Elite Dangerous is not a sandbox

[Sisyphus]

I will disagree with the OP wholeheartedly.

1) Crafting... I would argue that crafting exists in Elite in the same way that weapon crafting exists in Skyrim. In Skyrim there are let's say 100 predefined weapons. Crafting then involves applying characteristics and magical attributes to the weapon to make it unique and deal a certain amount of damage. You can then also name your weapon. But you cannot invent a completely new type of weapon, shape it using some tools in the game creating a completely unique 3D mesh. If this is the benchmark for sandboxiness then Elite fares pretty well. In Elite you choose from a number of types of ships (ok you don't build it - I'll grant you that), you give it a name, you make it unique by outfitting it with weapons, sensors, beacons and other devices. In future version you might even apply custom decals and such. This is pretty sandbox-y if you ask me.

2) Market manipulation. Player influenced market fluctuations exist in Elite as well. Granted a single player cannot influence the market as much as his or her ego would want, but, if anything, this is more realistic and even more sandbox-y. Organize a group of a 1000 players with Lakon 9s to synchronize their trading and you might make a dent in the game market. Just like in real life, to make changes on a macro scale, you need to be a charismatic and influential leader, not just have delusions of grandeur and "fleet" of your own ships earned through pay-to-win or by playing 24/7.

3) No player driven empires/capital ships. Same as previous point. This isn't a megalomaniac strategy game, this is a pilot/spaceship simulator. You can have an empire only by allying yourself with many other players.

4) Career options. You list 3 but I can think of a number of other ones: Search/rescue, transport, covert ops/intelligence gathering, mining, race participant. These are just some off the top of my head that I know existed in previous versions of Elite and would most likely make it into ED as well. Ultimately, there is no way of knowing right now how many more career paths will exist in the game and you will never be limited to just one career either.

The way you define crafting, even battle field 4 would be a sandbox then because you can equip lots of different kinds of weapons. In skyrim, on the other hand, you could give weapons custom abilities and THEN equip them. In ED, you can only equip stuff available to you, just like in Battle Field 4.
And BF4 is not sandboxy at all, definitely not in this aspect.

Market influence is not the same as market control. The more control you have over the game, the more freedom you have to play the game the way you like. Market influence is nowhere close. And I see your point about individual egos controlling markets - that doesn't need to happen - I would like to see something like the following: I come across an agricultural system, I notice that XYZ empire is expanding and will need to pass through this system, so i decide to go mine fuel, craft ammo, etc and sell it at the station at a price I choose. NO GRIEFING here, but it's still more sandboxy! And it's not megalomaniacal (although that can be fun too.. who hasn't played civilization!??) - it's a small profit, earned the way I like. The way ED is set up right now, this is not possible to do.

As for your 4th point: covert ops? Like reporting on noticed fleet movements? That sounds so cool until you realize that you relaying the information is useless until the developers decide to use it to create an event! If they don't then you've added nothing to the game or even to your own gameplay experience. Let me know if you meant something else...

 

[Seonid]

what about other features such as crafting ships and weapons? What about a player dependent economy? Not merely a player influenced economy? Those would go some way to add hours to gameplay. (sandbox elements)

The previous games had none of that and I played them for years. Everything I have heard DB say in interviews and dev diaries is that ED will not contain the game elements you are looking for. This is not Blizzard/Activision with a board who think on-line gaming is Farmville and the Internet is Google, it's someone creating the last version of Elite in the way that they want. Perhaps you might want to look elsewhere?

 

[Sisyphus]

It's well known that Wiki is not always right.

Given that limitation then the definition of a sandbox game is as follows:

LINK


The examples you gave of Skyrim, AD&D*, EVE and ED, only Skyrim could be classed as a sandbox game due to the editor that you can use to manipulate the world. All the others you mentioned are "open world" games with rules and boundaries. Better examples of sand-box games would be Minecraft & Space Engineers.

Your definition IMO of a sand-box game then is not correct.

I don't class ED as a sandbox game but an open-ended game where, within the confines of the rules, you're free to do what you want. You can't manipulate the galaxy (move planets around) which means it's not strictly a sandbox game.

The only important part to me though is simply "Is ED fun to play" as at the end of the day how you class it is not as important as whether you enjoy playing it or not.




