Fact: Dumb AI promotes and encourages the behavior of gankers.

[Robert Maynard]

We dont gank because of dumb AI we gank players because there's very little consequences associated with the destruction of another player. To top it off combat logging is an incentive to grief as hard as possible.

It has nothing to do with challenge or because NPC's are poorly programmed.

It's all about FUN. Killing other players is fun, killing players in groups is simply more efficient and fun.

If you put too much consequences PVP will die and there will be no room for it.

.... and there we have it....

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Fact: Dumb griefer promotes and encourages the use of PG and Solo.

I literally do this - frequently - on this board. I yell it from the rooftops.

Careful with breaking rule 2 though. That would be dumb.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

No. Gankers don't gank because it's "meaningful". They do it because they want to.

They want to because they don't wanna do something else. The OP is correct, many of the gankers (and non-ganker PvPers) wish for challenging AI. As it stands now, PvE is neither rewarding nor fun. It's easy mode, there is no challenge and while PvP has no reward at all, it is still more challenging to gank a player before they can combat log than fighting NPCs you know you will beat anyways. Assuming combat logging wouldn't exist, it's still more challenging to hunt down palyers before they escape as NPCs don't really escape before their modules are shot out or if their hull is too low ... if they attempt to escape at all.

Having challenging PvE (and the connected higher reward of lots of G5 materials or exclusive materials for the tech broker) would draw more attention from the gankers. But as it stands now, gankers gank players and while it is still incredibly easy, PvE is even more of an "unchallenge" than ganking.
Also, salt can even be claimed as a new currency of trophies.

If FDev would finally do something about it, everything could stop. Offer content for a wider variety of groups, not just the simple main paths of combat, trade and exploration. What about territorial control? Political simulations? Escorts? So many potential rich gameplay elements that are denied by the lack of meaningful content. Basic functions like player trade or consequences of choice simply do not exist thus making everything plain straight forward, too simple and flat and basically unchallenging .. basically PvE.

So with challenging and rewarding PvE, we would have atleast one attention drainer for not only gankers but for everyone that doesn't enjoy the grindTM of Elite. Even farming explorers and traders that refuse to invest in proper equipment (and their salt) can be described as a grind.

But oh dear, we had improved AI and the cryout was just the same as the DG2 madness we have now. People need to accept that they are not the best, that there are people far beyond their capabilities and that their skillset is way too insufficent for some purposes. But no, players don't like to lose so the difficulty level was lowered back then. The result, unskilled players still have a chance against Elite ranked NPCs ... however, not so well against any kind of mediocre PvPer. And this is why we have the DG2 drama. Players don't like to lose and that is the origin of all our issues.

I doubt we will ever be getting challenging PvE. Even thargoids are too dumb to realize they are being kited. People are killing them in sidewinders. And even a Hydra will be kited for hours. And once you killed it, so what? Do you need credits? Do you need these materials? The answer is no, you don't. There is no reward for hunting Thargs (I wanna side with them any, so that's fine ... but again, I can't do that). Likewise there is no reward for doing PvE, so gankers don't do it. Instead, they gank and the reward is higher than anything else in the game. The OP is completely correct in the statement that having better PvE would certainly draw a ganker's attention. But that's only a really small step into the right direction. The root of the problem lies somewhere else ... and I believe I made that point 5 minutes ago.

 

[Roybe]

We dont gank because of dumb AI. We gank players because there's very little to no consequences associated with the destruction of another player. To top it off combat logging is an incentive to grief as hard as possible.

It has nothing to do with challenge or because NPC's are poorly programmed.

It's all about FUN. Killing other players is fun, killing players in groups is simply more efficient and fun because you get to share the experience. If you get angry because I killed you in open, it's your own fault. You agreed to the consequences by flying in open.

If you put too much consequences PVP will die and there will be no room for it.

How is this a bad thing? PVP is pretty crap in this game, as it is....it would be better for the game if the devs just let it die.

 

[Sole Hunter]

They want to because they don't wanna do something else. The OP is correct, many of the gankers (and non-ganker PvPers) wish for challenging AI. As it stands now, PvE is neither rewarding nor fun. It's easy mode, there is no challenge and while PvP has no reward at all, it is still more challenging to gank a player before they can combat log than fighting NPCs you know you will beat anyways. Assuming combat logging wouldn't exist, it's still more challenging to hunt down palyers before they escape as NPCs don't really escape before their modules are shot out or if their hull is too low ... if they attempt to escape at all.

