Engineers are progessive series of upgrades vs. one time shop

Engineers is not a goal. It is nice side upgrade path offering you gradual upgrades in new version.

It absolutely is a goal.

FSD ranging, clean thrusters, lightweight hulls, scanner upgrades.

Can you even quantify how much time saved that equates to on an Expedition to Beagle Point?

Loads

Same goes for FSD range, shields and thrusters if you're on a trading frenzy. Time between stations chopped by 30%?

To say "it doesn't really matter" then go all OCD about it is just plain weird.
 
Elite: Dangerous -- Blaze your own trail, but beware of setting A GOAL.

Setting a goal is fine. You have to be realistic about reaching it though. Grind is a mindset in the end and people with too much unlocks in their mind tied to goals will suffer in the end. That's how life goes.
 
It absolutely is a goal.

FSD ranging, clean thrusters, lightweight hulls, scanner upgrades.

Can you even quantify how much time saved that equates to on an Expedition to Beagle Point?

Loads

Same goes for FSD range, shields and thrusters if you're on a trading frenzy. Time between stations chopped by 30%?

To say "it doesn't really matter" then go all OCD about it is just plain weird.

You don't set your goal to get to Beagle point. You get there eventually. Just so, you know.
 
Engineers is not a goal. It is nice side upgrade path offering you gradual upgrades in new version.

Sure, but the current way of simply picking the grade you want and rolling it is far preferable to the proposed way of grinding through all of the grades to get there. The current way isn't broke so why break it? Why make using the engineers a worse experience? THAT's the issue.
 
I have a feeling that casual players like me don't care about G5 rolls outright. What is so hard to understand in that? Yes, I will reach G5 at some point. I will get Anaconda at that point.

However, I am not dead set on doing that. Game allows me upgrade it casually. With materials broker even so.

You view it "I set a goal to get G5, and I get bored doing so". Yes, because you set A GOAL.

Engineers is not a goal. It is nice side upgrade path offering you gradual upgrades in new version.

I have a feeling that anybody who doesn't care about G5 rolls should probably stop flapping their gums in an attempt to tell others what to think about them.

It doesn't matter whether you're interested in G5 mod's now.
If you're only interested in g1 or G2 mod's, you are totally free to apply them however you see fit.

A time will inevitably come, however, when you have earned enough rep' with an engineer to apply G5 mod's.

When that time comes, you would, using the current system, be able to rock up at an engineer in a new ship, make 2 or 3 rolls and know that you're somewhere near as good as it gets.
With the new system, you will know that you will ALWAYS have to make G1 rolls, G2 rolls, G3 rolls and G4 rolls before you can make a G5 roll.

How is this, in any way, "better"?
 
Sure, but the current way of simply picking the grade you want and rolling it is far preferable to the proposed way of grinding through all of the grades to get there. The current way isn't broke so why break it? Why make using the engineers a worse experience? THAT's the issue.

It is G5 upgrade shop. Then remove Engineers then.

Obviously FD sees it as completely different system as you do. That's not making experience worse (well, it is worse from your POV, but different from general gameplay's POV).

Anyway, I am not fan of maxim approach to things, but I am not here to convince you. I just think FD approach is justified seeing broader scale of things. Anyway, cheers, have to finish jumps to Oracle.
 
It is G5 upgrade shop. Then remove Engineers then.

Obviously FD sees it as completely different system as you do. That's not making experience worse (well, it is worse from your POV, but different from general gameplay's POV).

Anyway, I am not fan of maxim approach to things, but I am not here to convince you. I just think FD approach is justified seeing broader scale of things. Anyway, cheers, have to finish jumps to Oracle.

This is a truly scary attitude.

We have something that, basically, works.
Sure, finding mat's sucks, the RNG sucks and then it sucks some more in regard to secondaries.
In fact, about the only part of the process that doesn't suck is that, having made the required effort, you can go and get any mod' you have the mat's for.

And that's the part that you want to see changed so it sucks as well.

And then you're saying "If people think it sucks then maybe they should get rid of it completely". [blah]
 
Anyway, I am not fan of maxim approach to things, but I am not here to convince you.

I don't care about an easy path to maxing things either, but I do care about adding new timesinks to a game which already has too many. I also care about removing player choice to instead force them into a grind. I just don't understand the reasoning from a game mechanic design point of view, it seems to needlessly punish players for wanting to use a feature when the current already existing method does not. The only thing it will accomplish is to dissuade players from using the engineers, which runs counter to the entire point of the revamp.
 
I don't care about an easy path to maxing things either, but I do care about adding new timesinks to a game which already has too many. I also care about removing player choice to instead force them into a grind. I just don't understand the reasoning from a game mechanic design point of view, it seems to needlessly punish players for wanting to use a feature when the current already existing method does not. The only thing it will accomplish is to dissuade players from using the engineers, which runs counter to the entire point of the revamp.

Exactly.

It's like they've planned all this stuff one step at a time without paying any attention to what they hope to achieve.

What DO we think they hope to achieve?
Close the gap between "normal" players and those who go nuts with engineering?
Make engineering a simpler process?
Make engineering a less time-consuming process?

I mean, there's nothing wrong with getting rid of the RNG.
I can see why they'd want to get rid of secondaries. It's a shame they can't be kept but without the RNG but, c'est la vie.

