You're probably on the 'ignore list', like me and many others...
"ED Refugee" post in Star Citizen forum - Just shows you know nothing John Snow...
- Thread starter Donati
- Start date
i really don´t understand the reason for this kind of posts.
why care what other people write in the forum of a different game?
why do people on both sides seem to take this so bloody serious?
you could be sad that many players leave the game,
but not mad that they found something they consider worth their time.
you could be mad that fdevs released a product so bad that many lost hope for a positive future,
but i´m pretty sure many will return once ody is in a better state.
so why are players attacking each other?
not enough pvp ingame?
try to take it with humor, no reason to get upset
why care what other people write in the forum of a different game?
why do people on both sides seem to take this so bloody serious?
you could be sad that many players leave the game,
but not mad that they found something they consider worth their time.
you could be mad that fdevs released a product so bad that many lost hope for a positive future,
but i´m pretty sure many will return once ody is in a better state.
so why are players attacking each other?
not enough pvp ingame?
try to take it with humor, no reason to get upset
The OP should rejoice. After all, people could just hang around this forum and post about their favorite not-Elite space games all day long. At least the ED Refugee in question went to the proper forum to sing love songs to his new favorite game.
Still it's unrealistic when you need to simulate an economy in the game
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
Elite has never intended to simulate an economy though. Not like EVE or X4 at any rate.
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This doesn't even make sense.
It makes no sense that such outposts exist without a specific reason.
Why a truck driver should bring stuff to a far place spending more time and fuel? Because he got paid more or because he can transport something valueble.
And why an outpost should be built so far? Because there's some valuable extracted material or produced products.
There could be some underlying reason of where outposts, etc., are placed.
Face facts here, it's just not exactly the same game as X4 or Eve. Maybe I have this wrong, but in those games, don't you build up fleets of ships? You can effect the market, because you become large enough to effect it. ED is you, and while you can effect supply a bit by buying a bunch of stuff at a station, in CG's for example, in the long run, you have little effect. We're what, thousands of commanders, some who only do combat, some who mine, some who trade. There's umpteen billions of people in the galaxy. So of course they can only simulate it generally. Even if they did simulate it more precisely, the outcome may not differ by much.
Why do prices not fluctuate as you'd think, based on remoteness? This is similar to those who go travelling very far, and are surprised when other AI ships are there. Why be surprised? Again, the galaxy has billions and billions of people, not all are in the pilots federation. You happen to go to some place, but percentage-wise, that could mean 8 other "people" did the same thing i.e. there could be a lot of stuff happening we in the pilots federation aren't aware of. This isn't lore stuff, just sorta how things make sense to me.
ED is like home, then, you know?
CMDR 1 : "oh, hey, Im heading out... "
CMDR H : "where to?"
CMDR 1 : "heading over to SE for a bit....be home by 11!"
CMDR % : "be careful out there..."
You don't have to be a fleet to affect the markets in X4. For example, if there is a shortage of hull parts that prevent me from buying a new ship (because there are no parts to build it), I can use a single trading ship to get those parts and transport them to the shipyard in need, which in turn allows the shipyard to proceed in building my new ship.
In contrast, I can patrol enemy space in my "submarine" ship, "sinking" enemy cargo ships, and this will have an effect, perhaps even a profound effect, on the enemy's supply chain.
In other words, I can affect markets as a single pilot who switches to an appropriate ship, just like I would in ED. But as viagero said, this would need to be adjusted for Elite due to the sheer scale of Elite. Even then, I as a single pilot should in theory be able to wreck or build the economy of a small 1000 person system, depending on my actions. I doubt I could single-handledly tank the economy of a system like Sol with billions of people spread over countless stations. X4 really doesn't take this into consideration - stations are independent entities not tied to the planets they orbit.
FWIW, I'm more interested in the idea that I can follow an NPC from one station to another in X4 and that NPC is actually doing something important, affecting the entire system. I'd love it if Elite would at least simulate this. For example, if I pull up the galaxy map and look at NPC trade routes, I should be able to then see actual real NPC traffic flying between these systems carrying the goods that are shown in those trade routes. That would go a LONG way to feed my immersion
Do you have a source for this claim? I doubt the current system was added by accident.
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
I think the burden here is on those that claimed before than me in this discussion that Elite was supposed to have an actual economy. An "actual economy" defined as those in X4 or EVE. But if your definition of "actual economy" varies then we may be all in agreement.
Oh, well now it's an "actual economy". I think we're in agreement that Elite is intended to simulate economies, given how it, you know, has economies. Naturally we're not going to find a video from Braben saying how they want to copy X4 or Eve's economy, but I don't think the concept of a realistic (or just internally consistent) economy was invented by those games. So given that Elite does have economies, I think it'd be the default to assume that they wanted to do it realistically. I definitely don't think we'll find a video from Braben talking about how they wanted to simulate the economy in an unrealistic manner.