*I believe you were talking about the RPG which isn't a video game but a set of rules that a GM uses as a framework to set the scene for players

While that's a strict definition of sandbox that excludes ED from being classified as a sandbox game, I must submit that giving us the ability to change the world around us doesn't have to be in terms of a game editor only; it can be that we craft and sell small ammo.. something simple like that can give us a lot of playing flexibility. And really, what's wrong with selling ammo at competitive prices? Does it ruin the game for anyone?

 

[Zvanya]

OK, it's not a sandbox game. Can we go now?

 

[Mu77ley]

Your definition IMO of a sand-box game then is not correct.

Exactly.

Garry's Mod is a sandbox, EVE is just spaceship top trumps crossed with Excel and a very tedious "politics" simulator.

 

[Herik]

Honest question... So what?

NoCarrier; It's what he feels is so important to us; also his 'Sisy' sliding scale..

 

[Sisyphus]

The previous games had none of that and I played them for years. Everything I have heard DB say in interviews and dev diaries is that ED will not contain the game elements you are looking for. This is not Blizzard/Activision with a board who think on-line gaming is Farmville and the Internet is Google, it's someone creating the last version of Elite in the way that they want. Perhaps you might want to look elsewhere?

The game isn't finished yet. And even if the devs don't listen, I still have a right to request features. Right?

 

[Bosie]

OK, it's not a sandbox game. Can we go now?

But I just got my bucket and spade back!

In all honesty, who cares what label ED has as long as it delivers? So far it has.

 

[Seonid]

The game isn't finished yet. And even if the devs don't listen, I still have a right to request features. Right?

Of course, I'm struggling to see where I said otherwise, it's like PoE all over again.

 

[Sisyphus]

Of course, I'm struggling to see where I said otherwise, it's like PoE all over again.

You said: "Perhaps you might want to look elsewhere? "

So you suggested I look for other games instead of making suggestions here... hence I said nope, I have a right to say stuff here.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

While that's a strict definition of sandbox that excludes ED from being classified as a sandbox game, I must submit that giving us the ability to change the world around us doesn't have to be in terms of a game editor only; it can be that we craft and sell small ammo.

Understood - You would like some form of crafting for ED.

The problem you're going to face with your arguments though is that "Elite" wasn't that kind of game. FD are keen to stick to the lore of Elite and in that universe you're a pilot flying a space ship relying upon others to maintain it. It wouldn't make sense then for you, as a pilot, to be able to make your own ammo in the same sense that combat pilots of today can't either.

However, don't give up just yet as I know one thing : crafting in the way you mean is not on the table right now and definitely won't be in release. That's not to say that at some point in the future FD decide to add this feature in - they have given some hints that this feature is on the table (which gives me hope) just not now

 

[Sisyphus]

Folks, while this has been entertaining, I must depart. Please continue the discussion - I'll be sure to reply to the respectful comments when I return.

 

[Herik]

My Story in Elite and Frontier (and mainly in FFE) was my own. My search for Earth in Elite, my continuous trade runs to Barnards Star and my attempts at exploring the galaxy in Frontier and FFE were my stories. In my head. With no limitations on them.

In other games, my story is a variation on a very select theme and the ending is the same.

In the Elite series my story was unique to me. It was only mine, because Elite was my sandbox.

Ahh...yes, so true; Our own stories make our sandbox...

 

[1984Softy]

I disagree with your point allocation for many reasons, but most of all because:

1- you just did a "+lots" points to ED, meanwhile calling the numbers *I* assigned as reflecting subjective bias! Surely...

2- you just described the mechanics of moving about in a future downloadable content pack for ED, as if that is a sandbox like feature.

3- Your reference to "healer" and other minor things you can do: these do not give you control over gameplay and the meta-game at all - one feature in sandbox games in the sliding scale.

Meta gaming is a term people use now that used to be called cheating. I seriously hope that this game will never allow any player or group of players to use the limitations or technical aspects of the game in order to give themselves an advantage over other players.

So do you mind if it offers other features too, to make more people happy? Or must it be that only you should be satisfied and even if adding more features takes nothing away from your happiness, you would rather it not be added because your desire has been fulfilled?

This game does not need to make more people happy. It is intended to make Elite players and it's creator happy. And that it is doing quite well thank you very much.

Okay, so how exactly would corporations "dominate" in a way that would push individuals away? You would still be able to trade, explore and fight. How would each of these three things be negatively affected for you? (I'm just trying to understand how you see this developing...)

and how will corporations dominate the massive galaxy?

