Mission locations for on foot missions and economic influence for stations and ports.
Elite Dangerous | Colonisation Facilities & Markets
- Thread starter Paul_Crowther
- Start date
Hi,
thanks for information. Seems kinda counter-intuitive to natural systems and their weird economies. Could we get some further notes or another approach that is more natural`
Here are my notes on the topic:
I already left some notes on the lackluster documentation of system variables in the Pilot's Handbook. But today I want to just take a look at Markets/Economies for Stations.
Let us put up some ground assumptions, one might have when they first start to plan out their system (this is not how it is right now, but what I and probably a few others went into).
- Installations and Stations either produce commodities or provide a service (military, pirates, research)
- Productive stations have a primary economy type, while everything else starts as a colony economy.
- Stations are logistical hubs that collect and distribute resources to and from installations and surface facilities.
- Whatever logistics a stations provides is reflected in the secondary economic type or in case of colonies wholly substitutes the colony economy.
- Logistical routes are based on orbital relationships between stations and other installations.
Let's collect all installations and surface settlements in a list ordered by date of construction. This is our "sources" list. One for surface and one for orbital. And all we really care about is: Address of the Reference Body, Economy Type, Tier.
- Let's loop over every surface port in the system. Starting with the oldest.
- Find all surface sources that share the same body.
- Group sources by economy and sum up their tier value.
- Pick the group with the highest value. If there is a tie between two groups, pick the one with the oldest member.
- Remove from our source master list the oldest members in the chosen group as long as it would still will the previous competition.
- Add the economy type to the current surface port.
- If the surface port has a colony economy, repeat again for a competition between the remaining group and replace colony economy by the second winner.
- Repeat for every surface port.
- Now add all surface ports and all remaining surface sources to the list of orbital sources.
- Put all stations in a list called targets along with their reference body address as a lookup address
- Now repeat while the list of orbital sources is not empty.
- Loop over all targets starting with the longest lookup address, solving ties by oldest first.
- Find all sources with a address that is a subset of our current lookup address. So if Reference is A7, then we would include A7a to z
- As with a surface settlement try to find an economy type that the station currently lacks.
- Do so again if the station has the colony economy to replace it with.
- If a station has two different economy types, remove from the target list. Otherwise shorten the lookup address by one level for the next loop.
- If the target list is not empty while there are still sources left, repeat again, with all stations now having bigger search radius.
Now after determining market type. The size of demand and supply could be scaled by system values and or take into consideration each stations connected sources.
In a similar vein metal output could be determined by used sources extraction details.
Finally when it comes to Water and ELW these should provide boosts to a system value/a stations contribution to the system.
There a very straightforward algorithm that should be easy to implement and come naturally to everyone who looks at the system.
Now if you think your system is doing a better job, I would be more than happy to see an actual manual for it within the game. Because as of now, it is a mess.
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"on or around" This would include other orbital facilities.
so the question i have is this:
Are the player built systems the only ones abiding by these rules for what will be stocked where. The reason i ask is because the game built systems definitely do not. 1 example is Harness city (which stocks a lot of things including metals) in system Igboniu. It is a large station and the only thing orbiting a planet that is non landable which tells me non buildable.
This is where my confusion comes in. I try to build based on what the game has built.
Are the player built systems the only ones abiding by these rules for what will be stocked where. The reason i ask is because the game built systems definitely do not. 1 example is Harness city (which stocks a lot of things including metals) in system Igboniu. It is a large station and the only thing orbiting a planet that is non landable which tells me non buildable.
This is where my confusion comes in. I try to build based on what the game has built.
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Alright, as an experiment since we learned of how to influence a port's market, I had an ag center (orbital as the planet has no spaces) built in one of the orbit slots around the same planet as the original outpost.
I noticed it was finished today, thank you for the help, you know who you are. I was surprised it was finished so I ran over to see if any changes were yet evident.
Nada. The outpost just sells biowaste and gas still. However, the construction yard is still present in system (odd) so maybe the game hasn't yet registered that the ag center is done or its just bugged or it just takes a bit more time for the game to figure it all out.
I noticed it was finished today, thank you for the help, you know who you are. I was surprised it was finished so I ran over to see if any changes were yet evident.
