Engineer weapon crafting needs to be rethought (if what we suspect is true)

ALL video games use RNG to some degree or another, so you are constantly playing a slot machine regardless. Elite uses RNG at its core, its how it functions as a game, yes its predetermined RNG, but its RNG nevertheless.

Games ARE slot machines (under the hood) so your assumption is way off I'm afraid.

Okay, first off, not all games use RNG and not all games use RNG to the same extent. You never roll a dice when playing chess. When playing a game of World of Tanks, there is some RNG involved every time you fire, but these merely add variety to the situations you end up in, and with smart play you can limit the effects of randomness. But certainly at no point does the game roll a dice at the start of the game to tell you which tank you can play.
Now there are games which do roll a dice to tell you what you can play. A lot of rogue-lites rely heavily on RNG to give you access to various weapons/abilities/upgrades, and that will heavily shape your playthrough. Well guess what, not everybody likes these games. Early D&D used to limit the class you could play based purely on dice rolls. Virtually everybody agrees this was bad, and most RPGs these days have moved away from it.
There is something to be said about playing the hand you're given and making lemonade... but that kind of game is usually tailored towards a special type of player. Not everybody likes that, some people enjoy more control and fairness in how they get to play their game. That doesn't mean absolute control, but there are degrees of uncertainty people enjoy more than others. And you'd think that if a sizeable part of your playerbase already resents absence of control, it would be quite risky to implement more elements taking control away from the player. The popularity of coriolis.io and the various trade tools should attest to the fact that more randomness and lack of control is something many aren't interested in.

And the worst part about the critics about min-maxing and 'cookie cutter builds'? Most of you aren't interested in min-maxing or using sensible builds for that matter. So what should it matter to you whether some people retain control over their game? What should it matter if Frontier added a reasonably deterministic crafting system for those who really can't stand RNG, if they kept the lottery as an option for you?
 
ohh thankyou for explaining that to me Sleutelbos

So to summarize ... to grind is to be an idiot? :D Phew, I am glad I am not grinding, I would hate to be an idiot :D

Yes. :) two people can chose to do the same thing, for example hi-res. One is having fun, the other complains its a grind. The second person should try something else, but wont because he is an idiot. :p
 
ALL video games use RNG to some degree or another, so you are constantly playing a slot machine regardless. Elite uses RNG at its core, its how it functions as a game, yes its predetermined RNG, but its RNG nevertheless.

Games ARE slot machines (under the hood) so your assumption is way off I'm afraid.

When I craft something in the Withcher, or in Skyrim, there is no randomness, I know what I'm getting before I do it, that means that they are not slot machines, they allow me to choose how I upgrade something. Upgrading a weapon in ED gives me a random special effect, that makes it a slot machine. There is no reason ED could not change this, it's not like everything in ED needs to be random for technical reasons because it has RNG at it's core as you say. Your argument is purposefully misinterpreting what I'm saying and offering a response that makes no sense. I think special effects should not be random, you have not made any argument against that statement.
 
Okay, first off, not all games use RNG and not all games use RNG to the same extent. You never roll a dice when playing chess. When playing a game of World of Tanks, there is some RNG involved every time you fire, but these merely add variety to the situations you end up in, and with smart play you can limit the effects of randomness. But certainly at no point does the game roll a dice at the start of the game to tell you which tank you can play.
Now there are games which do roll a dice to tell you what you can play. A lot of rogue-lites rely heavily on RNG to give you access to various weapons/abilities/upgrades, and that will heavily shape your playthrough. Well guess what, not everybody likes these games. Early D&D used to limit the class you could play based purely on dice rolls. Virtually everybody agrees this was bad, and most RPGs these days have moved away from it.
There is something to be said about playing the hand you're given and making lemonade... but that kind of game is usually tailored towards a special type of player. Not everybody likes that, some people enjoy more control and fairness in how they get to play their game. That doesn't mean absolute control, but there are degrees of uncertainty people enjoy more than others. And you'd think that if a sizeable part of your playerbase already resents absence of control, it would be quite risky to implement more elements taking control away from the player. The popularity of coriolis.io and the various trade tools should attest to the fact that more randomness and lack of control is something many aren't interested in.