Having challenging PvE (and the connected higher reward of lots of G5 materials or exclusive materials for the tech broker) would draw more attention from the gankers. But as it stands now, gankers gank players and while it is still incredibly easy, PvE is even more of an "unchallenge" than ganking.
Also, salt can even be claimed as a new currency of trophies.

If FDev would finally do something about it, everything could stop. Offer content for a wider variety of groups, not just the simple main paths of combat, trade and exploration. What about territorial control? Political simulations? Escorts? So many potential rich gameplay elements that are denied by the lack of meaningful content. Basic functions like player trade or consequences of choice simply do not exist thus making everything plain straight forward, too simple and flat and basically unchallenging .. basically PvE.

So with challenging and rewarding PvE, we would have atleast one attention drainer for not only gankers but for everyone that doesn't enjoy the grindTM of Elite. Even farming explorers and traders that refuse to invest in proper equipment (and their salt) can be described as a grind.

But oh dear, we had improved AI and the cryout was just the same as the DG2 madness we have now. People need to accept that they are not the best, that there are people far beyond their capabilities and that their skillset is way too insufficent for some purposes. But no, players don't like to lose so the difficulty level was lowered back then. The result, unskilled players still have a chance against Elite ranked NPCs ... however, not so well against any kind of mediocre PvPer. And this is why we have the DG2 drama. Players don't like to lose and that is the origin of all our issues.

I doubt we will ever be getting challenging PvE. Even thargoids are too dumb to realize they are being kited. People are killing them in sidewinders. And even a Hydra will be kited for hours. And once you killed it, so what? Do you need credits? Do you need these materials? The answer is no, you don't. There is no reward for hunting Thargs (I wanna side with them any, so that's fine ... but again, I can't do that). Likewise there is no reward for doing PvE, so gankers don't do it. Instead, they gank and the reward is higher than anything else in the game. The OP is completely correct in the statement that having better PvE would certainly draw a ganker's attention. But that's only a really small step into the right direction. The root of the problem lies somewhere else ... and I believe I made that point 5 minutes ago.

OP is wrong you didn't have to write a thesis to prove it. I've already explained why we gank/grief.

 

[Sole Hunter]

How is this a bad thing? PVP is pretty crap in this game, as it is....it would be better for the game if the devs just let it die.

Because ultimately playing video games is all about fun. Not everybody is looking for a challenge, if you choke players by adding more barriers to their playstyle, they'll simply quit.

Nobody is forcing you into open, you have the option to avoid PVP, there are games like EVE online that don't give you any other options.

PVP doesn't need to be rewarding, the experience is the reward.

 

[Morbad]

How is this a bad thing? PVP is pretty crap in this game, as it is....it would be better for the game if the devs just let it die.

All that's needed for PvP to exist is the ability for CMDRs to damage each other. No other support or incentive is required.

The devs can't let it die, because it's not on life support and doesn't need to be propped up. They could actively kill it, by completely reversing the direction of their vision and making CMDRs magically immune to fire from other CMDRs, but I'm highly doubtful they have any desire to do this.

Because ultimately playing video games is all about fun. Not everybody is looking for a challenge, if you choke players by adding more barrier to their playstyle, they'll simply quit.

I'm looking for a challenge, because that's a big part of what I find fun in games. Working around in-game consequences via in-game means is a big part of that.

 

[Sooden]

...

If you put too much consequences PVP will die and there will be no room for it.

this /\ if i'm understand right...

Gankers are gonna gank, it's what they like to do, and the more your restrict PvP actions, the more you are affecting all PvP players.. but gankers are still gonna find away to get what they want. At most you may stop some of the gankers playing 'the game' and buying paint-jobs and the newest DLC. they will just pop along when they wanna, and carry on regardless.

So when do-good-ers try to 'fix' ganking, they are harming others game-play... but they don't see that. Improvements to the game should be for the game and not for the 'gankers' vs 'triggered'

I have made if clear a few times that i see ganking and griefing as 2 different things, that have 2 different solution.... one can normally be hard coded without impacting the 'normals' and that's the griefing.

