ED does not do what Newton's Laws say......

served with a dry ice chilled mini gold brick and a twist as not to water it down:ROFLMAO:
and an edible tarrach spice beetle wing umbrella to aid recovery
 
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Great example.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UMIbdN0UFE




Well put, with very good information and an awesome link !!



Which is what I think happens in ED. It is a trade off reached between varied points of views of players.



Yes, mainly for practical reasons, not accuracy.



I mostly fly FA OFF and agree with that assessment.

Every time the speed limit is reached, the braking occurs because the reverse thrusters are activated, which implies it simulates a contrary force to the velocity vector.

But the extreme forces involved that you have mentioned, also contribute greatly to remove realism from the experience. And Engineering only made it worse. Some of accelerating/decelerating forces endured would just turn a normal human in to mush. And that bothers me, specially since a max G and unlimited speed would sort out the problem. And as you have mentioned, with your Frontier: Elite 2 example, it is perfectly feasible in a space combat game. Players would, little by little, just get used to controlling approach speed / closure rate to something manageable for close combat. No need for this silly artificiality we have in the game.
The video posted here ^^ is very good for Newt space flight combat. I did not play the old Elite but did play some Pioneer. In the old days of ED there was a lot of talk about flying turrets and that it wasn't desired; but it's part of reasonably realistic space combat simulation. I used these tactics in Evochron. I'd like to see a new space game that doesn't model its flight model like atmospheric dogfighting. I know there's a reason to make it easier or more similar to flight sims like MSFS or IL2 in space.
Have a nice weekend
 
In space when you reach a speed, you should keep going at that speed, unless something slows you down.
In space nothing slows you down ( maybe a planet or asteroid).

So when I boost I should keep going at the max boost speed, not slowing down like I do?

BB
I'm flying almost perma FA off, and this is a gamey balancing thing because it's an online game, and I don't like it either. I have speed, I keep speed unless something stops me.
 
I'm flying almost perma FA off, and this is a gamey balancing thing because it's an online game, and I don't like it either. I have speed, I keep speed unless something stops me.
Me too, thing is that as it is, is less game breaking for me, than as you describe would be. To implement such, you would have to do so in a way that would surely make the game engine cough and spit out fur balls, every time you accelerate. Why? You might ask ... Because you would no longer be in a 3D space at all, the game universe just grew exponentially, and the edges between server instances just got extremely fuzzy.

I find the game engine to be doing relativity in a gamey way, really well. If you remove that and make it as if it were Apollo 11 type scenarios all the time, I'm not sure that I'd believe that humanity could have ever left its sol bubble.
 
Newton's Laws of motion are almost entirely wrong,
And what is right ? What does entirely explain all natural phenomena in a perfect way?

Nothing made by humanity does.


but they are close enough to what we actually observe that they can be uses to predict behavior within a certain acceptable parameter.
Therefore can be an effective pillar for many simpler calculations.


Their advantage is that they are simple to apply, their disadvantage is that once you get outside of a certain level of application they start causing issues, this is why the GPS system has to be adjusted for relativistic effects or it quickly loses accuracy. Under Newton's Laws this wouldn't be necessary.
If one needs more precision for specific situations, the Laws of Relativity are there to use.


They are good enough for most uses is about the best that can be said.
Therefore, for many situations entirely adequate.

Human definition of Law, in the Scientific sense, is never applied as a definitive unbreakable postulate. Not even outside of it (Judicial Laws, etc...). The very core of Science is the continuous evolution of the methods to explain the Universe. These theorems, postulates, laws are never definitive. Therefore, the term "Law" is perfectly applicable for a solution that explains the vast majority of the phenomena. In regard to Newton's Laws, you also have to take in to consideration that, for its time (1600s) it did, for all intent and purposes, explain all observable phenomena at the time. That is why it was called Law. The laws of Relativity we use today will be superseded in the future. And someone like you will come to a "forum" like this and explain that "the Laws of Relativity should not be called Laws because they were superseded for something better". It is only natural, that is the way of Science. It does not invalidate the fact that they were called Laws and it made every sense in doing so, and it still does.
 
This is not my idea, it is physics.

I'm talking about the torque that is required to generate angular momentum, the faster that you are traveling in a straight line, the more thrust is required to deviate from that line. Clearly the main thrusters have far more thrust than any of the boosters, so beyond a calculable velocity the directional thrusters would no longer have any effect.
I now understand what you are saying.

