Elite Dangerous is not a sandbox

[Sisyphus]

That's a reasonable argument, and doesn't require us to agree definitions of wooly terms first

One of ED's core aesthetics is that you're a small part of a vast universe. That's quite unusual in a game, and means there won't be some of the things you'd see in a game built around mighty player-heroes. Not to say there's anything wrong with that sort of game, it's just not what Frontier are going for.

You know, I can see it from the other side of my argument: there is virtue in a little humility in game design. If players are forced to be a small part of a system, then that is a humbling experience, as compared to literally every game out there that pushes you in to become a Commander Shepard, out to save the entire universe single handedly! So yes, I like ED being "different" like that... but I would still be more ambitious!

 

[Ixnatifual]

Yes. My point precisely.

After some thinking I actually agree with Sisyphus that Elite isn't a sandbox game, but an open-world game. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[jabokai]

Either way, can't I start a discussion on the direction of the game? It is still in Alpha and not too late to do so.

If that's what you wanted to do, you should have come up with a better thread title and OP. Basically all you said is "If you want me to call ED a sandbox game I want crafting and territory control" which is confrontational. Why not start a thread saying "Suggested new features for ED - A, B, C", etc?

You started it!

 

[Sisyphus]

My impression of the original post is that there is some worry that if there is enough to do in Elite Dangerous.

That is slightly my worry as well. The real question is that once you have achieved what you wanted (which is the ship you wanted, no? ) then what is there to keep us interested in the game? The more sandbox elements (Empire building etc..) there is, the more longevity the game has.

Actually you are totally spot on! I would like more meaningful features added that can give you something other than combat and exploration to look forward to.

 

[JughedJones]

When someone is criticizing something, he is automatically labeled a troll.

This isn't true at all.

A troll is (among other things) someone who creates an argument that isn't there, then defends it with circular arguments and purposefully ignores reasonable explanations.

I'm not sure if this guy is doing this solely to get a rise out of ED fans, but he's trolling none-the-less.

 

[ScottGust]

!!!!! HAHA LMAO!!!! oh SYPHILIS, ur soooo funny

 

[Leo Sagan]

No you can't. In Eve you can: do some clicking and watch *A RUSSIAN BOT* fly your ship for you, do some clicking and watch *A RUSSIAN BOT* do combat for you, do some mining using the same method, trade, lag, craft stuff. Not that much when you think about it

There, fixed it for you

 

[Revolution Babii]

You know, everyone is going on about sandbox game design. Why can't we have ball pit game design?

 

[Sisyphus]

If that's what you wanted to do, you should have come up with a better thread title and OP. Basically all you said is "If you want me to call ED a sandbox game I want crafting and territory control" which is confrontational. Why not start a thread saying "Suggested new features for ED - A, B, C", etc?

You started it!

AH! So you disagree with my presentation, not the content!

 

[ScottGust]

AH! So you disagree with my presentation, not the content!

Its called Elite Syphilis, we all know what content were here for....

 

[jabokai]

AH! So you disagree with my presentation, not the content!

No, I disagree with your content too. I don't want crafting or territory control as those features will add nothing to my experience, and quite likely detract from it. But if you're going to start a discussion to propose something at least start the discussion on the right foot and then we "argue" sensibly. :smilie:

 

[JughedJones]

AH! So you disagree with my presentation, not the content!

Basically, because what you did was construct a strawman argument, then declare yourself the victor of said argument by justifying your own definitions.

It's a logical fallacy.

If you would have said: "I think we should have (a, b, and c) in the game, what do we think about it?" You would have had an entirely different conversation.

(One that I'm not sure you really want to have.)

 

[Sisyphus]

After some thinking I actually agree with Sisyphus that Elite isn't a sandbox game, but an open-world game. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

+1

Yes, the open world feature isn't a bad thing. It's a great thing! Though I would like ED to take the next step - give players more control over the meta-game.

One way would be to let groups of players trigger the kind of events that the devs have reserved for themselves - events that stablize or destabilize empires. I'm not talking about merely participating in those events, because that still requires the developers to trigger it. For example, PLAYERS should be allowed to cooperate together and bring about a plague that destroys all agriculture (or saves it!) and impact the strength of an empire... then players should be able to construct a huge fleet and attack that weakened empire.

