Elite Dangerous's core lore person isn't Michael Brookes .. examining the breadcrumb trail of Allen Stroud

This is a repost from Independent Raxxla Hunters discord where someone had mentioned the lore stream and the fact there might be Raxxla references elsewhere. This is my response because it is has become increasingly evident Michael Brookes while instrumental in building the Elite Dangerous universe is not the central writer of the lore. I have been reading the books and while not done it never made sense why Lave was so damn central to the story unless it connects the past to 3300. Then I found the links below which just served to solidify that this is indeed the case.

If Raxxla is found in other games it is because of the games core lore person .. and no that isn't Michael Brookes (Brookes was just Braben's guy making sure his vision of the project was there and helped edit things to match the lore guides by Stroud for what they were willing to make public). Since R. Holdstock died in 2009 they got the next best author to write everything -- Allen Stroud. He is the spiritual successor of Robert Holdstock. Also, should be noted Lave is what ultimately connects the past to the present. Your CMDRs aren't merely human .. they were genetic super soldiers built to serve the Club. That cloning tech and genetic engineering came first from Judas Syndicate and was imported to the region by a family of Far God cultists known as the Ryders that learned the arts of piracy via Judas Syndicate. Seeking safety they board the generation ships bound for Teorge. Well the rest is history and that explains Riedquat becoming a criminal haven, the Ryders new home being near Isinor (which itself is near Teorge - see chapter 1 and chapter 4 of the Dark Wheel novel), and Dr. Walden of Lave. I know where their home system is probably located (there is also a connection to Jameson's sidewinder nearby too). Stroud wrote the majority of the lore that happens between The Dark Wheel and 3300 that the books and Elite Encounters RPG are based upon.

http://www.allenstroud.co.uk/2015/06/the-revolution-is-back.html
http://www.allenstroud.co.uk/2015/06/elite-dangerous-colour-of-space.html
http://www.allenstroud.co.uk/2016/01/2015-happy-new-year-and-following.html
http://www.allenstroud.co.uk/2016/02/chaos-reborn-loremasters-guide.html
http://www.allenstroud.co.uk/2017/04/writing-and-things-update-2017.html
http://www.allenstroud.co.uk/2016/07/update-2016-so-much-stuff.html
http://www.allenstroud.co.uk/2020/09/the-road-to-fearless-and-road-beyond.html
 
Specifically, the best candidate is BD-22 3573 (Ryder clan home) ... this best matches the descriptions in chapter 1 of The Dark Wheel (large agriculture and industrial economy with a Earth-like planet with slightly denser atmosphere than Earth). This is based on what the Ryder family traded. Also, in Chapter 4 it is stated that Isinor controlled that region of the Faraway network. Then there is this as the system description for Reshas nearby ...



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Interesting post.

Robert Holdstock had a reputation for being Britain's greatest mythmaker. Raxxla is as much as an achievement as his work on Mythago Wood. Strangely, his Elite fans are mostly unaware of his fantasy novels and critics of SF and Fantasy are mostly unaware of his work on Elite. I have tried to correct this in academic circles.

I have read Holdstock's work several wonderful critical guides to his writing. He had a specific understanding of the way in which a writer can use partiality and fragments.I recently wrote a new academic article on how this can work in Worlds Apart - published by Luna Press.

I did a lot of work on Elite Dangerous in 2013 and continued to work on my novel, Lave Revolution, and a few other things until 2015. I was very aware of Holdstock's aesthetic as I developed mine. I still run Lavecon and occasionally appear on Lave Radio. I would return to work on Elite and develop the lore. Frontier know where I am and how to get hold of me.

I loved working on the Spidermind Games project, EDRPG. The stories I wrote for them along with a lore primer for their core rules book was the last work I did on anything Elite related. I still inquire occasionally about writing another book, Lave Republic, but only when I have room in my writing schedule.

However, I have moved on. I write hard science fiction (harder than Elite), some Fantasy and Horror. Between 2016 and 2019, I worked on Phoenix Point which used many of the same techniques that I developed whilst working on Elite. I'm also Chair of the British Science Fiction Association and a consultant on a variety of different international projects that make use of some of the same techniques.

I moved away from engaging with the Elite lore when I stopped working on it. There was something of a 'little kingdom' and tent pole mentality exhibited by a few (outside but associated with Frontier) that made engagement tiresome. There is only so many times you can correct people when others claim credit for your work.