It will always have an effect, because thrust is being applied. It is not a 0 sum. It is just that, relatively to the speed vector, the input of the lateral thrusters will effect, perceptually, less, the direction of that vector the greater the speed. It might become negligible but it is never 0, if thrust is being applied.

As I have said before, that does not apply to the ship's attitude. That is independent from the speed vector.


Currently in game the ships nav computer slows the ship when you reach a set velocity or speed, no idea which though, and so If you want to remove this in game, you could do so with engineering and applying what would most likely be illegal firmware patch to remove the limiter that has been placed by the ships constructor on the thrusters.
We are talking about FDev's decisions in the making of the game, not some in-game solution.


Laws and rules are made to be broken, that is how science ~ the rule book ~ evolves using the method to insure a lucid rational.
Are you familiar with the eccentric orbit of mercury, the orbit that does not fit the newtonian algorithms? Rather fitting, as Mercury is often caste in lore as the cheeky devil, bending or modifying the rules!
Yes, I am. Read my reply to @varonica.


Addendum:
The crossover between law and lore is rather more fused since Godels incompleteness theory blew up Bertrand Russels teapot having located it in orbit by a process of logical construction, rather than the laboured process of deduction. Have you read about or come across constructor theory? If not you might consider doing so, it is capable of some considerable feats yet is completely different from anything in the current rule book.
No. Not interested in philosophical interpretations when it pertains to Scientific matters.
 
Me too, thing is that as it is, is less game breaking for me, than as you describe would be. To implement such, you would have to do so in a way that would surely make the game engine cough and spit out fur balls, every time you accelerate. Why? You might ask ... Because you would no longer be in a 3D space at all, the game universe just grew exponentially, and the edges between server instances just got extremely fuzzy.

I find the game engine to be doing relativity in a gamey way, really well. If you remove that and make it as if it were Apollo 11 type scenarios all the time, I'm not sure that I'd believe that humanity could have ever left its sol bubble.
They could at least keep me flying at boost speed in FA off. That would make it a lot better already. Technical restrictions are technical restrictions. It's no use to complain about those (see fleet carriers and console development), but I am very sure the automatic brakes after boosting is a balancing thing. If this was a single player game we'd most likely have mods, and that would be one thing I'd mod away. Among many others. :D
But well, it is the way it is, so I'll have to keep hitting the boost button to keep the speed up. Object in space or not.
 
Well, this turned into an interesting discussion about relativity and whatnot...

... but at the speeds which ships in ED* travel, plus skipping light years in distance by transitioning through an alternate reality (in the assumption that "Witch Space", or more technically known as 'hyperspace', is actually one... someone remind me if my lore memory is off), would that time dilation really matter much? Don't think most people would bat that much of an eye at it if your selection of Lavian Brandy had a few minutes/hours of age less than another of the same batch that, say, never left the planet Lave, in the 34th century. Of course, if it did stay onboard a starport orbiting at high velocities for a prolonged period of time, or a ship which for one reason or another kept it in storage for that time...

*Specifically, since the other games handled travel rather differently, as I understand. Never played them myself, though. I was minus fourteen years old when the very original released.
 
you want it to age relative to the universe

And there is no way to do this within the bounds of known physics.

would that time dilation really matter much?

Depends on how long you can accelerate for. Ships in ED don't really have the fuel to make it matter. They can accelerate plenty fast (5g without boost and 30-40g with boost, at the top end), but they couldn't keep this up long enough to reach relativistic velocities, even without arbitrary velocity caps.
 
Well, this turned into an interesting discussion about relativity and whatnot...

... but at the speeds which ships in ED* travel, plus skipping light years in distance by transitioning through an alternate reality (in the assumption that "Witch Space", or more technically known as 'hyperspace', is actually one... someone remind me if my lore memory is off), would that time dilation really matter much? Don't think most people would bat that much of an eye at it if your selection of Lavian Brandy had a few minutes/hours of age less than another of the same batch that, say, never left the planet Lave, in the 34th century. Of course, if it did stay onboard a starport orbiting at high velocities for a prolonged period of time, or a ship which for one reason or another kept it in storage for that time...

*Specifically, since the other games handled travel rather differently, as I understand. Never played them myself, though. I was minus fourteen years old when the very original released.
It did indeed; I love these subjects!

If memory serves, witchspace is the space in which tunnels or worm holes in space exist, if we negate the notion of spacetime, the space that we bore into when using hyperspace drives; Permitting faster than light travel. The ominous space through which the thargoids travel.