And the worst part about the critics about min-maxing and 'cookie cutter builds'? Most of you aren't interested in min-maxing or using sensible builds for that matter. So what should it matter to you whether some people retain control over their game? What should it matter if Frontier added a reasonably deterministic crafting system for those who really can't stand RNG, if they kept the lottery as an option for you?
check this out https://youtu.be/lSfdQ4wWQIw?t=2m18s does that not look reasonably deterministic to you? the player wanted a better shielded distributor and got one better than he was expecting, the horror. i started the vid in the right place for you just in case you've got to much spag in your eyes [big grin]
 
Yes. :) two people can chose to do the same thing, for example hi-res. One is having fun, the other complains its a grind. The second person should try something else, but wont because he is an idiot. :p

That's not true, the second person stays there because he needs more money to buy a Cutter and he needs to buy a Cutter because he wants to make more money at the hi-res. Wait... I think I get your point...
 
That's not true, the second person stays there because he needs more money to buy a Cutter and he needs to buy a Cutter because he wants to make more money at the hi-res. Wait... I think I get your point...

Right, he's stupid because he's buying a Cutter for RES hunting instead of buying it for trading.
 
Right, he's stupid because he's buying a Cutter for RES hunting instead of buying it for trading.

Now that they've confirmed you can change ship maneuverability, the Cutter is potentially looking a lot better for combat. Allowing people to manually fix that turn rate is awesome and what Engineers should be all about IMO. Bringing ships and builds back into the fold for whatever role people want.
 
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If you get commodities as a by-product of doing a mission that you're enjoying doing, then in what way is it a grind? I swear you're just being argumentative.

Then grind is that you end up redoing the same modification time and time again in order to get the optimal roll on the stats and (when applicable) the special mod you desire. For example, as I mentioned before, I want my lasers blue. I already have to basically forget about getting blue lasers on all my ships, so I may very well just stick to my primaries (FDL and Python). So I have to play the slot machine for each laser until it rolls a) decent stats and b) the correct special mod. If the stats are crap, reroll. If there is no or the wrong special mod, reroll. Out of mats, go and collect some more.

Just getting some mods and doing a few mods here and there, accepting whatever the outcome, sure, that is not a grind. But as soon as you have a loadout in mind that you are planning for, it sure is.

And unlike any previous notion of grind, this is a very specific one. You need the correct materials, in the correct proportions. But you may instead end up with an excess of material A and a tiny amount of material B - the bottleneck is the material with the greatest rarity. Plus commodities, which are also limited by how numerous you can acquire them (again, some only found rare in space or from mission rewards), and the amount of cargo you can even carry.

Heck, to begin with, you'd need a cargo bay even if the ship loadout normally precludes it.


Now compare this with the grind we had pre 2.1. With the exception of faction-rank-locked ships (a concept I also have been in disagreement with), you needed credits. There are like a hundred different ways to earn credits. You go out and play and at the end of the day you have money to spend on ships and outfitting.

For engineers, you need to go out of your way to find the correct materials and commodities in the correct proportions and deliver them to that one unique place that has the item you want - and then it is a gamble whether you even get the item you want.
 

I think it's definitely more along THOSE lines ;)

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Then grind is that you end up redoing the same modification time and time again in order to get the optimal roll on the stats and (when applicable) the special mod you desire. For example, as I mentioned before, I want my lasers blue. I already have to basically forget about getting blue lasers on all my ships, so I may very well just stick to my primaries (FDL and Python). So I have to play the slot machine for each laser until it rolls a) decent stats and b) the correct special mod. If the stats are crap, reroll. If there is no or the wrong special mod, reroll. Out of mats, go and collect some more.

Just getting some mods and doing a few mods here and there, accepting whatever the outcome, sure, that is not a grind. But as soon as you have a loadout in mind that you are planning for, it sure is.

