Elite Insurance makes no sense

[AndyB]

Forgive me for not reading the entire thread but I made this point in your other thread and thought i should put it here too.

Read the manual. In it it explains that you get 100% insurance on your sidewinder as part of being a pilot. After that, every new ship you buy INCLUDES a limited insurance package that covers 95% of the rebuy cost, leaving an excess for you to pay for the other 5% and the modules. The Sting in the tail (or tale) is that if you can't afford the excess, you lose it all..

So, you are given insurance up front, you get it included in the sticker price of the ship! Better still, if you don't use it, when you sell the ship, you get that back too!!

Hope this helps explain it! I think it works fine as it is now I've thought it through!

 

[TartanDragon]

Absolutely! Heck no one likes paying insurance haha, but then I'm sure everyone would also love to be able to buy a python without any work as well, I know I sure would haha. Insurance is a fact of life, I don't see why it should be any different in Elite.

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Question, if the insurance company isn't taking regular fee's off you. Who's paying the 95% you're not?

I know (now) how the respawn system works. Again, the point of this thread is that the respawn system doesn't make any economic sense. Who's absorbing the 95% cost of all these player ships that are constantly being destroyed? Cause I'd LOVE to have THAT bank account if they can keep funding it as it is being haha.

Maybe its me but wouldn't you still have the excess even if you were paying monthly? I understand they could scale it but do you really see yourself or other players handing over half of there rare run profit to cover insurance?

Not saying some wouldn't but I still think we would see threads similar to this no matter what system they put in.

 

[Nøhr]

... Wishing that frontier would provide a canonical explanation for how the system works is no crime however.

Wish granted!
As Kitiara posted earlier in this very thread:
"From the Manual


Your first ship is essentially on loan, and covered by a comprehensive insurance policy, ensuring
that you only have to pay a bounty or fine to be issued with a replacement.


Any modules you purchase and fit to this ship are covered by a lesser insurance – should they
need to be replaced you will have to pay a premium excess.


Should you purchase a ship, then this too is covered by a lesser insurance policy – should it be
destroyed, you will need to pay a premium excess for it and all modules fitted.


Although the premium excess fees are only small fractions of the ship and modules’ actual
worth, the resulting bill can still become significant, potentially more than you can afford.
In such circumstances you have a number of options. Assuming you have enough to cover
the hull cost (which includes all mandatory modules), you can choose not to pay for optional
modules, reducing the cost.


You have access to a creditor who can lend you up to 200,000CR. If you take this option, any
credits you make will have 10% deducted at source until the debt is paid.
If you have ships in storage, you can choose to abandon your current vessel claim and select
a ship in storage to activate.


If you have no ships and not enough credits to even pay the bounty or fine you owe at the
starport or outpost you arrive at after your ship has been destroyed, you are declared bankrupt.
All debt and crimes are cleared and you are transported to your starting location where you
receive a new loaned starting ship.


Effectively, your career is reset, but note that you retain all reputation and rank gained/lost (to
clear your career completely you will need to clear your save from the main menu)."

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Because they do not keep enough to cover the excess/deductible. Insurance only covers around 95% of ships cost, the payment up front. The other 5% is due when the ship is destroyed. So you need to keep that in your account after you buy your ship and until its destroyed or you start in a Sidey again.

That makes sense now ... Thanks!

 

[OnePercent]

Of course there are hundreds of ways to explain the current system's economic viability. Anyone with a little imagination can come up with a rationale for it works (and several folks in this thread have offered theirs). Here's how my imagination explains it:

Your insurance fee is paid by the stations. They require the services of traders, bounty hunters and other unmentionable services in order to operate. They keep pilots flying by subsidizing the cost of ship replacements and only requiring pilots to pay a small percentage of the replacement cost to the insurance company as a good-faith gesture. The system works because every member in the chain gets a benefit. The pilot gets to stay in business, the stations are provide with freight services and the insurance company earns a profit from the stations.

Having an imagination is great. Wishing that frontier would provide a canonical explanation for how the system works is no crime however.

I find it really amusing that there are 3 main factions and thousands of sub factions yet there is a: Universal bank, Universal Cartographics and a Universal insurance company and some how all 3 major power blocks can agree with each other? in that case all the 3 major factions are just a facade, the real string pullers are the banking insurance prospector cartel that have some how gained control over all human civilisation....XD

 

[dcforeman]

Forgive me for not reading the entire thread but I made this point in your other thread and thought i should put it here too.

