Elite Dangerous is not a sandbox

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The word sandbox is perhaps different to different people.

Certainly ED is a type of sandbox game, but yes it is not sandbox in terms of crafting.

The OP is a bit off in the analysis as it is like saying a steak knife is not very much a cutting thing as compared to a Swiss Army knife. But they are actually still both relevant for cutting, just different. And so to give +1 to various sandboxy properties is off the point.
 
I don't undertand how you're going to form player corperations or player empires in a game when you can multi-play with about 50 other players?

You're confusing a massive game with multi-player capabilities with an MMO
 
Until the Corporations and Empires have expanded out further pushing those of us who are looking for the "lone pilot making his way in the world" experience are pushed further and further out to the fringes until there's nowhere left to go. Then what?

First, how will corporations "push" you away? Are you saying every corporation will attack you for being solo? Or that when you're taking product X to station Y, corporations will somehow stop you? I think you could just ignore all those corporations and continue your practices.

Second, even if *somehow* corps/empires bully you personally, everywhere they exist - will they be ever present in 400 billion star systems? Won't there be enough space for you to go do your solo thing? I think there will.

Third: EVEN IF all 400 billion systems are totally dominated by evil empires and corps and they attack you every time they see you anywhere and everywhere (yeah right!), you could just switch on the solo experience and/or add a few friends to your group. You'll be happy, corp owners will be happy, Frontier will have more money from other players, they will add more content, you will become happier, etc. Everyone wins, no?
 
I don't undertand how you're going to form player corperations or player empires in a game when you can multi-play with about 50 other players?

You're confusing a massive game with multi-player capabilities with an MMO

Hey man, I wouldn't mind controlling a tiny sector with 2 friends! :p just let me make stuff like ships and weapons and operate stations, set the tax rate, make rules and regulations about what is tradable and not, etc.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
As for crafting, it wouldn't hurt anything, but I personally find personal crafting systems to be a pointless stopgap in obtaining items. Why spend all that time gathering four specific components to make a sword, when you could just kill a bandit and take his? Unless the crafted sword is better than the bandit's sword, but then you are saying that I have to craft to have the best items in the game. I dunno, I know a lot of people like that stuff, but I can't stand it.

Except.... Crafting only allows players to use recipes to create items that have been pre-defined by the developers. How does this add to the sandbox nature of a game by effectively following a script to make things?

Add to that the fact that there is no auction house and a largely NPC run economy - cornering the market is not going to be at all easy (if it is even possible).
 
The word sandbox is perhaps different to different people.

Certainly ED is a type of sandbox game, but yes it is not sandbox in terms of crafting.

The OP is a bit off in the analysis as it is like saying a steak knife is not very much a cutting thing as compared to a Swiss Army knife. But they are actually still both relevant for cutting, just different. And so to give +1 to various sandboxy properties is off the point.

Don't you think that it's more appropriate to say that a steak knife is limited in what it can do when compared to a swiss army knife, in that the swiss army knife is akin to "sandbox"? Therefore ED is not sandbox. It should be.
 
Well i tend to disagree. I think when a game is defined as a sanbox it means that you are not set on a preset path. Thats what a sandbox to me is. You have a game and you can do as you wish . now it may not mean you can do EVERYTHING you want. but it just means that you are free to explore as you wish and that is the case with Elite Dangerous.

and yes Eve has been called a "sanbox" but to be honest i find eve is a bit limiting you have set paths to get from one system to another (sure there are a few options) but in general you have to go from point a to point b etc. in Elite with jump drives you have a bubble of stars you can visit and therefor a bit more freedom of where to go and how to get there. there may not be massive PVP but that is not really the scope of Elite Dangerous

and yes you cant really produce items but that does not mean that wont come in the future it could....

but i think you are nit picking things a bit. Yes this is not eve online. but i find honestly eve online limiting at times due to the massive pvp influence in zero sec you really cannot enter zero sec even in a well armed battleship unless you are part of an alliance otherwise you have a good chance of getting blown up ... :p

I think the features in the game now will be fun enough...i think they are smart in not over doing it as in the case with X3 rebirth and trying to do SOO many things like walking in stations . constructing things, making your own stations etc etc. that they just made the states TOO HIGH that the entire game suffered from it. Elite Dangerous is mainly about exploration /trading and combat but is not the scope of station building or mass manufacturing or captial ship owning and for me thats ok.

i just want to be able to explore the galaxy and have fun doing so :). and not be limited by feeling like im boxed in

even with Eve Online,s 7,000 star systems you still feel a bit boxed in and with Elite Dangerous you wont. !
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Don't you think that it's more appropriate to say that a steak knife is limited in what it can do when compared to a swiss army knife, in that the swiss army knife is akin to "sandbox"? Therefore ED is not sandbox. It should be.

Read Hellhawk666's post above, especially the bit about complexity.

A steak knife is arguably a better blade than those on a Swiss Army Knife as it is less likely to fold back and cut the backs of your fingers. You may be able to successfully throw a steak knife - a Swiss Army Knife is more akin to a cosh in that respect.
 
