exploration minigame 6 months later

[marx]

Two remarks about the new content and the like. Before the FSS was revealed, I recall reading a good point from Jackie Silver in a thread about remaking finding signal sources and the like to something akin to SDR: she wrote that she'd rather have new tools to find new stuff with than new tools for the same old.
That unfortunately turned out to be prophetic. Ironically, the poster's original suggestion would have been much better for the FSS, I believe. But well, we got what we had.

Now, on to the new content of Chapter Four. The ironic thing there is that for NSPs, which are where the small amount of new content resides, the new FSS is actually the worse tool for finding them. If you're looking for these, then taking a look at the contacts tab is quicker and more certain. (Much easier to miss a rare line on the FSS barcode than it is to miss some contacts in an undiscovered system.)
In other words, for the new content, the old "tool" is actually better than the new one.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Reasonable suggestion for the HUD info, but...

Thanks

if you#re "sick of the... moaning" then keep your head out of the toilet if you don't wanna sniff the crap.

I'll sniff what I like thanks.

As to the sys map, I still can't understand why some see that as the end point reward... it's where it all starts guys.

It isn't an end point reward. Its something you get to continue with the exploration of the system if you so wish. You need to look at the whole process instead of looking at them as seperate items. Sure the FSS is far from perfect, it reveals too much info some should have been left with the DSS. You need to look over the whole gameplay loop.

The old style method of exploration really didn't have a gameplay loop. There was very little else to discover after you did the initial honk. You new what was in a system, every planet, you new how the system is laid out. You couldn't know if there were any POI anyway so that was useless and the only real reason to fly to planets was credits and tags and the odd photo opportunity. There was no way to find POI in a meaningful way, the only was was using the old mk1 eyeball which was stupidly time consuming and tedious. Basically there was no real gameplay loop.

Now there is, but the issue with gameplay loops as opposed to none is that it will take longer and that I believe is the real issue. The gameplay loop can certainly be made better and more interesting though.

 

[marx]

The reason why the exploration issue keeps coming back is... exploration, and i suspect pvp, is the end game in elite. They're the only things left once everything else is exhausted (and the things you put off, or not take super seriously) while theres other things to do.

And the BGS (from what I understand, mostly PvE, with some PvP thrown in), and PowerPlay, and CQC, and... well, pretty much anything where you often interact with other players. Exploration is unique in that you most often do it solo, while you can still be part of a community of explorers.
Out of all these though, it's only the BGS that receives regular attention. Every couple of years, Frontier remembers that exploration exists and needs a major update, while it's like they pretend PP and CQC don't exist.

Out of all the elements of the game though, I'd say that Elite only has two things putting it above its competitors: the generated galaxy and the BGS. (The basis of which is also generated.) Don't get me wrong, combat is very good too, but it's not distinguishably better than other games. If Elite will ever get some serious competition, then combat is most likely where it'll be challenged and surpassed.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

You need to look at the whole process instead of looking at them as seperate item

Exactly. If the actual mechanic itself was good, on average complaints would sound more ungrateful than desperate.

But the mechanic is crap. Its out of your ship, a pan and zoom clicker, has no depth, and could have been implemented on a mobile phone.

Demanding things frontier never set out to provide ever i think is out of scope. People are only doing that as a scapegoat for the fss they dont actually like. Yes, you will feel better about this crap thing if you got more treats. Better to go for the source not the pain killers imo.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Exactly. If the actual mechanic itself was good, on average complaints would sound more ungrateful than desperate.

If it was bad there would be far more complaints instead of the same complaints from the same few people.

But the mechanic is crap. Its out of your ship, a pan and zoom clicker, has no depth, and could have been implemented on a mobile phone.

Then its just as crap as the system map and galaxy map, both vital for exploration, but I don't see many people complaining about that. Also, see above.

Demanding things frontier never set out to provide ever i think is out of scope. People are only doing that as a scapegoat for the fss they dont actually like. Yes, you will feel better about this crap thing if you got more treats. Better to go for the source not the pain killers imo.

Okay. Not sure that makes any sense what so ever, but hey. Maybe try to rephrase in a way that is understandable.