This whole thing with forcing players to go up through tiers with every mod, though?
What purpose does it serve?

PvPers and min/maxers already do a heap of rolls for every mod'. Hell, the new system might even be better for them.
For the rest of us, however, it means we'll be doing 20+ rolls for EVERY mod', instead of 2 or 3 G5 rolls.

Does that help close the gap between normal players and min/maxers? Nope!
Does it make engineering a simpler process? Nope!
Does it make engineering less time-consuming? NOPE!

What IS the point?
It's like we've all been teleported to planet stupid and there's only a few of us who've noticed.
 
What IS the point?

The only thing that i can come up with is that it gets rid of the initial craft&trash orgy of some irrelevant module to rank up to five. Well, my solution would have been to get rid of ranks and just offer G1-5 after unlock - or come up with some meaningful gameplay to unlock ranks. It seems their solution was to make you craft&trash meaningful modules, hence force you to carry heaps of all kinds of common materials around, and not just iron and sulfur.
 
I thought I had an opinion on this topic, but now IDT I'm invested enough in engineering my ships to form anything really solid.

It seems like this might make less rolling to get to the super top on a per-module basis compared to RNGesusing it up, due to the more stable progression; but then increase the overall amount of racking (mats) and rolling across the whole of a player's engineering time due to going 1-5 every time. Is that the main vibe?
 
What IS the point?
It's like we've all been teleported to planet stupid and there's only a few of us who've noticed.

Request this as a ring tone.

Well, my solution would have been to get rid of ranks and just offer G1-5 after unlock

Yes please

- or come up with some meaningful gameplay to unlock ranks.

Yes please

It seems their solution was to make you craft&trash meaningful modules, hence force you to carry heaps of all kinds of common materials around, and not just iron and sulfur.

Yes to all of that.

Only thing I'd expand is come up with meaningful gameplay to harvest much more available mats in order to feed the engineers system. Which for me was the huge problem with it, and doesn't seem to be addressed further than the quick fix of a Mats Broker.

All of that and Engineers is pleasant.

Instead we get the game play equivalent of turning week old underwear inside out.

It saddens me that I'm not able to communicate what we are actually running into with fixed top values and diminishing returns. We are just beating a small, relative harmless devil, while the big one sits grinning in the background... :(

It's game design 101, hosted by Dr Faustus.

It seems like this might make less rolling to get to the super top on a per-module basis compared to RNGesusing it up, due to the more stable progression; but then increase the overall amount of racking (mats) and rolling across the whole of a player's engineering time due to going 1-5 every time. Is that the main vibe?

As far as I can tell, yeah. With the Mats Broker limitations becoming the make or break function, as to whether one meaningful ship upgrade takes a couple of hours or a week. Taking bets on how comprehensive the capabilities of the Broker will be. What are the odds the mats you need for Palin are only available from the broker in Alioth in rares quantities? Fingers crossed everyone has the permit and a ship already engineered to a 60ly jump range.
 
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The only thing that i can come up with is that it gets rid of the initial craft&trash orgy of some irrelevant module to rank up to five. Well, my solution would have been to get rid of ranks and just offer G1-5 after unlock - or come up with some meaningful gameplay to unlock ranks. It seems their solution was to make you craft&trash meaningful modules, hence force you to carry heaps of all kinds of common materials around, and not just iron and sulfur.

Are they getting rid of the basic "access tiers"?

Even if they are I don't think that argument holds any water.
I can currently go to an engineer and gain access to every level with 3 rolls per level. Mission Accomplished.
After that, every subsequent mod' will only ever require the G5 mat's I actually need for my intended mod.

With the new system, I need to do 3(?)x G1 rolls, 3xG2 rolls, 3xG3 rolls, 3xG4 rolls and I'm at level 5.
That's still at least 12 rolls to get to level 5 - exactly the same as the current system.
But that's just for one module.
After that, for every subsequent module you have to find, and waste, the mat's for 12 rolls to get to G5 along with the mat's required for the intended mod'.

By the time you've engineered, say, 10 G5 FSDs, you'd have had to find and use the mat's for around 150 rolls using the new system instead of around 40 using the current system.


And I flat-out don't buy the whole "it's better for a casual player" thing.

Currently, if you want a G1 mod, you just need to show up and you can roll a G1 mod.
If you want G2 you can show up, make 3 or 4 G1 rolls and then you're ready to go with G2.
This'll be exactly the same procedure under the new system.
The only difference will be (as with G5 mod's) that you'll have to do that with every subsequent mod' instead of having direct access to G2 mod's.

Which brings me back to my previous question: This is "better"... how?
 
Which brings me back to my previous question: This is "better"... how?

It's not, not at all. I was just saying that at least you cannot magically unlock the G5 long range FSD by crafttrashing 150 blast resistant G1 shield boosters. Instead, you have to crafttrash all G1/2/3/4 FSD long range mods. In that regard it - superficially - makes more "sense", if you can say that about improving something by crafttrashing in the first place. For me you replace a nonsensical nuisance with horrendous tedium.

But yeah i agree with everyone else that once unlocked to max rank engineers were fine. RNG was silly, wheel of fortune even more, but still it was ok. Just the mats gathering and all the alt tabbing was a pain.

I hope the compromise will at least be that we have to unlock all ranks for each module (in contrast to unlocking all modules at once), but they stay unlocked once that is done.
 
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