Elite, The "Grind" and External Perspective

[GroundxZERO]

Yeah... Thats the whole point. But theres more to it. We obviously like certain aspects of ED and to be honest those aspects are why Im still here. Im not complaining because ED isn't an enjoyable experience. I complain because it could, and imo, should be a MORE enjoyable experience. This isn't a complicated thing to understand.

I know its FDs game and they have the right to do with it as they please but Im sure they want feedback at some point and thats what people who don't like things such as "the grind" give them. We could always just leave but then nobody wins. FD has a lame game, ED gets hung out to dry, and we move on only remembering what could've been.

The grind isn't Elite's biggest issue either. Its grind with no depth behind it, i.e. a mile wide, an inch deep. I just completed the Fed navy rank after grinding for about two weeks. I didn't mind how long it took, I just hated that it was so repetitive with no added layer of difficulty. To me that makes for a very boring game mechanic that frankly is a huge turn off especially when you lock an end game ship behind it. Those data missions should've been worth nothing more than faction rep and credits.

 

[Vorxian]

It's a little black and white but some good points made.

Problem is that is isn't so one-dimensional when you're looking at something like ED. There is content I really, really enjoy playing - but to do so I must engage in grind. I would have no motivation to pay to skip that grind, but I must never the less engage in something I don't particularly enjoy to do the bits of the game that do attract me.

Spot on

It's also where folks never get to the point they can enjoy things, because the 'grind' has burned them out. They put the game down, and immediately vote 1 star on STEAM or other sites others will automatically pick up on if they're researching if a game is good or not.

Balance is the ultimate WIN. Not enough grind, and you shoot through the 'levelling' process. Too much grind, progression appears like a chore, an uninteresting chore which puts one off and provokes the poor ratings.

It's where I found WoW seems to get things right. Just as I feel I'm getting bored of an area... BOOM level up, new environment, new NPCs, new Fauna / Flora, new biome, new skills, more money / better items to be had... That spurs you on, and the tangible and obvious progression gives a clear sense of progress, which keeps interest up. Note: just because you're collecting a generic ... 10 of x, or killing 15 of y.. constant changing environment, ever increasing power, different NPCs sending you off on personal quests which they honor you for assisting with... Wins every time. Feel like you're part of the story (especially when you get your own personal scenes or instances).

 

[Bonzodog]

And then there are those of us who absolutely refuse, on principle, to grind in this game. Progress is a LOT slower, but it feels more rewarding. It does, however, require patience. Lots of it.

When i started out, I ran a few data missions between systems, trying to not to circle back on myself, just started in one, then picked up another data mission going to wherever. I wasn't too bothered about the destination as long as it was somewhere I hadn't been yet. Occasionally, the money was good on a return run that I picked up the odd "acquire X of X item for us" and then ventured around the local systems looking for a market. I'm on console, and we don't get tools. I wasn't worried about any system rep as yet.

I decided for lore reasons that the Alliance and fed systems did not suit me, so bought a cobra Mk III, and headed down through the bubble. At first, spent some time running around Li Yong Rui's area, then bought a Type-6, and headed for Aisling Duvals area. Decide I would get Allied with a system and designated it as "home". So, I did start running missions for those factions, but I had discovered EDDB by then, and found all the systems where the factions had a presence. I just spent a good week or two going in strange circles, no real grinding to it. As I got a higher rank, some of the missions would send me farther afield, and I found profitable goods to take back to my home system and sold them there, then would take a different kind of mission to save getting bored.

I find this kind of gameplay a lot more enjoyable. Stop setting goals in this game, it won't serve you any purpose, except to stress you out. Flip around activities, and don't pin yourself to an area.

I've been in game since it launched to console, and I am probably around halfway through my imperial ranks. I have a small stable of small/medium ships that I regularly change between - I haven't bought any large ones as I have a NEED to be able to land at outposts on any given day.

Incidentally, as I hate combat in these kind of games, I still have yet to get a SINGLE kill. I have successfully escaped every single interdiction, and I don't play in Open.

I have unlocked just one engineer, but am in no hurry to use them as I don't really see why I should.

The game is definitely more interesting played this way.

 

[Wylie28]

grind is also defined by a very trivial repetitive and boring task. tehre is no challange in jumping 550 system far. All it does is wasting a load of time to participate in a small part of what the game offers. And there is no nongrindy way to return. When the grind is a choice then without grind you are basically locked out form major parts of the game, because a laod of features are behind varios forms of grind. We are not talking about WoW where that ONE specific flight mount is hidden behind the huge grind (doing th exact same quest every day). We talk about rather pvp essential features when it comes to engineers, because then the improvement is basically vital or you can just forget about that PvP exists.

