Engineers are progessive series of upgrades vs. one time shop

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I just want to put this one out there as it is more and more evident that there's certain clash of thinking between vocal group of players and developers.

This group wants max out ships, and want them fast. It is endgoal. G1 to G4 basically are throwaways, they don't matter. Even with improved offer from FD which promises guarantee that each level will be better than previous one, and provide ways how to exchange materials you need, and store them - even then it is not good, they still basically want it all at min cost in time and resources.

In same time we have threads who say Engineers have destroyed Open, PvP and what not with power creep what's introduced.

So how it's gonna be?

Do we just cry and stamp and follow least path of current because it is "how it is in reality and how we are used to max out our ships"?

Or we allow real evolution and progression to take place?

And for 'grind' don't get me started, it all can be and will be balanced. Just stop being so greedy sometimes. And stop claiming you know what 'new players' or 'casuals' want.

 

[AtrociKitty]

There's nothing that can be done about the balance of engineer mods at this point. Too many people have them, and Frontier isn't going to take that effort away now. That's why existing mods are going to be grandfathered into the new system.

As for progression vs single-step, engineering should definitely be a progression. Like everything else in the game, from rep to naval rank, you need to work your way up; it's the same reason why you can't buy a Corvette right off the bat. And as someone who probably has more of a "casual" play style, a progression system is preferable to anyone with limited playtime. If you're not seeking to make an apex PvP ship and rather are looking to experience most aspects of the game, having mods divided into tiers lets players get their feet wet and have a try at modifying their ship without too much investment. If you change your mind later, or already participate in PvP, there's nothing stopping you from taking the time to reach the higher tiers.

 

[trinita]

If i may give you a word of advice Cmdr Eagleboy, that's not the best way to frame a conversation. If you wanna have a mature conversation, you shouldn't open it by depicting anyone who might disagree with you in a disparaging light.

I still haven't made up my mind about the changes to the engineers; From what i gathered so far, some of the proposed chages do indeed look pretty bad, but then again, i haven't given it much thought yet, and my concerns might turn out to be completely unfounded.

But i can tell you one thing: i don't belong to that "group" u referred to in your post (and by "group" i mean "that disparaging generalization of those who might disagree with you").
infact not all of my ships' modules are engineered and those which are engineered are usually g3 or g4.
Also, maxing out my ships is not my endgoal. Infact it doesn't even rate among my priorities.
As for being "greedy", the only thing i'm greedy about is time..... which is why i don't spend much time concerning myself with upgrading my ships.
And finally, i don't claim to know what other people want..... heck i don't even claim to know what i want (as i said, i'm still not sure where i stand on theese changes, and, although they don't quite look like an improvement to me at first sight, i might well end up changing my mind).[smile]

to cut it short: you wanna argue your point? great. But don't get on a soapbox and try to lecture those who might disagree with you, even before they had a chance to actually argue their own points: that's not the start of a healthy debate.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

For someone who flies unengineered, the OP sure seems invested in how everyone else should do it.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

For someone who flies unengineered, the OP sure seems invested in how everyone else should do it.

Because reason why I fly unengineered, is reason why and how Engineers are treated. If it is glorified max G5 shop, I don't care.

It seems you are not really willing even entertain idea of people playing game differently. Some people don't want to MAX. In fact, majority of them. But it goes rat race way, I want to stay away from it.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I think the intention is to have to do ONE engineer roll per grade....not having to max out a grade before you can get another, so it would take you 5 rolls to get a grade 5 roll. That's not THAT bad. Certainly not something I'm going to be up in arms about...especially if they raise the limits for materials to 100 of each.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

I think the intention is to have to do ONE engineer roll per grade....not having to max out a grade before you can get another, so it would take you 5 rolls to get a grade 5 roll. That's not THAT bad. Certainly not something I'm going to be up in arms about...especially if they raise the limits for materials to 100 of each.

Sandro said that in their testing so far, it's just less than 3 rolls per grade. That suggests that there's still some RNG in the to account for.

 

[Urbanski101]

For some mods (very few) the lower tiers offer some advantages.

But for most they don't really.

E.g. if you want your ship to go faster you are probably going to engineer DD, so why stop at tier 1 when tier 5 offers much greater increments of power. There may be certain ships/builds where you don't want to generate that much heat but on the whole you will want DD tier 5.

The 1-4 tier rolls then become a pointless waste of time and resource, roll after roll of unwanted results just to get to tier 5. That is not fun or rewarding.

I'd be happier if the tiers where unlocked by running missions like you do with faction rank. At least you'd be playing the game not just sitting there clicking a button dozens of times to progress through the ranks.

You have to factor in human nature...if you offer 5 tiers each one better than the last it's only natural to want to progress to the top tier....otherwise why have it?

Not everyone will feel the need to get the top tier but I'd wager that the majority would. I personally have very few lvl 5 rolls on my mods, it's just too much effort but I do like the advantages engineering brings and there are a few mods that I feel just make the QoL and the game better i.e. FSD range engineering

So either redesign engineers without tiers in some completely different way like using the rarity of materials to determine the quality of the engineering or do what FDev propose which will end up wasting the players time performing endless unwanted rolls to get what they actually want.

 

[Stealthie]

Yes, we should all just stop attempting to create the best mod's possible and just be happy to accept mediocre mod's instead.

Given that people are currently happy to make hundreds of rolls in the hope that RNGesus will bless them with a god-roll, I'm certain that a linear progression through 5 ranks, which will inevitably end with a certain G5 god-roll, will definitely deter people from choosing to do this and in no way will be a complete waste of time and effort.

And now I'm off to have some blood-letting done to cure me of demonic possession.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

For some mods (very few) the lower tiers offer some advantages.