Nada. The outpost just sells biowaste and gas still. However, the construction yard is still present in system (odd) so maybe the game hasn't yet registered that the ag center is done or its just bugged or it just takes a bit more time for the game to figure it all out.
I hope today's tick fixes your problem and a lot of other people's problems.
I feel like today's server maintenance will let me know whether to continue building or just give it up for a while. My Orbis didn't come online like it was supposed to last week so everything I've been building afterwards in system has had a big question mark hanging over it.
I kind of disagree with some of the recommendations for what is a very planned/customizable economy (connecting supply to markets manually). Even if it wasn't quite what people were expecting, it's very clear that being the architect of a system is not in any sense really owning the system, so controlling the flow of commodities of independent businesses/companies seems a bit nonsensical. But in the same vein, these outposts and installations, especially those without player landing pads, would reasonably want to do business at a nearby market in system instead of shipping them off to even a nearby system.
Giving producers a range of influence just based on distance from the nearest star (+ or—so many Ls) would be fairly reasonable, in my opinion (someone else can think about orbit paths and whatever). If you want to prevent stations from getting too stacked, slap a weight multiplier based on the distance from the market.
Then let the different stats of the system augment those effects (security increases range, tech level mitigates the loss of a long shipping lane, wealth and standard of living increase the commodities being conveyed by producers/affect market prices), and you have all the main things tied together.
System economy influence also makes no sense currently and doesn't seem to affect anything (from the little I know). Let the main economies of a system give some buffs or perks to the actual economies of that type. I enjoy a little hunt and scientific method in games, but even if the individual effects of bodies and outposts on an orbital is, perhaps, too complex for the minds of the bubble to truly predict and document, surely there has to be some surviving economists or analysts who can tell us at least in broad strokes what in the world commanders might expect to see in a wealthy vs poor system or high vs low standard of living system.
Currently, in my head there also seems to be the very silly situation where I believe many many colonized systems currently will be heading towards a military system economy, because they're pretty much the only way to get security up which is arguably the only stat right now with a tangible effect by raising the system's security level. While having militaristic colonies pop up everywhere sounds like fun for the goids, I think it's safe to say that's boring and not quite sustainable for expansions, cause this isn't just a temporary establishment of operations, these are permanent constructions now, as far as we know.
So in a couple months (or years, fingers crossed), as a player decides to stop in my military economy system of the other dozens for goods, they're going to dock with my orbital and find... just a bunch of veggies? Simply because the station was built with the single space farm in the other orbit, despite the handful of security stations and the dozen of relay stations in the system (Currently not quite sure what else to fill those extra orbitals honestly, so the plan is to just slap down more relays).
I really like colonization so far, despite everything, and poking at the new informational horizon has its appeal to me, but I would happily give some of that up if that's what it takes to make sure Trailblazers is the success it can/even should be. I'm not new to Elite, but I am to following its development and new content, so spare me some mercy and let me be a bit optimistic/hopeful about how this can go?
With all those words out of the way, more refinery options would be amazing (though I guess their rarity is part of their value) and a dismantling option would be an easy quick patch for so many problems right now (later on, could even make players put in work shipping or transporting civs for it and only update it on Thursday ticks to prevent constant shifting and disruption of economies).
EDIT: Also if you have a colony, a call to start collecting data as you can, I'm sure some of the colonization-focused factions are handling it in their discords but haven't personally found any place that's starting to coalesce the community's data so far. At least noting down the payouts for systems after Thursday's updates, and hopefully also noting things like stats (using that Colonization Planner floating around), population, and actual security level.
Giving producers a range of influence just based on distance from the nearest star (+ or—so many Ls) would be fairly reasonable, in my opinion (someone else can think about orbit paths and whatever). If you want to prevent stations from getting too stacked, slap a weight multiplier based on the distance from the market.
Then let the different stats of the system augment those effects (security increases range, tech level mitigates the loss of a long shipping lane, wealth and standard of living increase the commodities being conveyed by producers/affect market prices), and you have all the main things tied together.