Read the manual. In it it explains that you get 100% insurance on your sidewinder as part of being a pilot. After that, every new ship you buy INCLUDES a limited insurance package that covers 95% of the rebuy cost, leaving an excess for you to pay for the other 5% and the modules. The Sting in the tail (or tale) is that if you can't afford the excess, you lose it all..

So, you are given insurance up front, you get it included in the sticker price of the ship! Better still, if you don't use it, when you sell the ship, you get that back too!!

Hope this helps explain it! I think it works fine as it is now I've thought it through!

That model still makes no sense. It's like buying 1 ship, only to get 1 extra ship for 10% of the price. If that's the case, what about the other ASP. Does that come included with the insurance premium? If you lose another ASP, then you're getting each for 5% of the cost, if you lose another and another it's 2.5% of the cost... I mean even with the 250,000 buy back it's not making a lot of economic sense for the company. At what point do they stop subsidising you new ASPs.

I mean for a mobile phone, sure. You have to send back the old one, the company can then repair and refurbish it and then resell it. In the mean time you get a new one.

In Elite... your ship is flying wreckage dude. I suppose they might be sending out salvage teams. But can you imagine blowing your phone up, and then trying to get a replacement from the phone company. I know what they'd say...

I'm sorry our terms and conditions don't cover C4 detonation! lol

 

[khaitom]

So, you have an Asp Explorer it's worth 6,500,000 credits. Your ship gets destroyed, and you are presented with an insurance screen. For the most part, I ignored it. You get a loan, you get your ship back at a fraction of the cost. It's all good normally, and to be honest I didn't pay any attention to it until today when I couldn't afford a new ship. Yeah I had a temper trantrum, I mean who wouldn't after you'd lost 7.5 million in ship and upgrades... moving past that.

It got me thinking about the existing system... why does the ASP explorer only cost 250,000 credits when it is destroyed? The ship was worth 7.5 million, that's 1/30th of the ship cost. Also, why is there a loan of 200,000 credits available? In what practical way does that make sense? Sure I know it's only a game, but it's supposed to be a space trading game set in the future. That means an established economic system right?

Who exactly is going out, buying new ships, kitting them out at a 7.5 million value then selling them on to the player for 1/30th of the cost? Who is making money? What possible business model could ever exist that ensures that every time a ship is lost they lose 7.25 million credits?

We all know how real world insurance works, you pay X a month, and if your car is totalled you get a replacement. It's a regular payment based on how safely you drive. If you are a crazy nutjob making claims all the time your insurance costs will go through the roof. You benefit for no claims bonuses if you are very safe and never claim from them. This system punishes terrible drivers and rewards good drivers.

But in the elite universe, you only apparently pay the insurance company money + a bank loan when your ships dies. That means they only receive money when your ship is ended at a fraction of the ships cost...

No, this system needs to be rethought. There should be daily or weekly charge. That's how real world insurance works. So why the heck is it so weird in Elite? why as a business model doesn't it make any sense at all?

Or worse still are we all paying 7.5 million credits for a ship that can be manufacturered and delivered to the player for just 250,000 credits... in which case who the heck is getting the 7.25 million credit per ASP and how can I get in on that racket? haha

When you buy your ship a lifetime insurance policy is included in the cost, via the pilots federation. You pay the excess on that policy if your ship is destroyed. Car manufacturers sometimes offer the same kind of included insurance with a new sale (normally only for 3-5 years, not lifetime, but this is game.)

Why the tears when you, yourself, have admitted that "For the most part, I ignored it. You get a loan, you get your ship back at a fraction of the cost. It's all good normally, and to be honest I didn't pay any attention to it until today when I couldn't afford a new ship."

If you ignore key mechanics in the game that then bite you, you are simply being foolish.

 

[mollymawk]

I fail to understand why this is even an issue.

If you are getting a new ship and it costs ten million credits, it is not hard to imagine the actual material cost is only two million and eight million is for the lifetime no-blame warranty. This covers replacement of your ship minus a significant excess to pay to discourage careless behaviour.

The system works. It seems sensible to me. We don't all fly like loons, as long as most pilots explode less than 3 times per ship the insurance business wins.. I have so far only lost 2 sidewinders and 2 cobras(both cobras happened yesterday but that's another story), the eagles, haulers and adders I've flowed never exploded , So I am helping pay for you guys poor skills.

My only issue is how my escape pod can dig its way out of massive gravity wells when my actual ship couldn't before it got too hot. (Multi tasking is over rated.)

 

[Jaiotu]

Wish granted!
As Kitiara posted earlier in this very thread:
"From the Manual


"The Manual"

Yes... I've read the manual. I'm perfectly fine with that. What I meant was for frontier to explain the in-world economical viability of the system. I understand how it works from a game mechanic. My question is, in the game universe, how does anyone make money off this system?