 

[Old Duck]

My feelings towards the new system have evolved and continue to do so over time and use. I enjoy using the FSS to this day, but my disdain for "Analysis Mode" continues to grow. It's complexity that never needed to be added to the game. I also get no enjoyment out of the "shooting probes" minigame anymore. I fire the same patterns of probes for the same sized planets all the time, and for what? To get a "Mapped By" tag? Even this new tag feels tedious in the system map. If anything, there should be a "first landed on by" tag, since that's what we remember IRL. I would have been fine if we just kept the original first discovery tag.

The reason the FSS minigame still entertains me is that I do actually enjoy playing with telescopes IRL. Perhaps if I enjoyed golf, the probe mapping minigame would be more entertaining as well. That said, I am so annoyed with Analysis mode and the separate "Codex scanner" (why couldn't the existing data scanner handled this?) and other little complexities that I almost wish Frontier had stuck with the original ADS / DSS and added POIs to that DSS. I made Elite in exploration using these old tools, so they couldn't have been that bad... It would be even easier now with the SC assist!

Did I mention how much I hate the new Analysis / Combat mode malarkey? HATE it.

 

[zimms]

Yeah, Analysis/Combat mode seems to be Frontier's way of punishing us for complaining about only two buttons per fire group.

You get spammed with "wrong mode" notifications and God forbid you put normal space and supercruise modules in one group to save fire groups. My ship computer really doesn't like me doing that, I can tell you.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

My feelings towards the new system have evolved and continue to do so over time and use. I enjoy using the FSS to this day, but my disdain for "Analysis Mode" continues to grow. It's complexity that never needed to be added to the game. I also get no enjoyment out of the "shooting probes" minigame anymore. I fire the same patterns of probes for the same sized planets all the time, and for what? To get a "Mapped By" tag? Even this new tag feels tedious in the system map. If anything, there should be a "first landed on by" tag, since that's what we remember IRL. I would have been fine if we just kept the original first discovery tag.

The reason the FSS minigame still entertains me is that I do actually enjoy playing with telescopes IRL. Perhaps if I enjoyed golf, the probe mapping minigame would be more entertaining as well. That said, I am so annoyed with Analysis mode and the separate "Codex scanner" (why couldn't the existing data scanner handled this?) and other little complexities that I almost wish Frontier had stuck with the original ADS / DSS and added POIs to that DSS. I made Elite in exploration using these old tools, so they couldn't have been that bad... It would be even easier now with the SC assist!

Did I mention how much I hate the new Analysis / Combat mode malarkey? HATE it.

Analysis mode just doesn't seem to have any kind of meaningful purpose. Now, if there was a purpose for analysis mode (like having the signatures appear after a honk) i could get behind it. But currently it's pretty pointless.

 

[dxm55]

Analysis mode just doesn't seem to have any kind of meaningful purpose. Now, if there was a purpose for analysis mode (like having the signatures appear after a honk) i could get behind it. But currently it's pretty pointless.

I've only found it useful for one thing. And that is I can't accidentally fire on a friendly.

 

[Evoflash]

Planetary scan is not much fun really is it. It's not really suited to visiting 5,000 systems on a six-month jaunt...it just gets dull.

The radio signal/circle finder thingy isn't too bad (I used the spiny knobs on my X-56 for this). I vary from it passing time, to me ignoring it mostly.

Still. I prefer both systems to the mundane HONK, and the interminable FLY-TO-THE-PLANET-AND-POINT-MY-SHIP-AT-IT silliness.

 

[BDelacroix]

If you were hoping for an anti FSS uprising, It isn't happening.

I like the FSS. Much better than the honk jump honk.

 

[Old Duck]

Analysis mode just doesn't seem to have any kind of meaningful purpose. Now, if there was a purpose for analysis mode (like having the signatures appear after a honk) i could get behind it. But currently it's pretty pointless.

My two complaints are the "Switch Modes To Use XYZ" nonsense and being forced to view the solar system with augmented reality overlaying the glass of my cockpit. Ironically, these two things are the only reason Analysis mode exists in the first place. The augmented reality (blue glowing Tron planets) should have been limited to the probe launcher screen, not the cockpit IMO.

Ironically you can enter the FSS while in combat mode, but when you exit FSS view, the game will have automatically switched you to Analysis mode. Oh, and if you are using FSS in populated system for USS scanning, and then you get interdicted (happens to me), of course it'll keep you in analysis mode even as you deploy hardpoints to defend yourself.