It is wonderful to see Robert Holdstock's legacy still alive in the minds of players. That is the best tribute to him anyone could ever give.
 
Interesting post.

Robert Holdstock had a reputation for being Britain's greatest mythmaker. Raxxla is as much as an achievement as his work on Mythago Wood. Strangely, his Elite fans are mostly unaware of his fantasy novels and critics of SF and Fantasy are mostly unaware of his work on Elite. I have tried to correct this in academic circles.

I have read Holdstock's work several wonderful critical guides to his writing. He had a specific understanding of the way in which a writer can use partiality and fragments.I recently wrote a new academic article on how this can work in Worlds Apart - published by Luna Press.

I did a lot of work on Elite Dangerous in 2013 and continued to work on my novel, Lave Revolution, and a few other things until 2015. I was very aware of Holdstock's aesthetic as I developed mine. I still run Lavecon and occasionally appear on Lave Radio. I would return to work on Elite and develop the lore. Frontier know where I am and how to get hold of me.

I loved working on the Spidermind Games project, EDRPG. The stories I wrote for them along with a lore primer for their core rules book was the last work I did on anything Elite related. I still inquire occasionally about writing another book, Lave Republic, but only when I have room in my writing schedule.

However, I have moved on. I write hard science fiction (harder than Elite), some Fantasy and Horror. Between 2016 and 2019, I worked on Phoenix Point which used many of the same techniques that I developed whilst working on Elite. I'm also Chair of the British Science Fiction Association and a consultant on a variety of different international projects that make use of some of the same techniques.

I moved away from engaging with the Elite lore when I stopped working on it. There was something of a 'little kingdom' and tent pole mentality exhibited by a few (outside but associated with Frontier) that made engagement tiresome. There is only so many times you can correct people when others claim credit for your work.

It is wonderful to see Robert Holdstock's legacy still alive in the minds of players. That is the best tribute to him anyone could ever give.
Mythago and the Merlin Codex are wonderful series! I encountered them through Elite. Sadly in the states nobody seems to know about Holdstock and his books are very hard to get ahold of.
 
They are indeed. I expect the rights to Holdstock's work in America is a little neglected. Gollancz (Hachette) are his publishers in the UK. The British Fantasy Award for best novel is also, the Holdstock Award.

Paul Kincaid is doing a critical work on Holdstock next year. He finished one on Christopher Priest in 2020. I've mentioned all off the Elite stuff to him and will nudge and follow up to see if he includes it.
 
They are indeed. I expect the rights to Holdstock's work in America is a little neglected. Gollancz (Hachette) are his publishers in the UK. The British Fantasy Award for best novel is also, the Holdstock Award.

Paul Kincaid is doing a critical work on Holdstock next year. He finished one on Christopher Priest in 2020. I've mentioned all off the Elite stuff to him and will nudge and follow up to see if he includes it.
I was lucky enough to finally get hold of all the books released in the year or so before the first Elite game: Alien Landscapes (Robert Holdstock and Malcolm Edwards), Tour of the Universe (Robert Holdstock and Malcolm Edwards), Space Wars: Worlds and Weapons (Steven Eisler - this was Robert Holdstock's pen name), and Alien Worlds: A Complete Illustrated Guide (Steven Eisler -- again this was a pen name).

Also, thank you so much for replying to this thread as it really made my day. You have no idea how much that means to me. I have been tracking down your books on Kindle. They are quite good.

Also, whether or not you were responsible or the fine folks at Frontier Developments were responsible the amount of cultural references buried in Elite Dangerous is just kind of mind-blowing. Thank you for your amazing contributions to this fantastic universe.
 
I was lucky enough to finally get hold of all the books released in the year or so before the first Elite game: Alien Landscapes (Robert Holdstock and Malcolm Edwards), Tour of the Universe (Robert Holdstock and Malcolm Edwards), Space Wars: Worlds and Weapons (Steven Eisler - this was Robert Holdstock's pen name), and Alien Worlds: A Complete Illustrated Guide (Steven Eisler -- again this was a pen name).
Awesome! Malcolm was the head of Gollancz and then moved up in the hierarchy of Orion before stepping down and moving over to Welbeck in 2019. He was Robert's publisher throughout his career. Clearly, the experimental approach in mixing styles, creating fictional journalese, etc, was part of his approach throughout his career.