Really? Because I am pretty sure Frontier said that the game won't allow players to build empires. Hence the NPC empires such as the Federation, etc...

They did. But EVE had NPC Empires too. And when it was new, player empires were just a bunch of people going to 0 sec space and saying this is ours.

Pretty sure you'll be able to do that in E : D, quite easily since almost all of the galaxy will not be controlled by any NPC power at all.

It might be a bit pointless, but you could still do it.
 
Te be honest, having read the OP, if that's what a sandbox is, then I don't want one, This is just about the only game there is with a genuine realistic 1:1 scale, allowing the whole thing to be completely manipulated by a few thousand players just makes a mockery of that.

Open world with freedom to go where you want and do what you want, but in a believable setting, that's what I want.
 
Interesting discussion.

I get that you are sincere in this position, or at least sincerely advancing the argument, but with respect the above is just a restatement of the OP.

For what it's worth I think it's more accurate to define "sandbox", freeform", "open-world" or any other such concept of gameplay by what it does not include.

Mass Effect, for example, is about as far away from a "sandbox" as you can get. Same goes for SWTOR or any other game that is essentially a directed adventure. However the more that restrictive play-by-rails activity is excluded in favour of providing a structure that can be manipulated by the players as and when they choose the more open the gameplay becomes, by definition.

We need to consider the simplest of games to get a sense of what freedom of play is all about. Noughts and crosses is a sandbox game - just an incredibly simple and limited one. Snakes and ladders is not - it's a directed adventure that relies on chance and no skill. Chess, go and bridge are elegant sandbox games, whereas many if not most complex board games are not.

Extrapolating from that basic division (choice and skill vs pre-determination and luck), Elite Dangerous can fairly be described as a sandboxy sort of game, as can a host of other computer games. Many straddle the divide as well - Fallout 3 has many freeform and non-mandatory elements to it, but in the end it has a storyline that must be followed so it not a sandbox game, even though it feels "open" and unrestricted when you play it.

The fact that a game may not cater for a given player controlled mechanic or variable has nothing to do with how sandboxy it is, but with how complex it is. What I hear you saying is that you find ED to be unnecessarily limited at the present time with regard to the scope of possible player activities, but that criticism, whilst entirely valid, is not sufficient to disqualify it from being a "sandbox" or to allow evaluation of its degree of "sandboxyness" - it only defines its degree of complexity.

If you look at the list of games and features you listed the significant thing is that they all share two common elements: open world and no physical limitations. In other words the fact that ED is set within an enormous game world, does not contain a storyline that must be followed to a conclusion, and has no restriction on choice of activity at any time is sufficient to establish it as a sandbox-type game.

Impressive argument. Seriously.

However, let me poke a few holes:

While I think it's difficult to argue against the way you differentiate between sandbox and not sandbox (making a boolean type argument), I still think that you are missing a key part of the analysis:

1- there are many games out there that are more "sandbox" than others. For example, Starbound is an open world, procedurally generated 2d side scroller that also has crafting in the sense of minecraft. Surely that is more sandbox like than say, Skyrim, which is also open world and has limited crafting. The reason why I forwarded the sliding scale argument is to encompass the many different definitions of sandbox that everyone was individually advocating. The sliding scale definition allows everyone to add their two cents to the analysis of whether ED is more or less sandboxy, while giving a framework for comparison with other games.

2- I think you are correct that the two essential features of a sandbox are an open world and a non-linear (non-story driven) outcome. However, identifying essential features does not mean they are SUFFICIENT to define a game as sandbox. I think the features are necessary to separate sandbox-like games from Mario Brothers type games, but they are not enough because even space simulations can have sandbox-like features but not be sandbox themselves. ED is one such example, Entropy (small steam game) is another.

I think my sliding scale definition, by allowing game comparisons, is an apt metaphor for the game play experience that players feel when they play a true sandbox game, vs a game that has a few features similar to a sandbox.
 
So then, why don't you create an IP, write some fluff, come up with a backstory, and model up some capital ships, and take your idea to Kickstarter to see if anyone else wants to realise your vision of the ideal game?

I'll throw in $20
 

Lestat

Banned
Question for you Sisyphus. What defines crafting for you?

All I see in Skyrim on the main 244 quests once you are done all is left is crafting. If you did all Winterhold quests there no more quests there. Same with Solitude or any other quests in Skryim with or with out the addon. Your stuck crafting in the same old Mines waiting for them to respawn :S. How that a good sandbox. Hitting all the old Mines.

At least with Elite. If I find a area I like I can stay there and do what I do best. Maybe change that area or try to explore all 400,000,000,000 stars.

Quests can come and go randomly and I can be a passenger liner, Legal non legal trader, Pirate, Bounty Hunter, Miner, Scavenger and Explorer. Or a combo of each. I am not stuck in one small Map like Skyrim.

One thing I like to point out about Crafting in any MMO or Sandbox game. There always one item that the best and everyone following that path to make that one item. So if everyone trying to make that one weapon. How is it a sandbox game.
 
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