I'll stop my rant now lest I derail this thread, LOL. Though I will add one more complaint to my list of two - the requirement to map yet another button on my already-limited controller!

 

[willisit]

I agree on the mode switching. I fail to see the point of it. I thought I did.. but it's not like firing a cannon at a planet by mistake is going to change anything (not that you can in supercruise anyway). Perhaps more is coming, and it's all ground work.

Oddly, in gameplay terms anyway, I think the old honk system was a tiny, very small, almost dust like, more realistic. I was reading a sci-fi novel series that used jump gates to move from system to system. On entry, the system scan used light to ascertain planet and ship locations, then ship systems would either compare with existing databases (because, you know, the internets would still be a thing, right?) and show orbits and yada yada. Now, if it were a new system, the ship's computer would have to work all that out. More interestingly, as it was based on real naval warfare, ship positions were also per system scan, so you could predict their positions and destinations based entirely on distance and the amount of time the light would take to get to the vessel.
The offshoot is, what you see is often the partial truth, but it's enough to know what's out there. Rocky worlds, Earth likes.. they were fairly obvious at first "honk", then you had to get closer to work out the detail.

I know it's not the same as ED, and the FSS is/was trying to add gameplay. I don't mind it, personally. I've spent many a-thousand light year with it now and it does the job.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The old style method of exploration really didn't have a gameplay loop. There was very little else to discover after you did the initial honk. You new what was in a system, every planet, you new how the system is laid out. You couldn't know if there were any POI anyway so that was useless and the only real reason to fly to planets was credits and tags and the odd photo opportunity. There was no way to find POI in a meaningful way, the only was was using the old mk1 eyeball which was stupidly time consuming and tedious. Basically there was no real gameplay loop.

That's odd, since I have twice described the gameplay loop of the old system, and how the FSS could be integrated into that. I have also done so in previous threads. I have spent years enjoying that gameplay loop. Now that gameplay loop may not have been appealing to you, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one. From my perspective and gameplay preference there is less of a gameplay loop now, since it's hidden behind an activity I do not enjoy to engage in every system.

Here's where the disconnect sets in. While I understand CMDRs who are happy with the system, I am not seeing that understanding, or even an attempt at understanding in your posts. Different CMDRs want different things from exploration.

You don't have to agree with what they want, as long as you acknowledge it does exist.

Now there is, but the issue with gameplay loops as opposed to none is that it will take longer and that I believe is the real issue. The gameplay loop can certainly be made better and more interesting though.

The reveal of the system map may take longer, the "investigation" part however is now lumped in with the reveal of the system map. If I found a system I thought was interesting, I'd likely spend hours there. The only reward being the experience of checking out anomalies up close.

I never played the game for increasing statistics. Tags schmags. The odd photo opportunity was there to have something to remind me of the experience. The photo itself isn't the aim. I have picked 500 of my favourite screenshots which cycle as my background. I find myself staring at some of them for minutes just because it reminds me of that particular trip, or event, or odd system configuration.

So, disagree with other player's preferences all day, call the old ways boring, but don't claim there wasn't any gameplay (loop). It wasn't forcefed to you, so it took some .... oh dear ... imagination and creativity ... yeah, I already regret using the I word. And I will completely agree with you it was missing depth. Imagination and creativity only takes you so far, there comes a point where the game has to throw some bones your way. Loved to have seen it expanded upon rather than replaced, in a way that you would also enjoy.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I agree on the mode switching. I fail to see the point of it. I thought I did.. but it's not like firing a cannon at a planet by mistake is going to change anything (not that you can in supercruise anyway). Perhaps more is coming, and it's all ground work.

Oddly, in gameplay terms anyway, I think the old honk system was a tiny, very small, almost dust like, more realistic. I was reading a sci-fi novel series that used jump gates to move from system to system. On entry, the system scan used light to ascertain planet and ship locations, then ship systems would either compare with existing databases (because, you know, the internets would still be a thing, right?) and show orbits and yada yada. Now, if it were a new system, the ship's computer would have to work all that out. More interestingly, as it was based on real naval warfare, ship positions were also per system scan, so you could predict their positions and destinations based entirely on distance and the amount of time the light would take to get to the vessel.
The offshoot is, what you see is often the partial truth, but it's enough to know what's out there. Rocky worlds, Earth likes.. they were fairly obvious at first "honk", then you had to get closer to work out the detail.