If you get a chance, The Ragthorn is a fascinating little novella, distilling Holdstck's ability to weld his work directly into the cultural memory of his readers. There's a lovely playful take on religion in this story.
Also, thank you so much for replying to this thread as it really made my day. You have no idea how much that means to me. I have been tracking down your books on Kindle. They are quite good.

Also, whether or not you were responsible or the fine folks at Frontier Developments were responsible the amount of cultural references buried in Elite Dangerous is just kind of mind-blowing. Thank you for your amazing contributions to this fantastic universe.

No worries. It was nice to see someone looking into all the content. I've got some new SF projects coming out in 2022, both fiction and non fiction. As with all writers, I'm learning my craft every time I work on something. ;)
 
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Hi @Allen Stroud ,

I was rereading the cloning parts of Lave Revolution again and I noticed there was a room for a clone named Hadrian. I am wondering if this is Hadrian Augustus Duval. The timing doesn't exactly line up, as this Hadrian would be a clone older than Harry Walden, making his "birth" year older than 3257, while Hadrian Augustus Duval was "supposedly" 18 years old in 3304, making his unsubstantiated birthdate 3286, a minimum of 29 years difference. Now he also came out of left field as he was not raised in the royal family, so there may be some foul play along the lines of how Salome was inserted into an Imperial senator's family, and she was a clone.

The other coincidence is that the youngest clone mentioned was named Hector, and Hadrian Duval just had a son and named him Hector. There is a reason to think that there may be some funny business going on with how quickly these clones age as the voice, maybe AI, Niamh, is the name of a princess of Tir na nOg (Land of the Young), and in the myth she leads Oisin (perhaps the Walden clones) to Tir na nOg, of which Oisin eventually leaves and becomes and old man as time passed differently to him in the fairy land. Niamh seems to wake harry from a sleep, perhaps a suspended animation?

I am making several large leaps here but there are reasons for these leaps:
1. The mythical link - Queen of Tir na nOg, the land of the young
2. The cloning process
3. The peculiar way Hadrian found his way into the Imperial family - I.E. out of obscurity. This was done before with Kahina Tijani Loren (Salome)

Now for the extra tinfoil, why I suspect Hans Walden is one of the lines of Dark Wheel clones because:
1. The name of the leader of the Dark Wheel is Oberon, aka King of the Fairies (and fairie land, similar to Tir na nOg), and the princess of Fairyland, Tir na nOg is raising clones of Walden.
2. in The Dark Wheel novella Elyssia Fields mentions that her Broodmother "She discovered Greek mythology at age 9 when she was incubating her first cluster" potentially around the age Harry Walden was when introduced to young Hector, and the same age difference between Harry Walden and Henry Walden.
3.Hans has alternative versions based on cultural version of the name Hans, such as John (Jameson) and Giovanni (Luciano Perstigio Giovanni, which I take means John who has a Shining Reputation), the former CIEP member and likely Dark Wheel member.

If I am wrong, please let me know if my tea leaves are just that, wet leaves.
Thank you for the wonderful book and your time.
 
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You know Hengist is the very one that changed the rules so Arissa Lavigne-Duval could become Emperor:

Imperial Succession Vote In Senate Today -
05 OCT 3301

Hengist Duval was also the one who who got cut on the artifact stolen in First Encounters that was taken to Black Mausoleum in Beta Hydri (the Imperial station in a Federation Founder system). It should be noted Mic Turner and Meredith Argent were very close personal friends to the Emperor and even gifted him one of the the Quest ships (see First Encounters gazettes).
 
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Your theory would actually make a lot of sense with the story of the Duval Artifact, Hengist, Beta Hydri (and formation of the current Federation), and Judas Syndicate organized crime organization and the fact the artifact disappeared with Ji Khanguire (his mother is the Red Hourglass mentioned in Portrait of A Bounty Hunter from 10 Aug 3301 - see https://community.elitedangerous.com/galnet/uid/55c8a7a89657babd107d9faa).