System economy influence also makes no sense currently and doesn't seem to affect anything (from the little I know). Let the main economies of a system give some buffs or perks to the actual economies of that type. I enjoy a little hunt and scientific method in games, but even if the individual effects of bodies and outposts on an orbital is, perhaps, too complex for the minds of the bubble to truly predict and document, surely there has to be some surviving economists or analysts who can tell us at least in broad strokes what in the world commanders might expect to see in a wealthy vs poor system or high vs low standard of living system.
Currently, in my head there also seems to be the very silly situation where I believe many many colonized systems currently will be heading towards a military system economy, because they're pretty much the only way to get security up which is arguably the only stat right now with a tangible effect by raising the system's security level. While having militaristic colonies pop up everywhere sounds like fun for the goids, I think it's safe to say that's boring and not quite sustainable for expansions, cause this isn't just a temporary establishment of operations, these are permanent constructions now, as far as we know.
So in a couple months (or years, fingers crossed), as a player decides to stop in my military economy system of the other dozens for goods, they're going to dock with my orbital and find... just a bunch of veggies? Simply because the station was built with the single space farm in the other orbit, despite the handful of security stations and the dozen of relay stations in the system (Currently not quite sure what else to fill those extra orbitals honestly, so the plan is to just slap down more relays).
I really like colonization so far, despite everything, and poking at the new informational horizon has its appeal to me, but I would happily give some of that up if that's what it takes to make sure Trailblazers is the success it can/even should be. I'm not new to Elite, but I am to following its development and new content, so spare me some mercy and let me be a bit optimistic/hopeful about how this can go?
With all those words out of the way, more refinery options would be amazing (though I guess their rarity is part of their value) and a dismantling option would be an easy quick patch for so many problems right now (later on, could even make players put in work shipping or transporting civs for it and only update it on Thursday ticks to prevent constant shifting and disruption of economies).
EDIT: Also if you have a colony, a call to start collecting data as you can, I'm sure some of the colonization-focused factions are handling it in their discords but haven't personally found any place that's starting to coalesce the community's data so far. At least noting down the payouts for systems after Thursday's updates, and hopefully also noting things like stats (using that Colonization Planner floating around), population, and actual security level.
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I must admit i dont really understand how this economy malarky works. im hoping that this latest server coffee this morning will bring my completed stations on line and shed some light on this for me! One thing that puzzles me in particular is the relationships with moons and their parent planet and economies etc. Also think there should be some some of viable economic option for those systems with no planets and/or landable planets.
Ha, I've had a support ticket requesting a station move copied and pasted ready to go for a while now.
Nope. Still the leftover scaffolding construction yard. Actually looking at it, I have a lot of construction yards still hanging about. That means some of these have been around for a couple of weeks.
So its broken or we still don't understand how these work or both. 23-24k people in system waiting to be able to buy tacos here.
Hi
Well...
...It's only been a week since this topic was first posted up, I'm pretty sure the development team and representatives of Frontier will soon come back here and update us in this topic with some more useful information. ....
I agree....both!
Jack
Well...
...It's only been a week since this topic was first posted up, I'm pretty sure the development team and representatives of Frontier will soon come back here and update us in this topic with some more useful information. ....I agree....both!
Jack
I'm putting on hold my labrat system and probably gonna look for a new one while I await confirmation of either bug or intended design on new port/stations not being affected by previously accrued system bonuses / unlocks for supply/demand/prices/station services not applying.
I'm sussing and hopeful this is a bug, since another report is that people that build a station AFTER constructing eco influencers properly placed to change the eco of the newly made station are not applied. This sounds like it is a problem that has the same issue source. (insert here "only biowaste and hydrogen fuel" complaints)
The system itself that I have been madscientesting isn't great in terms of high build slot count on bodies individually speaking but a few good enough while I had a nice 60+ space and body construction slots total. While people have been trying to figure out somewhat what system attribute does what, it slowly shifted towards finding how economy proportion works and how, if possible find out how to make certain commodities become part of supply, ie CMM Composites. I just felt like dodging on purpose eco shifts (starter port has a garbage spot anyway, not to mention the fear of putting a space installation that might swoop station out of slot 0 as some have reported it happening to them with its meager 1 construction slot on the body it is tied to, so I don't want to gimp the starter port's eco shift when I decide to get to that) and focusing on the attributes increasing only.
