Engineer weapon crafting needs to be rethought (if what we suspect is true)

[vrseven]

Ha. Well people can do the "Jack of all trades" type of setup but really that's just a master of none. I still want to get damage on target. What this system will ultimately produce IMO is clearer roles in wings and the freedom for some idiot like me to go full multi-cannons with thermal rounds (whatever the special effect is that effects shields, not heat). Which I think at the end of the day is awesome.

The big downside for me is just how much I'll have to farm and roll for each of those weapons. Not because of the cost so much as the unnecessary trouble of it. There's just too much to leave to 1 master roll at the crafter. It's borderline busy work. There's already so much we have to grind in this game; getting the reputation to get the engi you want, getting him up to rank 5, then spending countless materials trying to get duplicates of the weapon you need seems a little absurd.



Well yeah. That's pretty much the same end goal of the batch suggestion in the OP.

ED attracts a lot of "explorer" types that have nothing to do with combat and would rather combat were not part of the game.

 

[NeilF]

Well yeah. That's pretty much the same end goal of the batch suggestion in the OP.

Yes and no. It means at any time in the future, you can reproduce a copy of a module you have (ie: weapon) without having to grind at Wheel Of Fortune again...

I think that's part of the plan, I'd have to check up on that.

Still doesn't address the fact this is bad RNG on top of RNG layers. The engineers are going to be scattered across the bubble like chaff and will require reputation and referrals to even get any work out of them; the distances, grind, and possibly reputation maintenance are enough qualifiers already to get your hands on a special modification that may be essential to a build you want to play, or even just one you want to try out for a while.

Oh it does sound like grind ontop of grind instead of possibly a more appealing alternative.

I suspect in my current frame of mind, I'd simpy not be able to muster the effort to do much of it.

 

[xaisis]

Getting a Rank has been a grind, i am not that surprised that crafting seems to be going that way as well.


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What i would like is if it was some kinda blueprint system, where the engineer made you the print that u then keep, and could then later craft a weapons/modules of that same type.

That way even if it is RNG getting the blueprint. The blueprint itself would be locked in its stats & effects + be reusable.

That system i would like.

 

[DrBo42]

ED attracts a lot of "explorer" types that have nothing to do with combat and would rather combat were not part of the game.

Well that's part of what's cool about Elite. Now if they could actually update exploration for those folks instead of constant combat updates and tweaks.

I think that's part of the plan, I'd have to check up on that.

Still doesn't address the fact this is bad RNG on top of RNG layers. The engineers are going to be scattered across the bubble like chaff and will require reputation and referrals to even get any work out of them; the distances, grind, and possibly reputation maintenance are enough qualifiers already to get your hands on a special modification that may be essential to a build you want to play, or even just one you want to try out for a while.

That's the second time I've heard that about some system in place to apply the same roll to another weapon. I'll go through the livestream and try to find it if it exists.

I agree with the RNG upon RNG within the roll itself but what you're describing is more like a grind within a grind. Which honestly shouldn't really surprise anyone at this point in Elite. Grinds are part of this game's DNA apparently.

 

[frostypaw]

ED attracts a lot of "explorer" types that have nothing to do with combat and would rather combat were not part of the game.

Oi some of us quite like it, just bemoan the brainless PvP.

But that's part of why I like this - break up the whole concept of 'having to' grind to get some specific build. No you don't, you never did. You choose to do these things - fighting in an underequipped sidey can be just as much fun as anything else in a fair fight. The focus on reaching something so specific was just distracting from the good in the game anyway

 

[babelfisch]

Still doesn't address the fact this is bad RNG on top of RNG layers.

That isn't a fact, it's an opinion. Since the community is split 50/50 when it comes to RNG it can't be good or bad, it's just a matter of personal preference.

 

[excalibus]

Are you speaking for yourself or you dont want someone else to have conformity?

Which part of 'but me personally,' is unclear that I am speaking for myself?

You can have 'conformity' within the range of tolerances the 'rng' will give you , I will have 'variation' within the range of tolerances the 'rng' will give me

I am not begrudging anyone wanting conformity, what I would personally not like to see is cookie cutter crap when it comes to ship builds, it is the little variations and 'imperfections' and how pilots manage with those that will help shape and form different tactics and more fluid combat weather that be PVP or PVE combat (hopefullly).