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

We don't all fly like loons

Does boosting out a station make you a loon ?

 

[Craib]

I don't think there is a continued need to have a go at the OP. Yes he did have another post but in this one he has moved on and is asking a genuine question. We should respond in kind and move on.

Back to the question ... Someone else pointed out that we are actually paying the insurance excess not the regularly fee. This is paid by the Pilots Federation.

While most won't like the idea but maybe membership should cost us something ... Though only at the higher ranked level, particularly given the discounts available at the Founders World.

 

[dcforeman]

I find it really amusing that there are 3 main factions and thousands of sub factions yet there is a: Universal bank, Universal Cartographics and a Universal insurance company and some how all 3 major power blocks can agree with each other? in that case all the 3 major factions are just a facade, the real string pullers are the banking insurance prospector cartel that have some how gained control over all human civilisation....XD

Heck year. I mean the Elite universe is basically a warring set of capitalist states all competing with each other. Imagine if all the banks today tried to merge it one massive super bank controlling everything. The governments world wide would be trotting out anti-competition lawsuits by the truckload. Look what happened with Microsoft got too big, the government stepped in and forced the company to split into smaller groups. When BT in the united kingdom had control of all the telephone network, the government stepped in and forced them to resell their network and services to anyone who'd buy up their network just so they didn't have a strangle hold on the countries communications.

All that's just EARTH, lol. Imagine a universe of thousands of settled worlds. A universal banking, cartography and pilots federation doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[Kitiara]

Depends on how you view it really.

Should you purchase a ship, then this too is covered by a lesser insurance policy – should it be
destroyed, you will need to pay a premium excess for it and all modules fitted.

It seems pretty clear cut to me

 

[mollymawk]

I find it really amusing that there are 3 main factions and thousands of sub factions yet there is a: Universal bank, Universal Cartographics and a Universal insurance company and some how all 3 major power blocks can agree with each other? in that case all the 3 major factions are just a facade, the real string pullers are the banking insurance prospector cartel that have some how gained control over all human civilisation....XD

Read Dune

 

[Jaiotu]

Because they do not keep enough to cover the excess/deductible. Insurance only covers around 95% of ships cost, the payment up front. The other 5% is due when the ship is destroyed. So you need to keep that in your account after you buy your ship and until its destroyed or you start in a Sidey again.

So... you pay the insurance cost up front. After that one-time payment the insurance company is happy to replace your ship an infinite number of times as long as you have the credits to pay the 5% when the ship gets blown up? How would the insurance company stay in business?

 

[khaitom]

That model still makes no sense. It's like buying 1 ship, only to get 1 extra ship for 10% of the price. If that's the case, what about the other ASP. Does that come included with the insurance premium? If you lose another ASP, then you're getting each for 5% of the cost, if you lose another and another it's 2.5% of the cost... I mean even with the 250,000 buy back it's not making a lot of economic sense for the company. At what point do they stop subsidising you new ASPs.

I mean for a mobile phone, sure. You have to send back the old one, the company can then repair and refurbish it and then resell it. In the mean time you get a new one.

In Elite... your ship is flying wreckage dude. I suppose they might be sending out salvage teams. But can you imagine blowing your phone up, and then trying to get a replacement from the phone company. I know what they'd say...

I'm sorry our terms and conditions don't cover C4 detonation! lol

I get free phone insurance with my bank account. It covered my phone when someone dropped it into a cement mixer with a rather wet, crunchy, gravelly mix in it. I just paid the excess. There was no way they were repairing that phone.

Would it make you happy if the devs said "Ship insurance is supplied as part of the Galactic Bank Account that every pilot has, as a member of the pilots federation."

After all, pilots with expensive ships generally have huge cash reserve and get paid NO interest. How do you explain that?

 

[Nøhr]

Yes... I've read the manual. I'm perfectly fine with that. What I meant was for frontier to explain the in-world economical viability of the system. I understand how it works from a game mechanic. My question is, in the game universe, how does anyone make money off this system?

You want this space sim to be a bank sim also?

 

[mollymawk]

Most ships do not get blown up.. Even if most of yours do.

 

[UnknownXV]

Because it's not elite and it's not dangerous, it's a casualized space game. Well rendered, but definitely casual. Easy NPC combat, you keep your modules on death, insurance is incredibly cheap, and so on.

 

[Wicz]

Does boosting out a station make you a loon ?

Hehe, it does if you're in a multi million credit ship and you have 12 credits in the bank