If building order is idd a strategy and that this issue is not a bug, then I am sad to say in advance that, should anyone desire to fully optimize their system for all markets to have high values long term, they need to just pump up any possible place that will in the future need an eco influence or anything else that won't "burn" too many stats, meaning trying to increase any other stat that do not buff supply/demand/price or as little sacrificed as possible...
...this goes along hoping that upon bringing eco influence proportion afterwards for anyone currently building stuff with already wealth/dev stats high up somehow doesn't reset market to base start values with no proper positive modifiers upon eco shift(s), maybe at best, only accounting for the eco shift construction's system stat bonuses.
I'm sussing and hopeful this is a bug, since another report is that people that build a station AFTER constructing eco influencers properly placed to change the eco of the newly made station are not applied. This sounds like it is a problem that has the same issue source. (insert here "only biowaste and hydrogen fuel" complaints)
The system itself that I have been madscientesting isn't great in terms of high build slot count on bodies individually speaking but a few good enough while I had a nice 60+ space and body construction slots total. While people have been trying to figure out somewhat what system attribute does what, it slowly shifted towards finding how economy proportion works and how, if possible find out how to make certain commodities become part of supply, ie CMM Composites. I just felt like dodging on purpose eco shifts (starter port has a garbage spot anyway, not to mention the fear of putting a space installation that might swoop station out of slot 0 as some have reported it happening to them with its meager 1 construction slot on the body it is tied to, so I don't want to gimp the starter port's eco shift when I decide to get to that) and focusing on the attributes increasing only.
If building order is idd a strategy and that this issue is not a bug, then I am sad to say in advance that, should anyone desire to fully optimize their system for all markets to have high values long term, they need to just pump up any possible place that will in the future need an eco influence or anything else that won't "burn" too many stats, meaning trying to increase any other stat that do not buff supply/demand/price or as little sacrificed as possible...
...this goes along hoping that upon bringing eco influence proportion afterwards for anyone currently building stuff with already wealth/dev stats high up somehow doesn't reset market to base start values with no proper positive modifiers upon eco shift(s), maybe at best, only accounting for the eco shift construction's system stat bonuses.
I can definitely say not having the arms on the coriolis does not appear to impact the shipyard. Like your buddy, I built a coriolis as the first structure in my system Col 285 Sector TK-C B27-0. It came with everything but the cartographics out of the gate before the deployment was even finished.
Admittedly, the shipyard only carries a sidewinder and the three main imperial ships - courier, clipper, and cutter. The outfitting only carries grade E size 1 - 3 parts.
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I cannot confirm that topic - just today finished a Coriolis (secondary port in system) which turned out nicely - market as well....
it definetly took over System-Stats (has only one large Mining Settlement and an Industry-Hub on the surface below until now....
edit: UC greyed out, Vista will come online Thursday, Shipyard available and has up to the Anaconda for purchase. But i think that due to the system stats
That would be an interesting comparison. Since I purposefully kept Colony economies I'm wondering if the game would skip the stats somehow, while if I actually bothered have an eco shifted one, would it account for all value modifiers. To be more certain I would however need to do two different bodies with the exact same buildings and compare the firstly made, then the second and see if the markets are virtually the same (since there's small % variations). Another theory, would the SYSTEM eco need to be shifted to have the values properly updated to all markets? I still feel like this thing is more of a fluke somewhere if it's showing inconsistencies with other systems as reference, such as your example here.
I assume that your eco shifters were already placed? The two extra eco colonies I have made were a planetary t1 port and a commercial outpost. They cannot shift eco due to lack of slots (and I had a specific goal in mind that did not require me to have anything else at the time).
The last hopeful thinking for me would be that I need some attribute to reach a certain threshold for the other market landables to benefit from the entire system's "passive" bonuses. I cannot refrain from being doubtful however.
Can anyone tell me what this building produces and what it gives? Outpost Port: Scientific (porrima) I'm sitting through a translator, don't scold me too much
Yep that system previously was developed quite far to a prosperous Hightec...
But more on influences you find here - there you also find map and stats of my system