Remember NPC's will also be getting engineering upgrades as well

 

[Zeta Legion]

I'm sure this has already been suggested, but why not allow for players to choose stats within a certain tolerance range, when they go over the threshold it starts to reduce other stats, or you can basically pick a 'surprise me' option that has the possibility of awarding better stats with lower negatives.

Also de-coupling the special abilities from the RNG stat modifications seems like it would make sense. After all these are fundamental changes to the operation of the module in question, so how could you achieve that just by tightening a few bolts or doing some rewiring or tune-ups? Take the multicannon for example; how in the deepest circles of hell do you give it mystical fire ammo by randomly tinkering with the gun, rather than having a special addon that loads the gun with incendiary rounds? These mods would require a substantial physical addition to the weapon rather than just a tune-up.

 

[anikaiful]

ED attracts a lot of "explorer" types that have nothing to do with combat and would rather combat were not part of the game.

Heh, combat is but a tedium (pvp or otherwise) ... not something anyone'd write home about. It's fun tho every now and then *shrug*

 

[Badben]

I've been wondering for a while how they might screw up the Engineers update, and this is definitely it. I know it's all already been said, but I want to say it too.

-Special Effects are too important to be random. If I get a wingmate shield regeneration laser I will scrap it 100% of the time because I only fly alone. This just adds grind, this game doesn't need more grind.

-Slot machines aren't games. There is nothing fun about slot machines, especially if you have to feed it. The fun in a game for me is planning and strategy, a slot machine has none of that. .

-It makes people jealous of others who have better upgrades.

-It's completely immersion breaking., engineering is not a black art. I've never upgraded my PC's ram, and had it then regenerate my wingmate's shields, that's stupid, that's not how science works.

I really try and stick up for Frontier when I can, but this is just too much, I can't defend this. I've been planning my ship build for over a month with the tidbits of info we've been fed. Imagining being able to tune it just right, having to take into account balancing factors and decide what's more important to me damage or heat and so on. But this just throws a huge wrench in those plans. You thought you'd be able to finally have more control on how to design your ship, LOL NO! HAHA, you take what we give you and you'll like it!

You know those slider ranges actually look cool, if I could control them. It's not hard to balance it either, just have them interconnected. Every time I change one slider, the others should move in accordance. Raise the damage, heat, wobble, power draw all go up too. And random special effects, are you kidding me? This is the icing on the cake, that's a defining aspect of the weapon, far too important to be random. I want what I want, you're just adding extra grind to it, and if there's one thing this game needs less of, it's grind.

 

[vrseven]

Which part of 'but me personally,' is unclear that I am speaking for myself?

You can have 'conformity' within the range of tolerances the 'rng' will give you , I will have 'variation' within the range of tolerances the 'rng' will give me

I am not begrudging anyone wanting conformity, what I would personally not like to see is cookie cutter crap when it comes to ship builds, it is the little variations and 'imperfections' and how pilots manage with those that will help shape and form different tactics and more fluid combat weather that be PVP or PVE combat (hopefullly).

Remember NPC's will also be getting engineering upgrades as well

Two players going through the same hoops get different results with one being better than the other. I wonder how lucky the NPCs will be at the wheel?

 

[Han Brannigan]

The engineers are going to be scattered across the bubble like chaff and will require reputation and referrals to even get any work out of them; the distances, grind, and possibly reputation maintenance are enough qualifiers already to get your hands on a special modification that may be essential to a build you want to play, or even just one you want to try out for a while.

To me, this is the best part of it. Instead of just getting a quick insta upgrade in your favorite flavor you actually have to invest time. I enjoy playing the game so I have nothing against investing time. Also in the end you will end up with an upgrade that has some meaning and story behind it ( remember when we did that [crazy stuff] just to get those extra big thrusters ) - instead of a generic +12 beam laser.

 

[excalibus]

I'm sure this has already been suggested, but why not allow for players to choose stats within a certain tolerance range, when they go over the threshold it starts to reduce other stats, or you can basically pick a 'surprise me' option that has the possibility of awarding better stats with lower negatives.

Also de-coupling the special abilities from the RNG stat modifications seems like it would make sense. After all these are fundamental changes to the operation of the module in question, so how could you achieve that just by tightening a few bolts or doing some rewiring or tune-ups? Take the multicannon for example; how in the deepest circles of hell do you give it mystical fire ammo by randomly tinkering with the gun, rather than having a special addon that loads the gun with incendiary rounds? These mods would require a substantial physical addition to the weapon rather than just a tune-up.

perhaps they use a bit of 1/2 inch titanium coated ceramic ducting and vent plasma exhaust over the canons barrel, as part of the upgrade and so for some commanders, the materials they supply are inferior and end up blocking the ducting and others are superior and end up allowing a flow of gasses through the ducting, with the result being the rounds are superheated on their way out?