I know it's not the same as ED, and the FSS is/was trying to add gameplay. I don't mind it, personally. I've spent many a-thousand light year with it now and it does the job.

I don't find either of them remotely realistic.

 

[willisit]

I don't find either of them remotely realistic.

No, but I said "I", not "Max Factor". You're allowed to find it as realistic, or more likely, complete ballony as much as you like. Given it's a game, I think that's okay too.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

That's odd, since I have twice described the gameplay loop of the old system, and how the FSS could be integrated into that. I have also done so in previous threads. I have spent years enjoying that gameplay loop. Now that gameplay loop may not have been appealing to you, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one. From my perspective and gameplay preference there is less of a gameplay loop now, since it's hidden behind an activity I do not enjoy to engage in every system.

That activity is part of the gameplay loop so therefore cannot be hidden whether you like it or not.

Here's where the disconnect sets in. While I understand CMDRs who are happy with the system, I am not seeing that understanding, or even an attempt at understanding in your posts. Different CMDRs want different things from exploration.

I understand we all want different things. I also didn't want the FSS, I wanted something completely different. But I have not got what I wanted, I have the FSS. I have managed to adapt my play method to suit it and therefore found a way to enjoy the experience. From my understanding it's people inability to adapt their play method that is causing the issue.

You don't have to agree with what they want, as long as you acknowledge it does exist.

Its got nothing to do with whether I agree with it or not.

The reveal of the system map may take longer, the "investigation" part however is now lumped in with the reveal of the system map. If I found a system I thought was interesting, I'd likely spend hours there. The only reward being the experience of checking out anomalies up close.

Investigation part, is that the bit when you flew towards a planet and even before you can see it a swirly animation comes up and you scanned it. Do you really call that investigation.

I never played the game for increasing statistics. Tags schmags. The odd photo opportunity was there to have something to remind me of the experience. The photo itself isn't the aim. I have picked 500 of my favourite screenshots which cycle as my background. I find myself staring at some of them for minutes just because it reminds me of that particular trip, or event, or odd system configuration.

I don't play for tags, credits or anything like that. The reasons why I play seem similar to yours.

So, disagree with other player's preferences all day, call the old ways boring, but don't claim there wasn't any gameplay (loop). It wasn't forcefed to you, so it took some .... oh dear ... imagination and creativity ... yeah, I already regret using the I word. And I will completely agree with you it was missing depth. Imagination and creativity only takes you so far, there comes a point where the game has to throw some bones your way. Loved to have seen it expanded upon rather than replaced, in a way that you would also enjoy.

The gameplay loop: Jump in, Honk, spool FSD, look at system map, rince and repeat until you stumble across something you find interesting and cancel FSD spool. Not what I would really call an exploration gameplay loop as you would likely do that when you are not exploring apart from the stop to look at something you like.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

No, but I said "I", not "Max Factor". You're allowed to find it as realistic, or more likely, complete ballony as much as you like. Given it's a game, I think that's okay too.

I never said otherwise. I was just giving my point of view, or is that no allowed?

 

[willisit]

I never said otherwise. I was just giving my point of view, or is that no allowed?

Of course, but I wasn't trying to convince you of anything either. I just found it interesting.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Max, would you adapt your gameplay if it meant doing something you didn't like over and over again?

It's not ability to adapt, it's player preference.

I'm cramming 5000 investors on an island. Anno 1800 takes a hell of a lot more adaption than the FSS

edit: added to that, the FSS really isn't a complicated feature, so adapting to it is dead easy.

And my investigation did not consist of scanning. (note how I wrote "investigation". The FSS mini game isn't really investigation in my book either) As I have stated. It consisted of getting up close and personal with the thing I wanted to check out. By flying towards it, around it, landing on it, driving around on it.

Now I could respond with: aim at blue ball, slide until the machine goes ping, zoom in, aim at next blue ball, etc. What a spectacular gameplay loop right there. But I understand the gameplay experience is more than ticking off steps.