Sandbox means letting us control the meta-game in this way. It may be a departure from the 1980s Elite... but it will be better this way.

 

[Sisyphus]

No, I disagree with your content too. I don't want crafting or territory control as those features will add nothing to my experience, and quite likely detract from it. But if you're going to start a discussion to propose something at least start the discussion on the right foot and then we "argue" sensibly. :smilie:

I don't think there was anything wrong in the way I started the discussion. If you have changed your mind about whether to engage in this discussion (instead of having a discussion about the discussion), then please contribute to what you think is a sandbox or is not, and whether ED fits that definition and whether it even should or should not.

 

[DoctorDanny]

I think that the tone of the original post was perhaps not the best way to raise this issue, but I kind of agree with the general sentiment.

Mind you, I'm premium beta so I haven't played anything besides the combat missions yet. Still, even now I can't stop thinking of ways that this game could be even better than it allready promises to be...

Multi crew capital ships... sounds fun and interesting (maybe akin to Guns of Icarus Online).
Trade Empire... Owning multiple assets, designating traderoutes and assigning patrolls. Colour me interested.
Planetary ownership... starting your own faction and 'governing' your own part of space (maybe something like mount&blade).. sure, why not.

The sandbox in Elite will be so frigging large (400.000.000.000 systems!!!) that in the end it should be possible to accomodate a large diversity in gamestyles. Something for everybody!

Oh, and of course... only 8 more days!

 

[Robert Maynard]

I don't think there was anything wrong in the way I started the discussion. If you have changed your mind about whether to engage in this discussion (instead of having a discussion about the discussion), then please contribute to what you think is a sandbox or is not, and whether ED fits that definition and whether it even should or should not.

Regardless of the genre in which this game sits, it is not about corporations clicking their way to galactic domination.

While you may think that the game requires these elements, a lot of others don't.

 

[devastat]

A troll is (among other things) someone who creates an argument that isn't there, then defends it with circular arguments and purposefully ignores reasonable explanations.

I feel that the original poster has a valid point here. He is worried that there might not be enough sandbox elements in the game to keep us interested in the long run. What is the problem here?

If you have nothing to add into the discussion, just stay out of it. It's just really tiring to see all these "he is a troll ignore him" posts in here and reminds me of a kindergarten.

 

[Andrew Sayers]

One way would be to let groups of players trigger the kind of events that the devs have reserved for themselves - events that stablize or destabilize empires. I'm not talking about merely participating in those events, because that still requires the developers to trigger it. For example, PLAYERS should be allowed to cooperate together and bring about a plague that destroys all agriculture (or saves it!) and impact the strength of an empire... then players should be able to construct a huge fleet and attack that weakened empire.

You might be interested in the "factions and causes" proposal, which deals with some of these issues. The related examples of system statuses discussion is also well worth a read to see what could be done with the system they're planning.

Don't get your hopes up for the initial release, but the game may well expand in the direction you describe.

 

[tooterfish]

AH! So you disagree with my presentation, not the content!

Maybe he disagrees with both?

By your own admission the definition is entirely arbitrary. EvE style crafting and territory control don't make a game a sandbox either, in my opinion.

The crux of your argument boils down to "I think Elite should be more like EvE". This whole sandbox debate just looks like an attempt to wrap your opinion in "fact" in an attempt to make it unassailable.

Having an opinion is fine, but what you're doing here is pretty disingenuous.

 

[Tobytyke1972]

+1
One way would be to let groups of players trigger the kind of events that the devs have reserved for themselves - events that stablize or destabilize empires. I'm not talking about merely participating in those events, because that still requires the developers to trigger it. For example, PLAYERS should be allowed to cooperate together and bring about a plague that destroys all agriculture (or saves it!) and impact the strength of an empire... then players should be able to construct a huge fleet and attack that weakened empire.

That is a different argument, which could be satisfied by mission. Say for example a mission is to destroy a ship which just happens to contact a member of the imperial family. This could intern start a war. Which is a way of showing small actions have larger effects in the universe (Butterfly effect).

This is a much better discussion about game content and mechanics than if the game is sandbox or not.