Britain will vote on whether to remain in the EU on Thursday 23 June, Prime Minister David Cameron has said.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35621079
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35621079
- Thread starter Surfinjo
- Start date
I personally doubt any "vote" will make the slightest difference
We will remain in the EU regardless of what the public want - mark my words
There are far far too many rich and powerful individuals with vested interests to allow joe public to influence their balance books
The illusion of democracy is just that - we are in Europe for the long term regardless
Personally I would love us to leave just to see if there was any actual tangible difference however it wont ever happen
We will remain in the EU regardless of what the public want - mark my words
There are far far too many rich and powerful individuals with vested interests to allow joe public to influence their balance books
The illusion of democracy is just that - we are in Europe for the long term regardless
Personally I would love us to leave just to see if there was any actual tangible difference however it wont ever happen
Have a suspicion of that happening as well.
But will it quiet the antis?
Will it push the pros to start to defend the EU against the onslaught of petty lies from the Mail and Express?
It is all going to happen again in a few more years?
Well, we managed very well up until 1974 when "cut prices at a stroke" Heath lied about EU membership only being a trading partnership.
Compounded by John "The s" Major (himself a bit of a backstabber) with Maastricht.
I think as the second richest nation in the EEC and currently a net contributor not a net beneficiary we can manage quite well without the rest of them. IMHO.
Just watch as the politically controlled media starts to tell us how awful it would be outside of the EEC.
Restore our national sovereignty and give Europe the boot.
Compounded by John "The s" Major (himself a bit of a backstabber) with Maastricht.
I think as the second richest nation in the EEC and currently a net contributor not a net beneficiary we can manage quite well without the rest of them. IMHO.
Just watch as the politically controlled media starts to tell us how awful it would be outside of the EEC.
Restore our national sovereignty and give Europe the boot.
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It's obvious that the majority of the dwellers inside the Westminster bubble want to stay in the EU, so we are definitely staying in.
If the vote doesn't go their way (current polls show it will go against them) they'll drag their feet (Chilcott style) claiming each part must be researched then renegotiated individually prior to leaving and play for time. After that's gone on for long enough (a decade maybe) they'll say the old vote happened so long ago it's no longer valid and we should hold a new one.
Repeat until the vote goes their way, then claim the people have spoken and never hold another vote. It's not about winning the argument it's about controlling the narrative.
Interestingly enough we only find ourselves in this position (opposition to the EU exceeding support) because the stupid end of the press and most politicians have been using the EU as an excuse and a scapegoat for the last 20 years.
Personally I want to stay in the EU and will vote that way, I just don't think we live in a real democracy and pretending we have a say in this is waste of everyone's time. My primary reason for liking the EU is the longest period of sustained European peace since the human race sussed out writing things down, this is never mentioned but we are currently living in a golden age.
If the vote doesn't go their way (current polls show it will go against them) they'll drag their feet (Chilcott style) claiming each part must be researched then renegotiated individually prior to leaving and play for time. After that's gone on for long enough (a decade maybe) they'll say the old vote happened so long ago it's no longer valid and we should hold a new one.
Repeat until the vote goes their way, then claim the people have spoken and never hold another vote. It's not about winning the argument it's about controlling the narrative.
Interestingly enough we only find ourselves in this position (opposition to the EU exceeding support) because the stupid end of the press and most politicians have been using the EU as an excuse and a scapegoat for the last 20 years.
Personally I want to stay in the EU and will vote that way, I just don't think we live in a real democracy and pretending we have a say in this is waste of everyone's time. My primary reason for liking the EU is the longest period of sustained European peace since the human race sussed out writing things down, this is never mentioned but we are currently living in a golden age.
The campaign of fear; has begun. It is the Tory/Republican way of doing things.
We have already been told; France will tear up an agreement the UK and France have agreed, about the migrants in France. If we pull out: Total lies and a red herring.
We have already been told, car drivers, will have to pay an extra £400 on fuel bills; if we pull out. Interesting when you understand, that we already have the most expensive fuel costs in the E.U.
We are being told, it is a matter of national security, to remain within the E.U. That European intelligence services, will no longer share info, with us. More lies.
We are being given the impression, that a no vote, would mean us leaving NATO, again, lies to manipulate the uneducated or ill-informed.
Yes; leaving the E.U. would be economic death to the UK, but there is no need to lie about it; to put fear into the voters minds. Or is it because, the Tories, have spent the last few years, slagging off the E.U?
We have already been told; France will tear up an agreement the UK and France have agreed, about the migrants in France. If we pull out: Total lies and a red herring.
We have already been told, car drivers, will have to pay an extra £400 on fuel bills; if we pull out. Interesting when you understand, that we already have the most expensive fuel costs in the E.U.
We are being told, it is a matter of national security, to remain within the E.U. That European intelligence services, will no longer share info, with us. More lies.
We are being given the impression, that a no vote, would mean us leaving NATO, again, lies to manipulate the uneducated or ill-informed.
Yes; leaving the E.U. would be economic death to the UK, but there is no need to lie about it; to put fear into the voters minds. Or is it because, the Tories, have spent the last few years, slagging off the E.U?
Yup! what we did was keep Europe quiet and export our violence outside of Europe to places where they have things we want....like OIL & Opium. Not so peaceful in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya or Syria was it?
Say we left, erected borders to prevent non-british citizens living and working or even entering here.
I'm pretty sure that quitting the EU would be the "major change" that the SNP would need to trigger another independence vote, which they probably would win.
So Scotland leaves (or stays with the EU when England leaves).
With free movement of people between Scotland and the EU, how do we stop "them" moving across the border to England? A wall and check points?