Example, killing crew hosts in open. add heal beam SLF options (they don't have to be over the top) so people can open up fighter positions with a little less risk.

 

[Sole Hunter]

All that's needed for PvP to exist is the ability for CMDRs to damage each other. No other support or incentive is required.

The devs can't let it die, because it's not on life support and doesn't need to be propped up. They could actively kill it, by completely reversing the direction of their vision and making CMDRs magically immune to fire from other CMDRs, but I'm highly doubtful they have any desire to do this.



I'm looking for a challenge, because that's a big part of what I find fun in games. Working around in-game consequences via in-game means is a big part of that.

Good for you, I don't. I just like to have fun, if griefing is part of it then I embrace it.

 

[jasonbarron]

OP is wrong you didn't have to write a thesis to prove it. I've already explained why we gank/grief.

If he didn't want to give the impression that all PvPers were basement dwelling 350 pounders with sticky, fluorescent orange crotches (from all the Mountain Dew, Doritos and Redtube) taking time off from screaming at noobs that they were just pwned only to scream upstairs to their grandma that they need another hotpocket or three (and to make it pronto!) then yeah, he kinda did.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Example, killing crew hosts in open. add heal beam SLF options (they don't have to be over the top) so people can open up fighter positions with a little less risk.

Or just don't let total strangers take control of what amounts to one of your large hardpoints, and the only one that can point at your own ship [unless you run into your own mines].

The last thing this game needs is more healies. Good luck ever getting people to let you into a good wing match.

 

[Sole Hunter]

If he didn't want to give the impression that all PvPers were basement dwelling 350 pounders with sticky, fluorescent orange crotches (from all the Mountain Dew, Doritos and Redtube) taking time off from screaming at noobs that they were just pwned only to scream upstairs to their grandma that they need another hotpocket or three (and to make it pronto!) then yeah, he kinda did.

I'm a griefer and I work in law enforcement irl do you see the irony.

 

[Roybe]

Because ultimately playing video games is all about fun. Not everybody is looking for a challenge, if you choke players by adding more barriers to their playstyle, they'll simply quit.

Nobody is forcing you into open, you have the option to avoid PVP and yet people still cry about losing ships, there are games like EVE online that don't give you any other options.

PVP doesn't need to be rewarding, the experience is the reward.

Keep telling your self that! Someday you will realize how shallow THAT game loop really is!

 

[jasonbarron]

I'm a griefer and I work in law enforcement irl do you see the irony.

Oh wow, so substitute the Doritos for Dunkin Donuts then

 

[Sole Hunter]

Keep telling your self that! Someday you will realize how shallow THAT game loop really is!

I am aware the game is shallow. That's why I play other FUN games.

Oh wow, so substitute the Doritos for Dunkin Donuts then

I'm a tofu guy but I also love a good steak, gotta stay healthy if I want to catch the bad guys.

 

[Old Duck]

It's all about FUN. Killing other players is fun, killing players in groups is simply more efficient and fun because you get to share the experience. If you get angry because I killed you in open, it's your own fault. You agreed to the consequences by flying in open.

If you put too much consequences PVP will die and there will be no room for it.

I would argue that there is too much consequence to PvP - to the person who dies, and that's something that does ruin it for a lot of people. I enjoy "killing" people in Overwatch, because that's the game, and the only loss to the individual who I take out is being sent back to the spawn after a short period of time. When somebody loses a ship in ED, the consequences are usually way, way, WAY more than just being "sent back to spawn", especially for pilots who are not interested in the "killing game" which is just one of many "trails to blaze" in ED.

I personally would not get any enjoyment in ruining another human's day by robbing them of countless hours of exploration data and travel time, and I will never ever do this to anyone.

I've had a variety of ideas of how this problem could be dealt with, but it's not my job to fix Frontier's problems for them, and it is their problem to solve. Until then, the only time I PvP in this game is when I'm screwing around in my Sidewinder or Viper.


BTW, regardless if OP is right about PvP, they are spot-on about the AI; it's gotten really dumb with the 3.3 update (Jar Jar Binks dumb).

 

[Morbad]

I'm a griefer and I work in law enforcement irl do you see the irony.

I'm aggrieved by real life law enforcement nearly every time I encounter them.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Well, LeKano was asking nicely. Recommend to save it for those who spout such things (which I did not see here). I feel ya though of course you know this.

