Elite Dangerous is not a sandbox

Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
A couple of things. Really important.

1. What the game genre or niche is called is irrelevant. I think that what we all want is a good and immersive game.

2. I love EvE online, and have been playing and following that game for years on-off. If you judge EVE online with ED, you will find out that ED@launch will be a lot more "sandboxy" than EVE was in 2003. This is not an opinion but a fact.

...and after 10 years of active development, ED might be more "sandboxy" than EvE is right now.

So...what exactly are we arguing about? :D
 
add all the features that the op thinks makes a game 'sandbox' and you will end up with something like this:

sandbox.jpg


crowded, full of toys but with very few players
 

danjo

Banned
In a sandbox game you can craft, you can manipulate the market by embargos, dumping on the market, can fly capital ships, can construct your own items, weapons, ships, etc.

Right now the market value barely changes, even with a ton of money used to move product. I understand that this feature is supposed to become more "sandboxy" later on, but it isn't now.

ED is similar to sandbox games in that it doesn't have a predifined objective and that trading will be open ended. However, you are not ever going to meet more than 32 players in your game, so you can't really do massive pvp the way you can in a true sandbox like EVE.

Until ED fixes the market to make it more reliant on players, adds crafting, custom weapons, custom ships, allows players to own and operate sectors of space, etc, there is no way to consider it a true sandbox game.

At most ED has a few sandbox elements - you can be a pirate, a trader, an explorer or bounty hunter.

But that's only 4 things to do! More like 3, if you consider the fact that piracy and bounty hunting both involve practically the same thing: combat.

At this point, ED is more of a space combat simulation with some trading. Exploring is one small sandbox element, but not enough to make this game a true sandbox.

Wish it were a true sandbox, though.

____

After reviewing the discussion here, it seems the problem is in defining what "sandbox" means. I posted the following definition somewhere in this thread, but here it is upfront for newcomers:

Sandbox is a genre that is not a boolean (neither simply "true" or "false"), but it is a collection of features, which when weighed in total, demonstrates HOW MUCH "sandboxy" a game is, in the SLIDING scale of "sandbox-iness". :p

For example, if a game is open world, that's +1 to sandboxiness, if it also has crafting, another +1, etc.

This way everyone's definition of sandbox is included, no one is left out and we can analyze how much a game is sandbox like, instead of whether it is or is not a sandbox in the absolute sense.

Hopefully that can get everyone on board to analyzing ED and move away from fruitless debates on what constitutes sandbox.

Applying this definition to Skyrim:

Open world: +1
Crafting (limited but it's there): +1
No physical limitations of where you can travel (no invisible glass walls, as for example, in Elder Scroll Online!): +1
No class restrictions (that is, are not forced to choose only warrior OR mage OR thief, etc): +1
Good/evil/neutral choice: +1

Total points: 5 points.

Applying it to Advanced Dungeon and Dragons:

+1 to everything:
Crafting, no physical limitations, no class restrictions (in latest DnD, I believe), limitless character choices, etc. You get the point.

Total points: +infinity (because it's not a video game. I'm just using it as a demonstrable example of an extreme)

Apply it to Eve:
No physical limitations: +1
Open world: +1
Crafting: +1
good/evil/neutral character role playing: +1
can build ships that signficantly impact universal politics: +1 (I want to give this a +10, but that's my personal bias!)
Completely (or almost completely) player driven market: +1
Meta-gaming (such as making alliances, secret alliances, playing politics within player groups, etc): +1
Player owned and controlled empires: +1 (again, deserves a +100 in my opinion)
Can pursue variety of careers/roles: +1

Total points: 7

Apply it to ED:

No physical limitations: +1
Open world: +1
No crafting: 0 points
good/evil/neutral character role playing: +1
No player driven market (only a slight influence): 0
No player empires: 0
Can pursue 3 careers: +1 (combat, trading, exploration only... don't think it deserves a +1 when compared to other games' career paths, but will give it 1 point anyways)

Total points: 4.
____


In any case, this isn't a comprehensive analysis of all features of each game, it's only an example of how to do the analysis without bickering over definitions.

this guys thinks games were only just invented in his experience - which seems like the last 10 years - from his excellent research. btw - you get points for making me laugh at you.

my friend; games have been around a lot longer than that.

elite is 30 years old AND defined a genre before clones came along like WCseries, X series, eve is just a far cry and its a LOL ~ cannot compare except it has space!

<Moderation Edit: Comment Removed>


[here a tip]
this is a modern day remake of a classic game. its not trying to be anything else.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
This thread has brought up a number of interesting issues, but many of them have been raised before:

  • the devs floated the idea of crafting in the mining proposal, but haven't prioritised it because it doesn't speak to the game's core aesthetics as clearly as the umpteen other things on their plate
  • as well as mining, players that don't want to trade, fight or explore can salvage, smuggle or transport passengers - although these include aspects of the other roles, they each have unique features to make them interesting in their own right
  • the background simulation will be strongly influenced by player behaviour. In fact this was discussed as far back as Dev Diary 2, and the proposals I mentioned earlier (factions and causes and examples of system statuses) provide more detail about what Frontier are planning
  • a recent thread discussed the reasons people play games - I wrote the OP and argued that dominance is only one of eight core desires people fulfill when playing games
  • the community thoroughly discussed clans and corporations a while back, and went into greater detail about many of their strengths and weaknesses
Frontier's core question is always "how do we make this game better?". People seeking to influence the development of the game are likely to have more success if they give specific answers to that question in the threads above, preferably after reading enough of the thread to see roughly where the argument is
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
So what you are first saying with this is that my thoughts and opinions are worth much less than a Kickstarter backer? Ok as of this moment you might have a point, but after the 31st May I'd disagree. Just because I couldn't financially back the game earlier, doesn't mean I'm not as invested in it emotionally as a kickstarter backer.