Hi Allen,

I was rereading the cloning parts of Lave Revolution again and I noticed there was a room for a clone named Hadrian. I am wondering if this is Hadrian Augustus Duval. The timing doesn't exactly line up, as this Hadrian would be a clone older than Harry Walden, making his "birth" year older than 3257, while Hadrian Augustus Duval was "supposedly" 18 years old in 3304, making his unsubstantiated birthdate 3286, a minimum of 29 years difference. Now he also came out of left field as he was not raised in the royal family, so there may be some foul play along the lines of how Salome was inserted into an Imperial senator's family, and she was a clone.

The other coincidence is that the youngest clone mentioned was named Hector, and Hadrian Duval just had a son and named him Hector. There is a reason to think that there may be some funny business going on with how quickly these clones age as the voice, maybe AI, Niamh, is the name of a Queen of Tir na nOg (Land of the Young), and in the myth she leads Oisin (perhaps the Walden clones) to Tir na nOg, of which Oisin eventually leaves and becomes and old man as time passed differently to him in the fairy land. Niamh seems to wake harry from a sleep, perhaps a suspended animation?

I am making several large leaps here but there are reasons for these leaps:
1. The mythical link - Queen of Tir na nOg, the land of the young
2. The cloning process
3. The peculiar way Hadrian found his way into the Imperial family - this was done before with Kahina Tijani Loren (Salome)

Now for the extra tinfoil, why I suspect Hans Walden is one of the lines of Dark Wheel clones because:
1. The name of the leader of the Dark Wheel is Oberon, aka King of the Fairies, as the Queen of Fairyland, Tir na nOg is raising clones of Walden.
2. in The Dark Wheel novella Elyssia Fields mentions that her Broodmother "She discovered Greek mythology at age 9 when she was incubating her first cluster" potentially around the age Harry Walden was when introduced to young Hector, and the same age difference between Harry Walden and Henry Walden.
3.Hans has alternative versions based on culture, such as John (Jameson?hans met him) and Giovanni (Luciano Perstigio Giovanni, which I take means Shining Prestige, John), the former CIEP member and likely Dark Wheel member.

If I am wrong, please let me know if my tea leaves are just that, wet leaves.
Thank you for the wonderful book and your time.
 
Hi Allen,

I was rereading the cloning parts of Lave Revolution again and I noticed there was a room for a clone named Hadrian. I am wondering if this is Hadrian Augustus Duval. The timing doesn't exactly line up, as this Hadrian would be a clone older than Harry Walden, making his "birth" year older than 3257, while Hadrian Augustus Duval was "supposedly" 18 years old in 3304, making his unsubstantiated birthdate 3286, a minimum of 29 years difference. Now he also came out of left field as he was not raised in the royal family, so there may be some foul play along the lines of how Salome was inserted into an Imperial senator's family, and she was a clone.

The other coincidence is that the youngest clone mentioned was named Hector, and Hadrian Duval just had a son and named him Hector. There is a reason to think that there may be some funny business going on with how quickly these clones age as the voice, maybe AI, Niamh, is the name of a Queen of Tir na nOg (Land of the Young), and in the myth she leads Oisin (perhaps the Walden clones) to Tir na nOg, of which Oisin eventually leaves and becomes and old man as time passed differently to him in the fairy land. Niamh seems to wake harry from a sleep, perhaps a suspended animation?

I am making several large leaps here but there are reasons for these leaps:
1. The mythical link - Queen of Tir na nOg, the land of the young
2. The cloning process
3. The peculiar way Hadrian found his way into the Imperial family - this was done before with Kahina Tijani Loren (Salome)

Now for the extra tinfoil, why I suspect Hans Walden is one of the lines of Dark Wheel clones because:
1. The name of the leader of the Dark Wheel is Oberon, aka King of the Fairies, as the Queen of Fairyland, Tir na nOg is raising clones of Walden.
2. in The Dark Wheel novella Elyssia Fields mentions that her Broodmother "She discovered Greek mythology at age 9 when she was incubating her first cluster" potentially around the age Harry Walden was when introduced to young Hector, and the same age difference between Harry Walden and Henry Walden.
3.Hans has alternative versions based on culture, such as John (Jameson?hans met him) and Giovanni (Luciano Perstigio Giovanni, which I take means Shining Prestige, John), the former CIEP member and likely Dark Wheel member.