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
Not necessarily, I think that is perhaps assuming a bit too much. And even if it was so the issue would still be what you may consider personally and anecdotally as "realistic". And which may differ from someone else´s view or FDEV´s view for that matter.
Elite has indeed some features that proxy basic economic behaviour such as prices dropping if you dump too much of a given commodity at high price etc. Reduced stocks when you draw too much of something. It has also built in price mark up and discount factors established by the relevant faction states (that can be influenced or used by players) boom, famine etc and which also could be considered as "realistic" from a certain point of view. All these constitute an "economy" system with cause and effect that can be manipulated by players, that can even be considered realistic depending on your personal bar for "realism", but still far from what X4 or EVE offer obviously.
I think this guy described it best
:There is a huge amount of "greys" between the "white" of EVE and X4 economies and the "black" of absolutely no economic concepts at all in a game. And we can spend hundreds of pages here discussing those degrees of "grey". Elite is indeed in one of those shades of grey and imo most likely intended like so since day 1 given the sheer size of the bubble and the fact Elite is multiplayer:
X4 economy can afford to get to its level of detail because it is a single player game and in a relatively limited environment. A multiplayer set up requiring player balance and much tighter exploit control in a “map” that is in the order of several tens of thousands of systems (bubble) and an order of magnitude or two larger than that in terms of individual stations and settlements like in Elite (that would all need to somehow interact realistically in a properly balanced way in an MMO) is a whole different beast. The closest you can get is probably EVE but for that effort over multiple years to develop, EVE does not have other features Elite has (flight and ship management in first person, planetary surface gameplay, stellar forge in a 1:1 scale and first person for example). Each developer dedicates more resources and develops further the aspects of the game it considers core. A realistic economy (as per X4 or EVE) does not seem to have ever been a core tenet of Elite.
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Yes we know, just like 6 years or so ago. Wake me up 6 years in the future maybe then you will have something past alpha ;D What an absolute joke, but am living it!
I was very excited back when Star Citizen did a big two hour presentation on their upcoming NPC-driven "real" economy. Unfortunately I don't think anything ever became of it. The theory of it though was pretty amazing. Your point stands, however, in that SC is of a much smaller scale than ED.
I also wonder how realistic an inter-galactic economy would be. This is the one thing about Eve that fascinates me (never played, but I am sometimes tempted). It has the closest thing to a real economy, since it's 100% player-based. And yet, it's not, because I don't believe it uses exhaustible resources or takes planet populations into account.
If I were more of an economist, I'd love to run a simulation that would look at how trade would actually work in a space-faring society with automation and unlimited resources. I bet it would be different that most approximations we see in sci-fi depictions. Maybe the future would be more utopian (ST-TNG) after all!
Speaking of automation, the idea that we're flying around as space-truckers itself probably a fantasy. Even today our supply missions to ISS are automated, and research is being done to automate the massive cargo ships that cruise our oceans.
Players quit playing ED to play SC due to ED being a buggy poor performing mess lacking in gameplay.
Its almost like a comedy script that writes itself.
I hope they all buy an Idris.
Its almost like a comedy script that writes itself.
I hope they all buy an Idris.
Like watching the folks in Cities:Skylines. Those folks put in a solid day of work! When I do ground conflicts in EDO, I sometimes follow along behind one of the AI troops, and when they issue orders or whatever, I follow along..would be great if they could board a ship, after a battle, and head back to the station etc. Maybe in 10 years?You don't have to be a fleet to affect the markets in X4. For example, if there is a shortage of hull parts that prevent me from buying a new ship (because there are no parts to build it), I can use a single trading ship to get those parts and transport them to the shipyard in need, which in turn allows the shipyard to proceed in building my new ship.
In contrast, I can patrol enemy space in my "submarine" ship, "sinking" enemy cargo ships, and this will have an effect, perhaps even a profound effect, on the enemy's supply chain.
In other words, I can affect markets as a single pilot who switches to an appropriate ship, just like I would in ED. But as viagero said, this would need to be adjusted for Elite due to the sheer scale of Elite. Even then, I as a single pilot should in theory be able to wreck or build the economy of a small 1000 person system, depending on my actions. I doubt I could single-handledly tank the economy of a system like Sol with billions of people spread over countless stations. X4 really doesn't take this into consideration - stations are independent entities not tied to the planets they orbit.
FWIW, I'm more interested in the idea that I can follow an NPC from one station to another in X4 and that NPC is actually doing something important, affecting the entire system. I'd love it if Elite would at least simulate this. For example, if I pull up the galaxy map and look at NPC trade routes, I should be able to then see actual real NPC traffic flying between these systems carrying the goods that are shown in those trade routes. That would go a LONG way to feed my immersion