on the client (definitely not PHP), and multiplayer is client to client. The servers run the BGS and validate transactions (which are mainly processed on the client).

There's a very interesting video on the server-side architecture:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvJPyjmfdz0

Ya I'm sure it's Swift or Kotlin or Akka or such on the client, but I wouldn't trust stuff like this to client side for a lot of reasons (immortal belugas in mailslots being just one example). Generally speaking this would be a thing where the clients would observe and report, and the server end would adjudicate at some future time.

Thank you for the link, I work on AWS all day long so I'm gonna watch the [expletive deleted] out of that.

 

[CMDR thefezzer]

True story, last night I got framed for the murder of an AX pilot while out doing base defense. Scored a point of notoriety.

Went and searched for bacterium as penance.

 

[Kayrox]

This is unreasonable, imagine having to spend a week or 2 farming because you killed 2 NPC ships or 4 on foot NPCs. The current system is bad but this is worse.

Even then, a couple of hours AFK inside a station would get rid of the notoriety without any risk. I have reached notoriety 12 doing Odyssey PvE, to get rid of it, I left my computer on with my ship inside a station while I went to sleep. Next morning, the notoriety was gone and went back to committing genocides.

Adding something building upon a broken system without making any significant change won't fix anything.

 

[Brimston]

If I may add an idea, why not simply remove 5% or 10% from rebuy insurance for each notoriety above 1
Meaning with a notoriety of 10 you get to pay full price if you have to rebuy.

You can still wait for it to lower, but this would be a big pain for gankers.
and player killing could give double notoriety from npc. with increase effect as killed player is weaker (an elite killing a harmless would get x8 bounty value on its head)
Player killed by a ganker would get no "data" loss (discoveries etc...) and full insurance for rebuy.

And all this wouldn't work if killed in anarchy-kind systems.

 

[Jack Winter]

It would still be a pain for PvE commanders...

 

[CMDR Don Samen]

Engineering was the key that unlocked all potential for gankers. I would love to see that gone, or the offensive engineering reduced by 75 % or more.
The ugly truth is that yes, there is ganking. But that is part of being in an open space. You will find morons getting pleasure from ruining other players gaming experience as soon as it is online gaming. There is not any good way of preventing that as long as they don't use any cheats. You can't run a mental check on everyone that want's to join, you just have to accept that they only find pleasure in ruining gaming for others.

But I would like to see them do some small steps, like reducing engineered effect on weapons. I will not mind if I don't shred an Expert NPC Anaconda to pieces in seconds in my my battle Corvette. That is an Anaconda, it is supposed to be a ship hard to take down. That ship was once the mighty Anaconda, it stood for something. Now it is like most big ships, an expensive ship with lots of potential. Protection on the stock model is not one of the potentials. But you can say that about most ships, they all have lots of potential for their size - and bad on deffensive capabilities. In my opinion there are no mighty ships anymore, just max engineered ships with a lots of grinding in their tale - just another chapter in the ugly truth.

 

[Screemonster]

I would love to see that gone, or the offensive engineering reduced by 75 % or more.

Eh, the thing that makes ganking so effective (and so offensive to some) isn't their offensive output, it's the fact that they're so completely untouchable on the defensive side that there's absolutely no chance of fighting back or risk to the ganker. If someone shows up with the proverbial G5 murderboat, most of the inflation isn't on damage output - they'll have a stack of boosters and a reinforced shield, an absolute ton of hull reinforcements, or both, and that is what makes the fight so completely and utterly one-sided.
Defensive engineering also means that they can outright ignore the authority response - if you've got shields in the thousands, the cops aren't going to deplete that in any remotely reasonable timeframe, which effectively means they can act with impunity. Likewise, there are hulltank builds that can happily sit there ganking at stations, particularly surface stations cough*farseer*cough and virtually ignore the station guns.

The upshot is that hitpoint inflation enables ganking way more than DPS inflation does, but any argument to tone hitpoint inflation back gets accused of wanting to make it easier for gankers. Go figure.

 

[Chaparral]

Notoriety is not a sufficient deterrent to prevent high security system PK player behavior.

Somehow FDEV figured out that you can't pull a gun in a station on foot. Like magic, no in station gunfights (not saying that is necessarily a good thing) - but they somehow understood that would break the game experience for their FPS game.

The same rules do not apply in High Sec systems because of reasons.

They already have a permitting mechanic in game, they really should apply it to all high security systems.

Violate the law (interdict another player, shoot another player, kill another player) in a high security system - your permit is revoked for that system for increasing time duration with a permaban for 3x kills.

Agree with Screemonster if you are interdicted, you can fight back without repurcussion.