If I am wrong, please let me know if my tea leaves are just that, wet leaves.
Thank you for the wonderful book and your time.
Not sure if this will help but this is direct from the First Encounters gazette (see http://www.dream-ware.co.uk/first-encounters/journals/all/ ):


NEW CROWN PRINCE DELIVERED ON CAPITOL​


M.T.


The Imperial Palace is pleased to announce the birth of the latest Prince of the Empire. He was delivered to the Imperial Palace on Capitol early last week and will be named as follows:


Prince Hesketh, Hephaesteus, Horsa, Horus, Herald, Haemon, Huang-ti Hierophant, Henry, Harrald, Hildegard, Honolulu, Helpme, Hinda, Haardvaark, H'tino, Heng, Han, Hal, Hyped-up, Honorific, Harpy, Hester, Heliphant, Hantioch, Hissele, Homan, Hetsan, Hithere, Holdon, Hafgan, Hinquebuss, Havid, Haggy, Hjon, Hran, Hike, Horo, Hebat, Hannibal, Hrist, Happy, Holographic, Hunab-ku, Hermes Duval the Seventeenth.
 
Hi @Allen Stroud ,

I was rereading the cloning parts of Lave Revolution again and I noticed there was a room for a clone named Hadrian.

Good work! :D

The power of a writer who has been given the licence to write an official fiction novel is finite. Under the remit given, I couldn't possibly envisage where Elite Dangerous has arrived at today. However, what I could try to do in my work was project depth.

There are a variety of small plot elements in Lave Revolution that do exactly that, adding to the mythos. Any additional connection is a inferred connection of narrative. I did not (and do not) have control over the Duval story, but I did want to make sure the elements of the novel I wrote added to the background of the entire project without dictating to that project or trying to deliver a 'Skywalker Story' as that would be against the interests of the mandate I was given.
 
Hi @Allen Stroud ,

I was rereading the cloning parts of Lave Revolution again and I noticed there was a room for a clone named Hadrian. I am wondering if this is Hadrian Augustus Duval. The timing doesn't exactly line up, as this Hadrian would be a clone older than Harry Walden, making his "birth" year older than 3257, while Hadrian Augustus Duval was "supposedly" 18 years old in 3304, making his unsubstantiated birthdate 3286, a minimum of 29 years difference. Now he also came out of left field as he was not raised in the royal family, so there may be some foul play along the lines of how Salome was inserted into an Imperial senator's family, and she was a clone.

The other coincidence is that the youngest clone mentioned was named Hector, and Hadrian Duval just had a son and named him Hector. There is a reason to think that there may be some funny business going on with how quickly these clones age as the voice, maybe AI, Niamh, is the name of a princess of Tir na nOg (Land of the Young), and in the myth she leads Oisin (perhaps the Walden clones) to Tir na nOg, of which Oisin eventually leaves and becomes and old man as time passed differently to him in the fairy land. Niamh seems to wake harry from a sleep, perhaps a suspended animation?

I am making several large leaps here but there are reasons for these leaps:
1. The mythical link - Queen of Tir na nOg, the land of the young
2. The cloning process
3. The peculiar way Hadrian found his way into the Imperial family - I.E. out of obscurity. This was done before with Kahina Tijani Loren (Salome)

Now for the extra tinfoil, why I suspect Hans Walden is one of the lines of Dark Wheel clones because:
1. The name of the leader of the Dark Wheel is Oberon, aka King of the Fairies (and fairie land, similar to Tir na nOg), and the princess of Fairyland, Tir na nOg is raising clones of Walden.
2. in The Dark Wheel novella Elyssia Fields mentions that her Broodmother "She discovered Greek mythology at age 9 when she was incubating her first cluster" potentially around the age Harry Walden was when introduced to young Hector, and the same age difference between Harry Walden and Henry Walden.
3.Hans has alternative versions based on cultural version of the name Hans, such as John (Jameson) and Giovanni (Luciano Perstigio Giovanni, which I take means John who has a Shining Reputation), the former CIEP member and likely Dark Wheel member.

If I am wrong, please let me know if my tea leaves are just that, wet leaves.
Thank you for the wonderful book and your time.
HMS Fairy J-403 - dredger J-403
HMS Thetis - Thetis Generation ship
HMS Hyperion - Hyperion Generation ship
HMS Beagle - Beagle 2 - Beagle 2 Landing
The Wreck of the Hesperus
i see a recurring theme of boats
 
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