Horizons Fairness of horizons vs ED

[galenhammond]

so, i have been an Elite Dangerous player for a while and have enjoyed my time....then i heard about horizons and what it intended and made a prediction. that prediction was that players without the expansion would be banned from atmospheric flight...now that it has been released, my prediction came true... the other part of my prediction is that it would ruin PVP....this has come true as well. now before you start whining and complaining, i will admit im NOT rich and have NO money to upgrade the game...but while the pricing is at a glance i can KINDA understand it. i will get to that later.

broken pvp - player harasses my anaconda and starts to flee soon as he starts to lose...he FSDs out and im able to follow with my ships gear. he flies into a planets atmosphere and im stopped...my ship has the planetary approach suite...but...cant fly... [masked swearing redacted - please avoid this thank you] is this? a bug? no, its devs :|
the dink hounding me was able to escape because he could buy horizons while i cannot. he can hide down there and fly/drive around until i get bored. NOTHING i can do...WHERE IS THE FAIRNESS!!

so i would very much like the or a developers answer on this....WHY can he fly in the atmosphere and i cannot? why is this person able to just hide down there while i am stuck or the other way around...how is this fair to anyone ?

why cant the horizons players get planet based missions and driving and basic players get just atmospheric flight to negate this pvp breaking [masked swearing redacted - please avoid this thank you] you got going on here? and this price? what is this Final Fantasy A Realm Reborn? and if it is essentially an FFXIV:ARR then why the heck connect it to the base game grid...all you are introducing is unfairness and a chance for players to exploit what other players cannot do.

please forgive me for ranging but this is frustrating the hell out of me. i cant even bring myself to log into open play because of this. personally i find it game breaking, and ruins my fun entirely. down vote me all you want, flame me. i could care less. i honestly feel that the expansion vs standard makes the game unfair for the standard players. the developers are trying to FORCE you to upgrade or quit and i honestly find it offensive and 100% a ripoff. i spent $60+ on this game only to have to spend roughly near the same amount AGAIN just for a few added features and according to rumors a crap ton more features later.

if you plan to make a second improved version of Elite Dangerous DONT CONNECT IT TO THE [masked swearing redacted - please avoid this thank you] BASIC SERVER!!!! you ruin the fun for everyone :\

@OP: I can empathize with your predicament...especially as I had to upgrade my GPU and PSU in order to be able to play Horizons. That said, however, your post honestly sounds like you are wanting Horizons content without paying for Horizons. The seasons model for paid expansions is something that has been "on the books" with FDev since the beginning, so it's not a huge surprise there.
.
Also, no one is able to fly in a planetary atmosphere with Horizons...that is a planned feature later in another expansion. The game's ongoing development has to be funded somehow....and I personally feel that a $60 per year "season" of various expansions would be worth it and a much better bargain than a monthly subscription of $10 or $15 (which, by the way, if you want to break the yearly cost down, works out to $5 per month for multiple expansions during the one year).

 

[Arindor]

What if the guy wanted to be chased to the planet's surface and was disappointed the OP didn't have Horizons? Cuts both ways methinks!

 

[lenna]

And of course, to deal with the probable exploit; -after so many times winging up with a 'Horizon's' player, the non Horizon player would be required to purchase Horizons, if he wishes to land again....?

Totally unnecessary, just because they winged up with a Horizons player does not mean they gain any Horizons benefits. It would just mean friends who own differing levels of game capability would still be able to play together in the same instance. It would still mean the non-Horizons player could be stuck in orbit while waiting for his Horizons owning wingman to return from a planet and not being able to follow Horizons owning opponent players into sub-orbital (and orbital cruise) regions.
---
The only benefit is that while roaming around on their own non-Horizons players would not see Horizons owning players (and visa versa) under normal circumstances.

 

[relayer]

Overall though, I think the OP just needs to man up and deal with it. However, if a Horizons player uses such tactics perhaps they should be reported for using an exploit.