And after the release of the game even more so - back on Kickstarter doesn't make that person a shareholder, more of a donator - and at no point here should Frontier/DB be made to feel bad by a small group of people because some of them don't like a decision they made.

Apologies, my post was not intended to infer that when a backer became a backer should have any influence in the weight given to their opinions nor imply that it relates to emotional investment in the game . Rather that the development of the game probably would not have started if the Kickstarter had not been successful - it was successful of course and Frontier have an obligation to deliver the game they pitched, so the game to be delivered should be broadly as described in the Kickstarter. The number of Kickstarter backers is not small, unless you consider 25,681 to be so.

Further developments of the game (to be released after the first release) were also discussed during the Kickstarter - backers also have a reasonable expectation that these will be implemented in the form that they were described.

People joining after the Kickstarter had the benefit of a pretty clear vision of what the game is going to be - every new purchase is good for the game's funding.

So, I see Frontier's obligation to the Kickstarter backers extending significantly past the release of the game itself.
 

Ian Phillips

Volunteer Moderator
In EVE, (a non-minecraft type game), you can truly do anything.

Really? You can go big game hunting in EVE? Eve has the whole galaxy as it's play area (talking about limitations)? Saying that you can't fly <insert type of spaceship here> therefore it isn't sandbox is arbitrary.

Can you ride motorbikes in EVE? In Skyrim? No, because they don't fit in the game, It doesn't make them 'Sandbox' or 'Not sandbox'.
 
Last edited:
Hmm, I find myself agreeing with the basic sentiment of the OP, ED is not a sandbox game rather a 'free form' or 'open world' game.
 
My true sandbox experience as a child, involved the discovery of hidden cat poop. Sometimes it gets a bit too realistic. ;)
 
Elite Dangerous is not a sandbox

I suppose until it is finished and in all our hands it is not possible to be 100% correct on this.

However, the Elite series of games, as you can read up on here:

http://www.mobygames.com/game-group/elite-series

Have always been classed as games that were not 'on rails', so ergo were more 'sandbox' in nature. There are no levels, no set paths the game forces on you (outside of the games actual limits to simulate something).

Probably i would call them 'free-form player choice driven exploration adventures', but 'Sandbox' is much shorter and an industry standard for describing games that are not 'on-rails'. And the definition of what a sandbox game is or is not is much more varied than the OP gave.

Here are some links to other games some consider 'sandbox', that vary from the OP's narrow description:

http://gamingbolt.com/top-7-sandbox-games-of-all-time

http://www.listal.com/list/sandbox-games

http://www.sandbox-games.net/games/

http://www.giantbomb.com/sandbox/3015-453/games/

Shock horror, Elite Dangerous is on that last link! But not that much of a shock for those that have known and played the game over the last 20+ years.

I hold Elite (all versions) alongside Daggerfall and other 'not on rails' games, where you are free to go where you want and do what you want, in a time and method of your choosing, to be 'sandbox' enough. Elite is a large slice of rpg also, but mostly in your mind as you construct your adventure from the gameplay, which is 'free' and 'open' compared to many other games.

'Sandbox' is a good enough term to me, to describe some of what the Elite games are (and i've been playing and making games for 20 years).

Now what was the first sandbox game? That is a more difficult question, but this link shows that it is not a term that has only existed for 10 years to describe a certain type of game:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.120501-The-First-Sandbox-game

I would consider Elite to be up there in relation to being the first sandbox game, or maybe something like M.U.D?

You can also look at this link as it is about 'Open World' games but covers sandbox too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_world
 
Last edited:
You cannot create planets in EVE ? You cannot make new systems , new jump gates ? How then its a sandbox ? :p
You cannot fly ponnys even, how rude, and there is no way of drinking rum while doin so :S
 
Sandbox doesn't define your influence as player. In ED, influence of single human pilot is very tiny, as it suppose to be if we take into account rest of the universe. True, that removes any significant decision making powers from him, but empowers player groups, or even subsocieties of player base.

If we use regular backyard sandbox as analogy, then instead of being kid with superbuilding tools little red shovel and blue bucket, you are an ant in ED sandbox. Alone you can't do much, but together...well, Garfield knows what I am talking about ;)

As you said, it's not your type of sandbox, and that's understandable. ED will pretty much dismiss egocentric dendencies previous decade of games supported - me, me, me in the center of the galaxy. No, you are a dust. Potent dust, but still...a dust. Now, where you go from here and what you can achieve...will you spearhead rescue op or humanitarian aid support...will you bring your friends along to help sway systems to one side or another...it's all up to you. Ohhh yeah, it's a long term game. Crafting and building ship? Been there, done that.
 
I declare that Elite: Dangerous is not a sandbox. It has no sand in it for a start. Totally not a sandbox.

It didn't come in a box, either. HAH! Gotcha. Totally not a sandbox. Come on FD! Get your facts straight.

It's totally not a game either! IT'S AN ALPHA! Double HAH!

Progress is totally lost every time the meddlesome nitwits at FD decide to release a new alpha with new and better features! Triple HAH!

We've been totally duped, and the sooner you all realise that, the better!
 
I declare that Elite: Dangerous is not a sandbox. It has no sand in it for a start. Totally not a sandbox.

It didn't come in a box, either. HAH! Gotcha. Totally not a sandbox. Come on FD! Get your facts straight.

It's totally not a game either! IT'S AN ALPHA! Double HAH!

Progress is totally lost every time the meddlesome nitwits at FD decide to release a new alpha with new and better features! Triple HAH!

We've been totally duped, and the sooner you all realise that, the better!

Inspector Dim? :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLplQWB2S_8
 
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom