Elite Dangerous & Keyboard + Mouse Bias

[Flimley]

Your “D” Sir, is indeed quite big. ...But, is it not massive. [haha]

Flimley

 

[Gully Foyle]

I don't think balancing is necessary OP.

I use a controller for SRV, the TM stick for banging around space and FA off mouseflight for the sheer screaming hell of it for PvP.

Then there's our buckyballers with everything imagined and 3 sheets to the wind.

 

[Frenotx]

This part is totally wrong though. I don't know what you have in mind but speaking from experience as a high-end PvPer, the flight model is actually very relevant.
I will assume you think about reversky which i hate because it is cheap flying but it is viable and effective in 1v1 only because shields and skill boosters are way too OP.

One of the core aspects of the flight model is the blue zone. The blue zone means you're constantly having you juggle the trade-off of speed OR maneuverability. Now look at and recent fight between experienced PvP pilots. How much time is spent in the blue zone? Basically none. Boosting allows you to temporarily ignore that extremely important aspect of the flight model and have both maximum speed AND maximum maneuverability. FA-off and boosting CONSTANTLY allows you to throw that mechanics out the window entirely. Speed management and careful position control (the things HOTAS or dual stick setups excel at) no longer matter in the slightest. Instead, combat is all about constant boosting, bouncing around as wildly as possible at max speed in FA-off (something all-or-nothing inputs on a keyboard are fine for), and carefully controlling the wobbly aim of FA-off (something relative mouse controls are way better at than joysticks).

Just think of one of the biggest advantages of a HOTAS: analogue throttle control. How much utility does that offer in a modern PvP fight? 0. Ships are either at full throttle spamming boost, or occasionally at 0 or full reverse during a slide. There's no concern about strategic speed management to have just enough maneuverability for the intended maneuver without giving up too much speed. There's no concern about making sure you go slow enough to not overshoot your target. Constant boost availability makes all that irrelevant.

What's the biggest advantage of a dual stick setup? Analogue lateral thruster control. Very helpful in close range dogfights where you're battling for position. Made 100% irrelevant by constant boosting. If you carefully position yourself in your opponent's blind spot, they'll just FA-off boost flip away. You have to boost too to keep up with them, which means now you're way above your max speed. You know what quits working well above max speed? Lateral thrusters and careful position control. Unless you're boosting of course, but at that point controls beyond all-or-nothing are superfluous, so a keyboard works fine.

Boosting temporarily makes the advantages of stick-based controls irrelevant. FA-off allows you to extend that a bit. Constant boosting and FA-off allow you to permanently ignore all that. All that's left is fine aim in FA-off, which is where relative mouse controls shine the brightest, and joysticks struggle the hardest.

 

[Frenotx]

You guys get it.

Drones require no or almost no rapid or fine precision input because they are not flown directly. In fact, 'direct' flight is pretty much gone everywhere.

What actually happens is this: the computer listens to the slow and clumsy inputs of the mammal, works out what said mammal probably wants the vehicle to do, compares that to what the vehicle can do, compares that to what the vehicle should do, and enacts a movement that best approximates those three things into something sensible.

Precisely the same happens in the most modern fast combat jets with the pilot onboard.

Oh, and incidentally, unarmed drones, which have the same or similar flight to the armed versions but fewer inputs, are flown with an Xbox controller.

Put another way: the only reason legacy control systems like joysticks are in use is because the mediation of the AI means that the control system doesn't really matter any more.

If drone pilots had to aim fixed rail guns manually at moving targets ... they'd swiftly be asking for a control system that wasn't designed a hundred years ago for moving a cable.

If Baron Richthofen, who had to aim his own guns, had had access to something better than large things attached to cables, like a few tiny controls he could have manipulated using the parts of his body evolved for the finest possible control (his fingers) I'm willing to bet he would have taken it, rather than using his thighs and other large yet imprecise muscles.

Oh, and astronauts use tiny fingertip controls for moving themselves in EVA and basically anything.

Fingers, guys, fingers. Sorry but you can't defeat 2,000,000 years of evolution via a romantic attachment to early 20th century arm'n'leg hardware designed to move cables. Darts are not thrown with thighs. Oil paintings are not painted with wrists or shoulders. We are surgeons, not butchers.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I totally get the fun and challenge aspect to using a HOTAS and all power to those who do. Some are so good with dual sticks that they have really high-level PvP success notwithstanding the legacy hardware.

But really it is just legacies. In gaming, the analogue thumbstick is just another one. It's a legacy of Nintendo needing something for the N64 which Sony rapidly copied to show there was no advantage to buying a Ninty. It's a poor control method (better than stuff that doesn't use finger tips but worse than most stuff that does) that will be superseded and will disappear ... but these things take time, as the loveable old joystick is currently demonstrating.

I have a feeling fighter pilots would find it exceedingly difficult to control their airplane with a mouse and keyboard while dealing with the G loads of flying an airplane. When you're in an environment that isn't correctly calm and stable, you need an input mechanism that's a bit more robust and strength (instead of just dexterity) oriented.

 

[Mangal Oemie]

...
Just think of one of the biggest advantages of a HOTAS: analogue throttle control. How much utility does that offer in a modern PvP fight? 0. Ships are either at full throttle spamming boost, or occasionally at 0 or full reverse during a slide. There's no concern about strategic speed management to have just enough maneuverability for the intended maneuver without giving up too much speed. There's no concern about making sure you go slow enough to not overshoot your target. Constant boost availability makes all that irrelevant.
....

I fly full FAOff in combat with fixed weapons, and a Warthog HOTAS (with Aussiedroid's fantastic script).

I do not agree with this. I often use PAs and rails, and more recently frags, and it's all about closing distance quickly for a shot, and ideally stay right on top of the target, for more damage, rather than wait for the next pass. I can't do that if I only boost. I am constantly moving on the throttle to bleed speed, add a little, and position myself well. I have the power to boost and boost if I wanted to, but often, I just need the 4 pips to engines, instead - exactly for careful distance management.

Someone who just perma-boosts is great as an opponent. I'll let them boost at me, bleed speed, turn as they race past, and am straight at their tail. Constant boost may not be nearly as effective as you think.

 

[Truesilver]

I fly full FAOff in combat with fixed weapons, and a Warthog HOTAS (with Aussiedroid's fantastic script).

I do not agree with this. I often use PAs and rails, and more recently frags, and it's all about closing distance quickly for a shot, and ideally stay right on top of the target, for more damage, rather than wait for the next pass. I can't do that if I only boost. I am constantly moving on the throttle to bleed speed, add a little, and position myself well. I have the power to boost and boost if I wanted to, but often, I just need the 4 pips to engines, instead - exactly for careful distance management.

Someone who just perma-boosts is great as an opponent. I'll let them boost at me, bleed speed, turn as they race past, and am straight at their tail. Constant boost may not be nearly as effective as you think.

But 'perma-boost' isn't a term describing someone who boosts straight at you in serious PvP. It refers to constantly boosting laterally. I don't know the extent of your PvP experience but unless you have fought in the type of duels we're talking about you may not fully appreciate the effectiveness. I can assure you that it is what PvP revolves around now for a reason.

Done correctly, entirely with forwards and up/down/r/l thrust and no reverski, it creates a situation that is the very opposite of the one you describe, in which it is practically impossible for someone to get on one's tail or to get too close.

Recent example. Vid's quite long but I'm basically doing it the whole time across both duels so pick almost anywhere!

[video=youtube_share;fB3lLAA3K2I]https://youtu.be/fB3lLAA3K2I[/video]

 

[Frenotx]

I fly full FAOff in combat with fixed weapons, and a Warthog HOTAS (with Aussiedroid's fantastic script).

I do not agree with this. I often use PAs and rails, and more recently frags, and it's all about closing distance quickly for a shot, and ideally stay right on top of the target, for more damage, rather than wait for the next pass. I can't do that if I only boost. I am constantly moving on the throttle to bleed speed, add a little, and position myself well. I have the power to boost and boost if I wanted to, but often, I just need the 4 pips to engines, instead - exactly for careful distance management.

Someone who just perma-boosts is great as an opponent. I'll let them boost at me, bleed speed, turn as they race past, and am straight at their tail. Constant boost may not be nearly as effective as you think.

And then they boost again seconds later, and flip over in FA-off. Now you're in front on them. "Getting on someone's tail" is somewhat meaningless when they can do that. That tactic of chasing them after a close pass also only works of the opponent goes for close passes, which they don't necessarily have to. They can hold down one of the lateral thrust buttons while boosting to have more angular velocity, which good pilots do to make themselves a more difficult target.

Edit: ninja'd with video evidence. Well played, Truesilver.

 

[Mangal Oemie]

But 'perma-boost' isn't a term describing someone who boosts straight at you in serious PvP. It refers to constantly boosting laterally. I don't know the extent of your PvP experience but unless you have fought in the type of duels we're talking about you may not fully appreciate the effectiveness. I can assure you that it is what PvP revolves around now for a reason.

Done correctly, entirely with forwards and up/down/r/l thrust and no reverski, it creates a situation that is the very opposite of the one you describe, in which it is practically impossible for someone to get on one's tail or to get too close.

Recent example. Vid's quite long but I'm basically doing it the whole time across both duels so pick almost anywhere!

I know what you mean. Once you get to that level, I'd agree, things get very hard. Sorry, didnt realize we were talking more narrowly than broadly.

[video=youtube;kMqYBZKfaOE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMqYBZKfaOE[/video]

BTW, that vid is no proof of anything more than that I understand your point. My insistence on Full FA off combat and stubbornly flying shieldless, and a sparring partner who's better than me means I always lose

 

[sovapid]

Or you can just use KBM FAoff yourself if you think it's teh easy mode without which no one can even dream about the slightest chance of earning the title of the Supreme Overlord of the galaxy ;-)

Hit me up at the next CG and we can do some PVP! You can compare me and my pleb flying with a joystick to the the KBAM pilots.

 

[sovapid]

Oh, and Brap_man does have way decent with an XBox controller. Flying FAOff and using Plasma Accelerators.

But PA's are some of the easier fixed weapons to use.....

 

[galahad2069]

Hit me up at the next CG and we can do some PVP! You can compare me and my pleb flying with a joystick to the the KBAM pilots.

I'll gladly do it, but what would you like to prove?

I think you misunderstood my point, it was quite the opposite of what you seem to have thought it was.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

to be honest specific examples are kind of moot.

few would argue KB/M is more effective than a pad on an FPSer (note i say more effective, much like elite, i personally do NOT think more effective = better)

however i am certain there will be SOME pad gamers who hold their own very well against some KB/Mers.

but over all the fact is, a pad is at a disadvantage to KB/M. As someone who enjoys gaming on a pad more the KB/M - despite being better on the latter - it is why i prefer playing many games on console over PC... but i digress.

whether in elite this is a problem FD need to fix or not is debatable.... but it is not debatable that those flying FAoff/relative control on a mouse have a competitive edge if they know what they are doing over someone on a pad or even hotas.

now.... having ship movement that affects your cmdrs control when you get hit by weapons/rammed and g force would make it fairer and more realistic no doubt but again, whether this would be fun or not to the game is debatable (and may make people feel motion sick esp in VR).

but my point is simply this... those KB/Mers saying that people on a pad are being slimey / what ever other insults some have thrown in this thread for wanting some assists need to realise imo that they ALREADY have massive assists when gaming on mouse because they have the magic inertial dampeners which negate one of the major inherent design disadvantages of their chosen control.

 

[Zak Gordon]

But Keyboard + Mouse is also the most effective, so if you want to do well in PVP you are almost incentivized to use it...

At the end of the day a mouse just will always allow more precise aiming then a controller, nothing you can do about it really other then aim assist which is already there in the form of gimbals (Edit: And to a degree on fixed weapons). Or maybe artifical making mouse movment worse, which would be bad Idea.

I am actually really surprised (and glad!) to hear this. I had assumed that ED worked best with a HOTAS and really for 'just a game' i'm not comfortable with sinking the money into those (and extra ones/repairs as they seem to break often) just to be able to play.

I have setup a joystick+keyboard control setup (no plan to do PvP) but thank you for letting me know that my trusty mouse+keyboard is going to be fine to enjoy the game fully

 

[crushdepth]

I have a feeling fighter pilots would find it exceedingly difficult to control their airplane with a mouse and keyboard while dealing with the G loads of flying an airplane. When you're in an environment that isn't correctly calm and stable, you need an input mechanism that's a bit more robust and strength (instead of just dexterity) oriented.

"I would have had that guy if I just had another 30cm of desk space".

 

[Truesilver]

I know what you mean. Once you get to that level, I'd agree, things get very hard. Sorry, didnt realize we were talking more narrowly than broadly.

BTW, that vid is no proof of anything more than that I understand your point. My insistence on Full FA off combat and stubbornly flying shieldless, and a sparring partner who's better than me means I always lose

Cheers. I love shieldless but even though almost everyone seems to shout 'modules!' whenever raised, one of the under-commented handicaps is sheer hit point deficit compared to either shield tank or bi-weave hybrid. My own (rather individual) way of squaring this circle is to fly a shield tank with a default mode of 0-4-2 pips, meaning that effectively my shield is merely a giant impenetrable HRP. But ofc, this works rather better in my preferred Courier and FdL, than in aChief...

For those interested in the whole perma-boost thing here by coincidence is a vid from last night shot by Cmdr Avelore Rayne (Judas H, this guy knows how to aim PA's FA-off). The point is that in my vid against Replicant, linked earlier in this thread, I was perma-boosting, me fully gimballed. Here Avelore is perma-boosting, him fully PA. And ofc I (being the opponent) am naturally perma-boosting as well! The perma-boost is all!!

[video=youtube_share;b5NhfUkV-9E]https://youtu.be/b5NhfUkV-9E[/video]

Oh, and Brap_man does have way decent with an XBox controller. Flying FAOff and using Plasma Accelerators.

And Xpressive, Majinvash and (back in the day) S!lk are all PvP-ers of achievement who favour Xbone controller. It can be done, it can all be done, but imho it's done against the odds.

but it is not debatable that those flying FAoff/relative control on a mouse have a competitive edge if they know what they are doing over someone on a pad or even hotas.

now.... having ship movement that affects your cmdrs control when you get hit by weapons/rammed and g force would make it fairer and more realistic no doubt but again, whether this would be fun or not to the game is debatable (and may make people feel motion sick esp in VR).

but my point is simply this... those KB/Mers saying that people on a pad are being slimey / what ever other insults some have thrown in this thread for wanting some assists need to realise imo that they ALREADY have massive assists when gaming on mouse because they have the magic inertial dampeners which negate one of the major inherent design disadvantages of their chosen control.

This thread is motivating me to go back to using relative mouse! As I said earlier I don't personally use it. Anyone who knows me will know that I put quite an absurd amount of thought into such matters (yes, I have too much time on my hands) so naturally I could bore you all with an entire thread about my tactics and reasons ... but breathe easy, I won't here.

I am actually really surprised (and glad!) to hear this. I had assumed that ED worked best with a HOTAS and really for 'just a game' i'm not comfortable with sinking the money into those (and extra ones/repairs as they seem to break often) just to be able to play.