In super cruse we could see physical objects at a distance deforming, becoming stretched out as we begin to move faster than the light that we emit, to someone who is not inside of our referential frame; For them the viewer, there might even be a bang or a massive flash, as we pass the speed of light, the light barrier.
If we consider the theory of non-contiguous spacetime or loop quantum gravity as true you can age it in relation to some of the universe, that's not very helpful though. (y)
Oh yes, and things get really interesting here, how high gravity quantise in this case? This could lead to the very real practice of magic, by which we make a barrel of Lavian brandy appear out of thin air! Just as an electron miraculously jumps into another orbit, so the matter would miraculously jump into our gravitational, now I refrain from using orbit here as it would be way to misleading, our gravitational group or set, our branch of time. From this point on things take on a distinctly 'Terry Pratchett' tone.

Oh man I'm such a nerd about these things!
 
It's all about context, Newtons laws are superb within our earth bound context, our frame of reference. However, as soon as you move a way from that, things get very odd; Be it in distance, velocity, speed or scale. As mentioned above, the orbit of mercury is the first indication of this.

Limits are the key here to growing what is odd about it all, if you don't believe me, read about George Cantor; Were the poor fellow alive sill today he would surely attest to this, if you could shake him from his depression, likely caused by the torment from his peers.

Rodger Penrose uses the diagrams of Escher to illustrate this quite wonderfully, this one is often used to explain light cones in the context of the universe; The point to this is that by rotating the speresque shape, it not a sphere but looks like one, the shapes from the edges appear larger when in the middle, they are all said to be exactly the same size, though the border of the circle is fractal and expands infinitely in each of the eight directions, an infinite plane.

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They could at least keep me flying at boost speed in FA off. That would make it a lot better already. Technical restrictions are technical restrictions. It's no use to complain about those (see fleet carriers and console development), but I am very sure the automatic brakes after boosting is a balancing thing. If this was a single player game we'd most likely have mods, and that would be one thing I'd mod away. Among many others. :D
But well, it is the way it is, so I'll have to keep hitting the boost button to keep the speed up. Object in space or not.
If this was a single player game we would probably have the ability to fast forward time.
 
If this was a single player game we would probably have the ability to fast forward time.
Yes. Like in Elite 2 Frontier and First Encounters. I am pretty sure, the online thing is also why jumps happen instantly now. In the prequels they took a really long time.
I can imagine that's something that came from the Traveller RPG, which I'm very sure inspired the Elite lore.
In any case, I take more physics and scientific accuracy anytime.
 
Then you will never be a doctor of philosophy.
That only has meaning for Anglo-Saxon countries.

In Anglo-Saxon countries any Science doctorate is a "doctor of philosophy".

Not in my country. Here, a "doctor of philosophy" only pertains to studies in the area of Philosophy, not Science.

Doctorates here are all named differently for specific areas...
 
In Anglo-Saxon countries any Science doctorate is a "doctor of philosophy".
As far as I know this is because of (unsurprisingly) historical reasons. Quite old historical reasons. Probably comes from the time when physics, math and theology were considered sub-categories of philosophy, before the enlightenment era, when they were (pretty much in essence) separated into their own independent categories.
 
That only has meaning for Anglo-Saxon countries.

In Anglo-Saxon countries any Science doctorate is a "doctor of philosophy".

Not in my country. Here, a "doctor of philosophy" only pertains to studies in the area of Philosophy, not Science.

Doctorates here are all named differently for specific areas...
The scientific method is pretty much the same, no matter the country, because most cultures have a similar underlying philosophy; Though it does differ, because every country's underlying philosophy is slightly different, this is an aspect of culture that very much pertains to its language, any philosophy worth its weight, addresses the subject of how it is that language effects perception, how perception and language are interrelated. Scientific practice, without any understanding of this, is somewhat akin to mathematics without an inkling as to the implications of Godels incompleteness theorem.

Which brings me to the following point: it would seem to be the case that we do not share the same underlying conception as to what the word philosophy means, 'philo' from the Ancient Greek love for or love of, 'sophy' the goddess of wisdom or knowledge.

IMHO Very few in Anglo-Saxon countries would share my understanding as to what the word philosophy means either, I accredit this to being a 'sign of the times' more than anything else. I firmly believe that the dissociation of reasoning about logic from the exploration of reality, we risks transforming the scientific method into little more than a religious ritual and in consequence, indoctrinate terrible practitioners. The label 'doctor' and the nature of schooling has little to do with philosophy and the understanding of reality, other than the propagation of lineages, and auto accreditation; Precisely why your understanding can differ from mine, and this is a very good thing.

This is of course my subjective opinion, based upon my own personal philosophy ... We are arguing semantics.
 
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