What you are explaining isn't grind. Rather scarcity and progression. Both very important for different reasons. When it comes to exploring, because places take so long to reach, it creates a sense of accomplishment. Something explorers are after. You don't hike to the top of a mountain because its easy. Don't jump hundreds of times. Visit the systems you jump to and explore them. If that doesn't sound appealing then exploring isn't the activity for you. No amount of jump range increases is going to change that. All it will do is devalue places people like to visit.

Not have everything immedietly is something all games have done since the dawn of video games. The word for it is called progression. And nothing behind it is essential. To participate in PVP you need a ship capable of equipping a gun. If someone has put the effort to get a bigger ship or enigeer their ship, they should have an advantage. This isn't some arena FPS. Its a space sim. You do not start off as the big fish in the pond. Engineering requires the same effort for everyone. There are many players with ships as engeeringed or less engineered than you. Stay away from bigger fish.

Engineers isn't a grind. Every material apart from data points can be gather passively in any ship doing any activity. Either they appear in POIs you come across going to anywhere, appear as mission rewards, or can be gathered without effort. Wake data for example. Scan wakes as you leave a station. If you choose to make things boring by sitting around for hours there no one to blame but yourself. Don't choose to a boring playstyle, complain about it, and expect sympathy. Stupid decisions come with stupid outcomes. You are an adult. You are capable of controlling your actions.

 

[AnotherVoice]

Entirely fail to see the point of people complaining about grinding: To gain access to a feature or a game element that SEEMS fun but is hidden behind a considerable amount of unpleasant time consuming acitivities within the game.

 

[Layne Vakarian]

Simple fact is, and I speak from WELL over 2000 hours of playing - possibly over 3000 as I never really kept track and I have reset my save before, there isn't really anything here. I can't put my finger on what it is that kept me playing to be honest. It's a space game and I'd argue one of the best, if not THE best of the genre. That said. I'm bored witless. I really want to play (can't at the moment for other reasons), but if I could log in now, I just know I'd enter 'meh-mode' within a few minutes. 'Blaze your own trail' works for a while, sure, and I'm ALSO sure many will be a-blazing long after I'm truly done with it, but I also rather think without any depth of narrative, all there really IS at the end, is grind, and POINTLESS grind at that. Sorry, but that's how I feel.

 

[Jenner]

Ey?
We should be listening to the morally bankrupt Randy "bo bandy" Pitchford now?

Have i slipped though a portal into an alternate dimension again where things like Alien Colonial marines was actually good and they didn't pull all the crap they did with that game like they did in my normal dimension??

But ACM is not being discussed. His stance on grinding is at issue here. Question is: does he have a point about game grind? To bring up his past games is of limited value in this debate, especially considering that ACM had 99 problems but grind aint one of 'em.

 

[Layne Vakarian]

But ACM is not being discussed. His stance on grinding is at issue here. Question is: does he have a point about game grind? To bring up his past games is of limited value in this debate, especially considering that ACM had 99 problems but grind aint one of 'em.

Well I'd have to up and say his stance on game grind is of limited relevance in general, and of absolutely no relevance in particular. Has he played ED?

 

[Xae]

Borderlands lootboxes? He means the slotmachine probably.. those are fine.. but stuff from destiny, shadow of war, battlefront etc are ruining games with bolted on loot boxes for real cash.

I've been chuckling to myself over the Battlefront 2 crowd getting mad about a 40 hour grind to unlock optional characters in the game.


Meanwhile you need to grind for hundreds of hours to unlock effectively required engineering mods in Elite.

 

[Jenner]

Well I'd have to up and say his stance on game grind is of limited relevance in general, and of absolutely no relevance in particular. Has he played ED?

Lol. Yeah, good point.

 

[Xae]

Lol. Yeah, good point.

It is an embarrassingly bad point.

He launched one of the most successful franchises of the last decade.

He might have an insight or two into game design.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

General statements are generally only valuable in a general context.
The premise is sound regardless.

 

[Wylie28]

Entirely fail to see the point of people complaining about grinding: To gain access to a feature or a game element that SEEMS fun but is hidden behind a considerable amount of unpleasant time consuming acitivities within the game.

If you feel that definition applies to Elite. You just don't like the game.

 

[Ca$hback]

Something just occurred to me. If you replace the grind with challenge, many players won't be able to meet that challenge, which I think is great but seems to go against the "everybody's a winner" common denominator. "Remember when I could get that because it was just a grind? Now I can't get it at all. I need an easy alternative." Then everyone starts taking the easy alternative so the more difficult one needs better rewards to be relevant.
Power creep.
Profit creep.
Deterioration of imagination.

 

[Layne Vakarian]

Look, I'm going to make ONE general assumption: you are NOT into PvP.
Okay, so NOW you can do EVERYTHING in ED without ever getting out of your sidewinder. (actually, if you have skills, you might even be able to acquit yourself in PvP).