Cute but unrelated to your earlier statement of why you changed ("Mine went fully charged after the C&P fiasco about a year and a half ago.").
It's like you are hinting that there was a deep reason for your change of mind. Why not state more clearly what that is?
- What C&P fiasco given that it was found to be completely ineffective (i.e. no meaningful change)?
- What's the connection between your change of mind and said fiasco? Hope that something change (what)? Something else?

Yeah - sorry LeKeno. Was supposed to be just a bit of fun snark.

What happened was over time I became very dissatisfied with the the way people on the forums react to certain aspects of the game.

I just woke up and it's hard for me to type coherently. But to make a long story short - the casual/PvE crowd complained and complained and begged for harsher C&P. Despite being given loads of advice from PvPers and others on how to survive, they kept begging for it. When the new C&P went live it was supposed to be a big kick in the teeth for the gankers and griefers, right?

Well, the opposite happened. As expected, the gankers and griefers quickly learned the new C&P rules and adapted to them, while the casuals and PvErs exploded because it turned out their sloppy playstyles had them running afoul of the new C&P. And just like with every other aspect of the game, it seems, very simple solutions given to them were no good...

- they shouldn't have to practice trigger discipline, it's the game's fault for overreacting when they shoot cops and/or civilians
- they shouldn't have to plan ahead when running illegal scan missions, the missions should just not be illegal in the first place
- they shouldn't have to spend two minutes looking for an interstellar factor to pay off a bounty, the interstellar factor should just be brought to them
- after all, the new C&P was supposed to stop gankers right? Not impede the gameplay of "lawful" CMDRs

We still see it today. People still complain about 300 credit assault bounties. They make whinge posts about skulking on some landing pad for two hours because they "can't play" until their 1 point of notoriety burns off. They whine about lack of police and ATR response, when they themselves don't outfit and fly so as to enable those authority mechanics to do their jobs. And, of course, none of it is their fault - it's the game and the gankers that need to change to fit their playstyle, not the other way around.

As all of this unfolded, I just wanted to start killing carebears. So I grabbed a KWS, went and sat outside of stations with crimes on, and scanned everyone that came into port. 100 credit trespass bounty? Bang, you're dead. 300 credit assault bounty? Bang, you're dead.

As for DG2. Gonna fly around in a paper thin ship in Lawless space where bad guys are likely to be? Bang, you're dead.

That's it. For me it's not about a greater cause, or achieving some glorious endstate. It's really just being fed up with hearing people whine about things that are totally under their control, and me just wanting to watch their ships explode in response to their stubbornness and lack of personal responsibility.

 

[Sole Hunter]

I would argue that there is too much consequence to PvP - to the person who dies, and that's something that does ruin it for a lot of people. I enjoy "killing" people in Overwatch, because that's the game, and the only loss to the individual who I take out is being sent back to the spawn after a short period of time. When somebody loses a ship in ED, the consequences are usually way, way, WAY more than just being "sent back to spawn", especially for pilots who are not interested in the "killing game" which is just one of many "trails to blaze" in ED.

I personally would not get any enjoyment in ruining another human's day by robbing them of countless hours of exploration data, and I will never ever do this.

I've had a variety of ideas of how this problem could be dealt with, but it's not my job to fix Frontier's problems for them, and it is their problem to solve. Until then, the only time I PvP in this game is when I'm screwing around in my Sidewinder or Viper.


BTW, regardless if OP is right about PvP, they are spot-on about the AI; it's gotten really dumb with the 3.3 update (Jar Jar Binks dumb).

Right except, PVP isn't consensual if you choose to play in open. If all rewards scaled accordingly with the risk associated by playing in open there would be a bigger incentive to take risks and thus getting bigger rewards. Players wouldn't feel like losing a ship is a big deal.

Also how I'm I ruining your day? Fdevs gave you the option to play alone or in a private group. You have the tools to prevent yourself from dying.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

I would argue that there is too much consequence to PvP - to the person who dies, and that's something that does ruin it for a lot of people.

Interesting, I advocated for your exact point via a suggestion in the features forum a few days ago. But hey what would I know, just another dumb griffer! Usually in game I just comms the 3.3 AI.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-retrieval-of-lost-data-via-mission-challenge