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Two players going through the same hoops get different results with one being better than the other. I wonder how lucky the NPCs will be at the wheel?

and so it will depend how those 2 players ustilise the differences in their weapons as to any outcomes from using them yes?
I look forward to more engaging NPC's personally...
They have been overall too easy up until now...

 

[Vorxian]

I agree. An engineer should be able to craft an item to the same specifications EVERY time. If not then then they aren't engineers but instead are magicians or medicine men dealing in magic.

Well you have a point, every ship in the game is of EXACT specification. ALL Clippers are the same, all Vipers are the same, all Corvettes are the same.. There's no difference in specification.

All modules are identical. 7A thrusters are 7A thrusters, some don't operate 10% better than others.. So Engineers in the game, do have blueprints, can build stuff to the same specification.

I admit I am biased, I played Path of Exile long enough to know that fighting RNG for upgrades is BAD.

BAD.

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!

I would rather the process be harder, and absolute- than to have an infuriating, soul destroying random number generated success factor... Elite is about getting out there and doing 'stuff'. Not sitting in a station grinding dice.

 

[Han Brannigan]

-It makes people jealous of others who have better upgrades.

Are you jealous of those who have bigger ships?

-It's completely immersion breaking., engineering is not a black art. I've never upgraded my PC's ram, and had it then regenerate my wingmate's shields, that's stupid, that's not how science works.

The exact opposite is true. Those 'engineers' are tinkerers who go by trial and error. Would they be able to make a consistant product they'd work for The Empire, the Feds or maybe a shipbuilder ....
No these are the mad scientists who work away on remote planets exactly because they are not capable of producing the same thing over and over again ( not to talk about their social problems which leaves them incapable of working in teams )

I like it.

 

[OriginalBadBoy]

-Slot machines aren't games. There is nothing fun about slot machines, especially if you have to feed it. The fun in a game for me is planning and strategy, a slot machine has none of that. .

ALL video games use RNG to some degree or another, so you are constantly playing a slot machine regardless. Elite uses RNG at its core, its how it functions as a game, yes its predetermined RNG, but its RNG nevertheless.

Games ARE slot machines (under the hood) so your assumption is way off I'm afraid.

 

[babelfisch]

Also de-coupling the special abilities from the RNG stat modifications seems like it would make sense. After all these are fundamental changes to the operation of the module in question, so how could you achieve that just by tightening a few bolts or doing some rewiring or tune-ups? Take the multicannon for example; how in the deepest circles of hell do you give it mystical fire ammo by randomly tinkering with the gun, rather than having a special addon that loads the gun with incendiary rounds? These mods would require a substantial physical addition to the weapon rather than just a tune-up.

Maybe they try to add that special effect every time they are modifying your weapon, but there is a 25% chance that they fail to add it?

 

[vrseven]

perhaps they use a bit of 1/2 inch titanium coated ceramic ducting and vent plasma exhaust over the canons barrel, as part of the upgrade and so for some commanders, the materials they supply are inferior and end up blocking the ducting and others are superior and end up allowing a flow of gasses through the ducting, with the result being the rounds are superheated on their way out?

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and so it will depend how those 2 players ustilise the differences in their weapons as to any outcomes from using them yes?
I look forward to more engaging NPC's personally...
They have been overall too easy up until now...

In a perfect universe yes. But ED combat quitting will be in FULL effect. It is happening already.

 

[Zeta Legion]

perhaps they use a bit of 1/2 inch titanium coated ceramic ducting and vent plasma exhaust over the canons barrel, as part of the upgrade and so for some commanders, the materials they supply are inferior and end up blocking the ducting and others are superior and end up allowing a flow of gasses through the ducting, with the result being the rounds are superheated on their way out?

You know what, that sounds like shockingly poor design.

I hope it'll be reflected in the weapon model. It'll look like something the Orks from the WH40k universe would cobble together and be twice as useless

 

[Han Brannigan]

All modules are identical.

Until you hand them to a mad man with distain for quality control.

7A thrusters are 7A thrusters, some don't operate 10% better than others.

.

If you stick with the ones built by the big companies yes

So Engineers in the game, do have blueprints, can build stuff to the same specification.

THOSE kind of engineers work for Gutamaya or Saud Kruger or....