I have setup a joystick+keyboard control setup (no plan to do PvP) but thank you for letting me know that my trusty mouse+keyboard is going to be fine to enjoy the game fully

It will be fine.

But don't speak too soon when it comes to yo money.

I'm a Kickstarter backer of the Lexip project and earlier was discussing with Morbad his idea of using that on right hand and 3D mouse on left hand. That's like a USD 600+ mouse setup right there...!

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

This thread is motivating me to go back to using relative mouse! As I said earlier I don't personally use it. Anyone who knows me will know that I put quite an absurd amount of thought into such matters (yes, I have too much time on my hands) so naturally I could bore you all with an entire thread about my tactics and reasons ... but breathe easy, I won't here.

It may be if you have mastered not using relative mouse you will not like it and may not find it helps....... like i said tho, it is kind of moot.... i suspect you would beat me at pvp on mouse, on a pad, on a HOTAS and maybe even KB only... i am not good at PvP in ED. (or PvP at all in any game tbh, its just not my bag so i have no interest in getting good at it)... I am just talking like for like average player vs average player the relative control mouse is easier to control if you want to FAoff in combat. For me it is horrible tho which is why i wont use it, and it does not worry me if i am weaker because of it.... but IF i was a competitive gamer it would be a problem for me...... feeling obliged to use a (imo) less immersive control to be more competitive.

(again tho, i play games like dying light etc on pc using a pad)

I

 

[Winter Jasra]

I know what you mean. Once you get to that level, I'd agree, things get very hard. Sorry, didnt realize we were talking more narrowly than broadly.



BTW, that vid is no proof of anything more than that I understand your point. My insistence on Full FA off combat and stubbornly flying shieldless, and a sparring partner who's better than me means I always lose

Use the chaff and the heatsinks!!

 

[Winter Jasra]

And Xpressive, Majinvash and (back in the day) S!lk are all PvP-ers of achievement who favour Xbone controller. It can be done, it can all be done, but imho it's done against the odds.

Well afaik, from seeing his posts at the Git Gud school, one of the reasons Majinvash quit the game because he felt he couldn't compete with the top kb/m PvP'ers whilst using his pad.

 

[the100thmonkey]

I'm a Kickstarter backer of the Lexip project and earlier was discussing with Morbad his idea of using that on right hand and 3D mouse on left hand. That's like a USD 600+ mouse setup right there...!

I use a 3D mouse (if, by that, you mean a CAD 3D manipulator jobbie) on my left hand and can't go back now. It works extremely well, and gives you great control on the thrusters.

Spoiler

A word to the wise, though - if you do end up using 3DConnexion hardware, make sure it's supported by Sx2vJoy. The maintainer, LasseB, doesn't seem to maintain the package any longer, so newer devices probably won't work, or at least won't work fully. There is a config file that comes with newer official drivers sso the driver autodetects when the game is in fullscreen and switches to a joystick mode. It needs manual configuration. However, it doesn't allow you to tweak sensitivity. This is a major drawback as the gimbal socket is round, not square, which means you lose about 17% of both X and Y axes when bichording. You need to compensate by amplifying the response curve. Sx2vJoy allows you to do this. I saw one unsourced and unverified report on the Star Citizen Reddit that someone had got it working with Joystick Gremlin, but I couldn't get it to do so.

 

[Truesilver]

And Xpressive, Majinvash and (back in the day) S!lk are all PvP-ers of achievement who favour Xbone controller. It can be done, it can all be done, but imho it's done against the odds.

Well afaik, from seeing his posts at the Git Gud school, one of the reasons Majinvash quit the game because he felt he couldn't compete with the top kb/m PvP'ers whilst using his pad.

Ah, word. Well for the reasons I have already given, that wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I use a 3D mouse (if, by that, you mean a CAD 3D manipulator jobbie) on my left hand and can't go back now. It works extremely well, and gives you great control on the thrusters.

I've just done a bit of googling. Could you possibly do me a favour and link to the precise product you're using?