That situation would be an even bigger mess than we have now.
Still have immigration (by definition all illegal)
Lose any advantages of being in the EU
I'm pretty sure that quitting the EU would be the "major change" that the SNP would need to trigger another independence vote, which they probably would win.
So Scotland leaves (or stays with the EU when England leaves).
With free movement of people between Scotland and the EU, how do we stop "them" moving across the border to England? A wall and check points?
That situation would be an even bigger mess than we have now.
Still have immigration (by definition all illegal)
Lose any advantages of being in the EU
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If you believe that you can stop the free movement of people, think again. It is a basic human right, to be able to travel were you like and all this, we can prevent people coming into the UK, is just a pipe dream and based on myth.
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The Channel Islands, Isle of Man are not in the EU yet historically there have been open borders. Moreover, there are completely open borders with Ireland.
Compare that with going to and from Any other part of the EU. A passport is necessary.
Given that Scotland already has autonomy over its EU membership and relations it could quite easily remain in the EU and the UK.
The Scots will almost certainly use the opportunity to call a second referendum. I have already said I support that for completely different reasons and really hope they succeed.
Addition
Just found this priceless item from the soon to be defunct Independent:
http://indy100.independent.co.uk/ar...the-support-of-pantomime-villains--ZJ5Qea_SAx
You won't believe the villein they have picked up!
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To say "we" is a bit of a stretch, the EU wasn't instrumental in the instigation of any of those conflicts. And the UK's involvement was limited to doing what the US told us.
There are individuals from the UK who played a large role in the instigation, but that was not national policy it was individual acts of deceit.
The EU could be accused of not intervening when they should have during the rise of ISIS, but that accusation can be leveled against every country on the planet.
Just looked at that link it reads like an attendee's list for a briefing on the deathstar.
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You might have misunderstood me.
I don't believe it is possible, desirable or moral to restrict free movement of people.
Clearly there needs to be some form of border controls including deportation etc.
I was trying to point out that closing our borders, which is at least plausible for an island, would be extremely difficult if we had a land border with an EU country, and how that could happen.
In short, the wet dream of UKIP et al of excluding "those brown people and shifty Slavic types" is (as you say) near impossible
I don't believe it is possible, desirable or moral to restrict free movement of people.
Clearly there needs to be some form of border controls including deportation etc.
I was trying to point out that closing our borders, which is at least plausible for an island, would be extremely difficult if we had a land border with an EU country, and how that could happen.
In short, the wet dream of UKIP et al of excluding "those brown people and shifty Slavic types" is (as you say) near impossible
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Cameron obtained nothing in Brussels. A few goodies on the allocations for the migrants and the special regime of exception concerning ever closer integration (federalism) of members of the union. Today the British pounds and the City continues to exist. And the British will have no the veto on the decisions of the euro area. All this noise is a great cinema
Yeah that's the biggest problem with the EU, they've never had their books looked over. Clarity and accountablility are vital, and if we had them maybe not so many people would be desperate to get out.
I'm pretty sure they have, but the auditors have repeatedly refused to sign them off. That is accountancy jargon for saying the accounts supplied are not reliable.
OK, so it more or less amount to the same thing. The EU gov is corrupt, wasteful and dishonest.
But isn't this the government that maintains, at a cost of billion per year, tow seats of government, one in Brussels, the other in Strasbourg because the French say the seat should be in La France?
It's an utterly outrageous situation caused entirely by the individual governments being more concerned with their own nests than with the EU.
For the UK's part, it has contributed to this situation by 40 odd years of negativity, deliberate ignorance and ambivalence.
It is insanity, for example, for the EU central bank not to be in London. That is where the expertise is. But rather than argue common sense, the UK government was more interested in silly point scoring.
The history of the Euro will go down in history as the biggest joke since the start of WW1. I seriously doubt that, in a few hundred years, people will really believe it could have happened.
The attempt, by the French, to blackmail the UK into Schengen by allowing the abomination of the Calais Camps is rubbing egg all over France's face. before we laugh, we should remember the French have a long history of being very poor loosers. Remember Clemenceau?
Whatever happens, Westminster needs to grow up and start taking Europe seriously. It can't continue with its medieval attitudes any more. The EU has a lot of clout. War is no longer an option. Ideally, the UK government needs to establish a ministry of European affairs headed by a cabinet rank minister with the rank of secretary of state.
Found a link: Auditors refuse to sign off EU spending for 20th year in a row
https://euobserver.com/news/126405
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I have to say, wasteful and bureaucratic as the EU is, one of the goals is to stop (yet) another European war.
Now you could argue the Euro was a misstep (hell, there's no argument, it was a gigantic balls up, led by political vanity) that nearly led to war (certainly caused huge frictions) but other than that, binding the continent together in a fashion where disagreements can be worked out in a forum that does not involve trenches and artillery has the be better (and cheaper). To my mind, actual war with the French or Germans feels a remote possibility. Diplomatic and political spats yes, but actual tanks on the lawn? No.
That has to count for something.
Now you could argue the Euro was a misstep (hell, there's no argument, it was a gigantic balls up, led by political vanity) that nearly led to war (certainly caused huge frictions) but other than that, binding the continent together in a fashion where disagreements can be worked out in a forum that does not involve trenches and artillery has the be better (and cheaper). To my mind, actual war with the French or Germans feels a remote possibility. Diplomatic and political spats yes, but actual tanks on the lawn? No.
That has to count for something.
Nope.
NATO has been an excuse for a series of wars in the ME.
The EU is essential to prevent European wars such as WW1 and WW2 which affected most of the world.
More importantly, the realities of the modern economy mean all nations must be part of larger trading blocks.