But for most they don't really.

Advantages compare to what? And new system will offer mandatory improvement over previous grade.

Yes, we should all just stop attempting to create the best mod's possible and just be happy to accept mediocre mod's instead.

No one will forbid to grind it to max. It shouldn't be main goal of Engineering system in my opinion, that's all. That's why I am in favor of progression system.

I am not saying game shouldn't allow to do something, but it shouldn't be balanced and tailored against max gameplay. Yes, there are games who do that, but not every game benefits from such approach in whole.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Because reason why I fly unengineered, is reason why Engineers are treated. If it is glorified max G5 shop, I don't care.

It seems you are not really willing even entertain idea of people playing game differently. Some people don't want to MAX. In fact, majority of them. But it goes rat race way, I want to stay away from it.

So please, don't care and leave it to people who do.

I do care. It's my precious game time that Sandro want's me to waste gathering materials that I'm going to throw away because I'd like to at least get something in the region of maximum performance from my ships.

I do not have the time to gather the materials required to do well from the current random god roll scenario. But I have already put my time in to unlock the engineers and access the best they have to offer and take my chances on a few rolls.

Apparently, I've done the enormous sum total of 79 G5 rolls. That's counting all modules on all my ships.
Half of those were based on materials I happened to have, the other half specifically sought out.
I maybe have another 30 rolls lined up, but that's all I've got the stomach for right now.

If the planned changes go through, then it's likely that I'll never buy another ship.
If that happens, then at some point I'll just stop playing.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Sandro said that in their testing so far, it's just less than 3 rolls per grade. That suggests that there's still some RNG in the to account for.

yes there's still some RNG involved...but with 3 rolls per grade, it's not RNG that bothers me...it's the extra grind. now you're talking 12 rolls to get to grade 5. THAT's starting to push the bounds of good nature.

 

[Mengy]

And for 'grind' don't get me started, it all can be and will be balanced. Just stop being so greedy sometimes. And stop claiming you know what 'new players' or 'casuals' want.

You need to start heeding your own advice IMHO and stop telling other people what to think or feel.

No one wants the engineers to become more grindy than they already are, and the proposed grade grind does exactly that. Hence the majority opinion that it's a terrible idea. The last thing Elite needs is greater time sinks.

 

[Stealthie]

No one will forbid to grind it to max. It shouldn't be main goal of Engineering system in my opinion, that's all. That's why I am in favor of progression system.

I am not saying game shouldn't allow to do something, but it shouldn't be balanced and tailored against max gameplay. Yes, there are games who do that, but not every game benefits from such approach in whole.

The problem is, I can currently take a module to an engineer, make 2 or 3 G5 rolls on it and end up with a perfectly serviceable upgrade.

In future, it seems that I will have to take a module to an engineer, make G1 roll(s) on it, then G2 roll(s), then G3 and then G4 before I can make a G5 roll on it.

To be blunt, this new idea seems pants-on-head to me, if that's what it will require.


And I'd certainly get a laugh out of reading somebody attempt to provide an in-universe explanation for why it should work like this.

 

[Urbanski101]

Advantages compare to what? And new system will offer mandatory improvement over previous grade.



No one will forbid to grind it to max. It shouldn't be main goal of Engineering system in my opinion, that's all. That's why I am in favor of progression system.

I am not saying game shouldn't allow to do something, but it shouldn't be balanced and tailored against max gameplay. Yes, there are games who do that, but not every game benefits from such approach in whole.

Honestly I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. You don't want there to be engineering? You don't want tier 1-5 engineering? You don't think players should want to engineer their ships? Any of these, all of these? I'm really struggling to see what you're trying to say.

Also who is greedy...I don't get that. We didn't design the game, we are just playing what we're given by FDev.

 

[Gun Star]

Some of us who actually put in the effort of to unlock them and get all the mats to G5 (You still have to go from G1-G5 in the current system. You just keep that lvl once you reach it). Like being able to buy a new ship and take it to get G5'd. This new thing is pretty much telling us our effort is useless and doing the "grind" was pointless. We are rewarding you with a brand new grind!

It would be like me telling you that system you spent hours getting allied would go back to being less then cordial every time you left the station and you would have to start from scratch every time you dock there to get the allied missions.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

The problem is, I can currently take a module to an engineer, make 2 or 3 G5 rolls on it and end up with a perfectly serviceable upgrade.

In future, it seems that I will have to take a module to an engineer, make G1 roll(s) on it, then G2 roll(s), then G3 and then G4 before I can make a G5 roll on it.

To be blunt, this new idea seems pants-on-head to me, if that's what it will require.


And I'd certainly get a laugh out of reading somebody attempt to provide an in-universe explanation for why it should work like this.

Because it is progression, not 'I pick you G4 for my module'. It is not planned as grade shop.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Because it is progression, not 'I pick you G4 for my module'. It is not planned as grade shop.

.... then why was it implemented as one?

My point being that the proposed change to gate each higher grade of modification behind, on average, 2.8 rolls at the lower grade(s) is a barrier to access compared to the system that we have now.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

.... then why was it implemented as one?

That's good question for another day.

Fact is FD want to reverse it's own knee jerking and do it proper progression this time.

Fact that people are used to do something one way shouldn't be something that stop us to at least to think about it differently.

I don't want G5 rat race. That and only that is major reason why I don't take part. Yes, new system will have similar paths within it, but they won't be visibly reachable - thus progression.

And proposal might be a trash and Engineers might have to be removed, I don't know. But at least entertain idea of doing things differently.

 

[Stealthie]

Because it is progression, not 'I pick you G4 for my module'. It is not planned as grade shop.

I know what it is.
I already gave you my opinion of what it is.

My other question was to ask why it'll be that way?