Now tell me WHY I need a bigger ship. A faster ship. An engineered module or two. ANY damn thing. Because? Well, hell yes, 'because' will do. And now, NOW, You HAVE. TO. GRRRRRRIND! Simples. Does it 'enhance your gameplay'? No. Because your gameplay was just fine in the bloody sidewinder.
"But you could just carry on in the Sidey and just wait until you 'naturally' had the resouces for the bigger ship"
Seriously? Faff about for months doing the SAME THING over and over in the sidey so's I can go and do the SAME THING in a bigger ship?
How did I take so long to see this?
So it. Is. Just. A. g. GRINDFEST.
No story.
No content.
Nothing.

 

[Xae]

Something just occurred to me. If you replace the grind with challenge, many players won't be able to meet that challenge, which I think is great but seems to go against the "everybody's a winner" common denominator. "Remember when I could get that because it was just a grind? Now I can't get it at all. I need an easy alternative." Then everyone starts taking the easy alternative so the more difficult one needs better rewards to be relevant.
Power creep.
Profit creep.
Deterioration of imagination.

You're telling me that if you replace a word with its antonym it changes the point.

Whoa!

That is the thing about "The grind". It isn't a challenge. It isn't difficult. It is just time consuming.

 

[5 Puppis]

Something just occurred to me. If you replace the grind with challenge, many players won't be able to meet that challenge, which I think is great but seems to go against the "everybody's a winner" common denominator. "Remember when I could get that because it was just a grind? Now I can't get it at all. I need an easy alternative." Then everyone starts taking the easy alternative so the more difficult one needs better rewards to be relevant.
Power creep.
Profit creep.
Deterioration of imagination.

Why assume people wilt at any challenge? Some very difficult games are quite successful.

 

[shadow133]

Lol the nerf hammer and the grind is reaching a critical level. According to op either I need to pretend the game is fun and do things like rank grinding, cg that are essentially the same, or circumnavigate a featurless beige rock... rinse and repeat. Or I should stop playing. I still have hope, that the developers will fix a few of the many things broken, and no, saying its targeted audience that the game has zero gameplay is lazy. So Ill play here and there and Ill complain here, if thats ok?

 

[crushdepth]

Randy Pitchford of Gearbox software weighed into the Battlefront 2 Loot Crate debate on Twitter and touched on topics directly relating to Elite Dangerous and the so-called "grind." His is the most cogent view I've seen in a long time. Given his credentials as a game designer, no one can question his attitude toward game development as it's almost identical with Frontiers world view

I reordered his comments in chronological order below to maintain the full context for those interested. For the Elite perspective, begin at comment /7. The references to paying to win are obviously not Frontiers model and that isn't the point I'm trying to make.

Randy's posts on Twitter hit the nail on the head for players who think of Elite as a grind with ships and other game features locked behind rank advancement. While his argument is aimed toward Battlefront II and P2W, his overall statement holds true in regard to some players view of Elite's "grind."


https://i.imgur.com/DxleCKz.jpg

You've completely missed the point. If playing the game mechanics is fun then it is not a grind. "Grinding" is the term we use when the game mechanics are boring.

Yes, I used the b-word. Shooting rocks is boring, can anyone deny it? Carrying A to B for the thousandth time is boring. No amount of denial will make Powerplay not boring. Engineers are frustrating and boring.

It's time someone spoke the truth: Elite is a boring game. Beautiful, impressive to be sure, but dull. So many of the mechanics and the delivery of the so-called storyline are simply awful.

It need not be so. And it's time the Devs woke up and did something about it.

PS: You may now burn me for my heresy, I have conveniently staked myself to this pyre along with my pet goat.

 

[CMDR Carbo]

I think Mr. Pitchfork, ahh, Pitchford, actually makes a good point.

If a game is grindy, and the kind of grind is not fun to you, then don't play the game.
Grind leads to frustration, frustration leads to burn-out or plethora of frustrated forum posts.
In the end we play games to have fun. If there is some limited grind you have to go through that promises that you can have more fun afterwards, then it might be worth it.
But ultimately grind is bad game design IMO.
Because you lock something fun behind something that is tedious to the player.
If all the game contains is grind, then it is probably a bad game.

I know a lot of people will disagree with his point of view. Starting with games like WoW, grind has become almost natural in games.
But then I was thinking about Borderlands, and what I liked about that game: It was incredibly fun to play.

When I first saw Borderlands, it didn't appeal to me at all. I didn't like the cartoony look, and I'm not big into shoooters.
I finally picked it up when it was free for a month on Playstation+. And played through it. And it WAS fun. So fun I completely forgot about the graphics.

One part that makes the gameplay fun, is the way they throw weapons/upgrades at you.
Grinding for gear? No. You were bombarded with good gear.
I had so many weapons I couldn't manage to try them all out.
And that seems like a nice way to make a game fun to play.