Okay imagine the 10,000 so called PVPers from Eve all decide to play ED. They then go about claiming all sectors in a ring around the starting sectors of this game.
Then we have a 400 billion star system game where at least half of the server population has no chance to get out of the 100 or so starter systems.
Again no thank you. If you want to play Eve with a joystick ask CCP to finish Valkerie or whatever it was called.

Elite is was and I hope always will be a game where one player with one ship could go anywhere and do anything that is possible to do in the game. Not in a Meta game, and not controlling what other players can do in the game.

Is it sandbox? Who cares? Is it open world? Yes! David Braben invented open world.

I just have to say it.
*waves hand* This is not the game you are looking for.

 

[Gibbonici]

Perhaps you are right... if so, then let's drop the idea for empire building (for the sake of the argument) - what about other features such as crafting ships and weapons? What about a player dependent economy? Not merely a player influenced economy? Those would go some way to add hours to gameplay. (sandbox elements)

The thing to remember is that ED doesn't cast the players as the primary force in its universe. Player dependent economy will never be a part of it because the game has a thriving NPC population which is as much a part of the background simulation as players are. Remember, in Elite we are little fish swimming in a big pond. We're never going to grow up to be sharks. We're never going to be in a position to challenge the centuries-old NPC corporations that are in the game. They are part of the water we swim through.

From everything that FD have said about the future direction of the game, there'll be at least as much horizontal progression (for want of a better word) of activity as vertical.

Crafting ships and weapons might be possible down the line, but I doubt it'll work like it does in Eve or on the same scale. Similarly DB has said he likes the idea of us being able to build settlements (note the word settlement, not planet dominating city ), so that's a possibility too.

I think the big thing here is that ED is taking a very different approach to other open-world, sandbox games in that it is based around a dynamic background simulation that can be influenced but not controlled by players. That background simulation will also be creating content on the fly based on all kinds of factors, including player influences. There's going to be an awful lot of emergent gameplay that comes out of that, and it's impractical to predict how the dynamics will work out.

Obviously, the ED that's released won't be the same ED that's around in 5 years time, but we can't really predict (or demand) what features the game will have then. It's short-sighted to expect it to develop along the same lines as established games, when the gameplay that emerges will make unforeseen and innovative new features possible - or make standard features unworkable.

I think a lot of the resistance to including established features in ED comes from this, and it doesn't mean that everybody is against ED changing ever. A lot of it is wait and see, and I'm pretty sure FD are taking the same approach regarding future expansions.

 

[Teefur]

You said: "Perhaps you might want to look elsewhere? "

So you suggested I look for other games instead of making suggestions here... hence I said nope, I have a right to say stuff here.

Of course you have a right to say stuff here, but you're more likely to find the features you're looking for in other games.

 

[Herik]

Me too I'm sure it's going to be marvelous. I'm just hoping that it's gonna be more than 30h marvelous

I played the original Elite for hundreds of hours;...I have no problem here.

 

[Phaedra]

I think the big thing here is that ED is taking a very different approach to other open-world, sandbox games in that it is based around a dynamic background simulation that can be influenced but not controlled by players. That background simulation will also be creating content on the fly based on all kinds of factors, including player influences. There's going to be an awful lot of emergent gameplay that comes out of that, and it's impractical to predict how the dynamics will work out.

This is an important point. It is unrealistic to expect to have the same elements working in the same ways as other MMOs when Elite is taking a very different approach with the dynamic background simulation. This doesn't mean that some of the elements of traditional MMOs can't at some point in the future be included, but this has to be done in a way that complements, rather than undermines, the model that drives key elements of the game.

 

[Evilroco]

I would respectfully ask that the OP reads this Techopedia definition of "Sandbox"

:http://www.techopedia.com/definition/3952/sandbox-gaming

the last line of their definition reads

"A sandbox game is also known as an open-world or free-roaming game."

I hope that he can understand why many peoples idea of sandbox differ to his and hope he enjoys E D when it's released.

I also think that many of the more "sandboxy" features he desires will appear as the game grows in the future SPL and FP expansions.

 

[Col. Cherryman]

I loved idea of Elite:Frontier... never ending world
after years just started playing EVE, because of space ships.
When I discovered rising of new Frontier E: D ...
just quit from EVE cause I prefer Never Ending World not a "little human sheeet box"
it's not about the game it's all about people.
I know EVE very well .. I can say "I was there"
So, When I hear about sandbox, it's make me laugh ...