And unlike any previous notion of grind, this is a very specific one. You need the correct materials, in the correct proportions. But you may instead end up with an excess of material A and a tiny amount of material B - the bottleneck is the material with the greatest rarity. Plus commodities, which are also limited by how numerous you can acquire them (again, some only found rare in space or from mission rewards), and the amount of cargo you can even carry.

Heck, to begin with, you'd need a cargo bay even if the ship loadout normally precludes it.


Now compare this with the grind we had pre 2.1. With the exception of faction-rank-locked ships (a concept I also have been in disagreement with), you needed credits. There are like a hundred different ways to earn credits. You go out and play and at the end of the day you have money to spend on ships and outfitting.

For engineers, you need to go out of your way to find the correct materials and commodities in the correct proportions and deliver them to that one unique place that has the item you want - and then it is a gamble whether you even get the item you want.

Completely agree, it is Path Of Exiles crafting system in ED.

I used the same sausage machine in one of my posts yesterday lol. Good choice of depiction!
 
Let's hope the process / missions / collecting is actually enjoyable... :)

Like all grinds, it is subject to efficiency and optimization. So you need to cargo scoop materials, which can drop from destroyed ships. To cut short several steps of thought, we end with an approach that includes a large-ish ship like the Python or Anaconda, with a cargo bay full of limpets and a collector limpet controller* for fast looting, because you don't want to spend a minute chasing the dropped materials all the time when you have to collect hundreds of them.

*Assuming materials in space can be collected by limpets. If not, have fun gathering material in one of the slow and big ships...
 
I think that many don't realise how much grind it will be to equip a ship the way one wants.

Binomial probabilties get nasty quick when the desired outcome is multiple low occurrences.

But some want to do fun missions with improved AI on smoother running planetary surfaces, while being paid in materials we can use to give our ship its own personality and quirks. So we'll have fun, and you'll be groaning in the hamster wheel. To each his own, I guess.
 
But some want to do fun missions with improved AI on smoother running planetary surfaces, while being paid in materials we can use to give our ship its own personality and quirks. So we'll have fun, and you'll be groaning in the hamster wheel. To each his own, I guess.

I will be upgrading my exploration conda and ASP ez pz (no special mods here), while a lot of combat focused players trying to get two MC with heat rounds and two beam lasers with whatever mod they'll want will cry.

I don't give a damn beyond exposing the consequences of binomial probs + low occurances.
 
And the worst part about the critics about min-maxing and 'cookie cutter builds'? Most of you aren't interested in min-maxing or using sensible builds for that matter. So what should it matter to you whether some people retain control over their game? What should it matter if Frontier added a reasonably deterministic crafting system for those who really can't stand RNG, if they kept the lottery as an option for you?

Oh .. we're pretty much all interested in using "sensible builds" (at least most of the time ... my Orca, 'Red Wine and Cheese included", is quite pointless in a min/maxing context, but fun to fly:). We just prefer variation and surprises. THink of it as buying a Kinder-Surprise egg. Min/Maxer go to the shop with a scale, weight the damned thing and can infer from the serial number, release date and position of the moon EXACTLY what will be inside. They only buy the eggs with smurf figures in them because the rest is not "valuable". The non mix/maxer just take an egg and HOPE to get a smurf figure. Sometimes they do, soimetimes they don't .. sometimes they get something completely unexpected that is MUCH more fun than a smurf figure, even though it is probably less valuable.

The moment you write exactly what's inside on the surprise egg everybody will just buy those with smurf figures because the whole surprise thing isn't there anymore. Nobody will try to find an egg with something "unexpected" because there is no "unexpected" anymore. In short : everything gets a whole lot duller, smurf figures loses their value due to inflation and the min/maxer start to complain that they need more variety because everyone is sporting a stealth smurf with quad plasmas.

tl;dr : People are like water, they go the way of the lesser resistance and eventually nobody goes off route.
 
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