How is this an "exploit"? Is high-waking an exploit? Is using 6 SCBs an exploit? There's no modification of code. I really think labeling this an "exploit" is ridiculous.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

No... not falling for a thread like this anymore...

+rep for your user name - Hail To She What Done It All!

 

[relayer]

TL;DR: You do not have to buy a $300+ GPU just to get "reasonable" framerate on planets.

Amen! I don't need to drop $1000 for a Titan to play Horizons, or even a $300 card. This is the "gotta keep up with the ultra-est" worry, not "what do I need to make the game play?" Relax; GPUs are on wicked sales during the holidays - get a nice 750 ti or an ATI (sorry, don't know the equivalent, haven't used ATI cards since the late '90s) and play Horizons happily.

BTW... the 750 ti is nice because its power draw is only 60w, meaning you probably already have an adequate power supply (it does not need its own power connector). It will do 4k. More stats for the card here.

 

[lenna]

How is this an "exploit"? Is high-waking an exploit? Is using 6 SCBs an exploit? There's no modification of code. I really think labeling this an "exploit" is ridiculous.

It is not like a high-wake since a pursuing player could still track where the running player went and follow them... it has more in common with combat logging really. Personally, I don't think it is an exploit but I can see the point of view of those that might think it is. But in any case, my point was if people believe it is an exploit (c/f the OP) then they should report it via the in-game reporting tools rather than complaining about being left out of the loop in the forums.

 

[MoarDan]

It is not like a high-wake since a pursuing player could still track where the running player went and follow them... it has more in common with combat logging really. Personally, I don't think it is an exploit but I can see the point of view of those that might think it is. But in any case, my point was if people believe it is an exploit (c/f the OP) then they should report it via the in-game reporting tools rather than complaining about being left out of the loop in the forums.

im still pretty new and only just then finished downloading horizons, can i ask what combat logging is? ive never heard of it.

 

[lenna]

im still pretty new and only just then finished downloading horizons, can i ask what combat logging is? ive never heard of it.

Combat logging is where a player deliberately and ungracefully exits the game while in combat notionally to avoid losing the fight and the in-game losses associated with losing a fight (notionally only considered an offence really in PvP cases).
---
The point is that if a non-horizons player is following a Horizons owning player that is entering the sub-orbital or orbital cruise region then the Horizons owning player is instantly entering a region of space where the non-Horizons player can not follow. In the case of the incident reported by the OP, the intent of the Horizons owning player is unknown, but if it was to lose the non-Horizons owning player and they knew the non-Horizons player did not have Horizons then it could be considered comparable to combat logging from a certain point of view.

 

[Jon flint]

-
I'm not sure how your opponent knew you couldn't follow them, perhaps they just took a chance and it paid off. That said, this is clearly an exploit and, like combat logging, needs to be addressed by the devs in some way - perhaps allowing hot pursuit into the orbital cruise level would address this.
-

-
You have a right to be frustrated if a cowardly commander took advantage of a Horizons feature, but you must remember that ED was always marketed as a multi-season game (when did TV programming terminology enter the gaming vocabulary?) and that some imbalance is inevitable if players don't want, or can't afford to buy, new content. My advice, accept the moral victory that comes from forcing the attacker to exploit their way out of an ill-judged raid and fly on serene in the knowledge that there is one person who won't make the same mistake again!

I don't see anything cowardly at all, and it's certainly not an exploit on the level of combat logging.

A cmdr bit off more than he could chew and chose to flee. He would have had no idea the OP couldn't follow him down to the surface but just maybe he thought he could out manoeuvre an anaconda in some twisting canyons and mountain ranges etc. It seems a perfectly legitimate tactic, no different than leading a larger attacker into an asteroid field in the hopes of escape.

 

[John Lionard]

I agree with the OP completely we should provide few weeks for people to buy Horizon and after that, kick everybody from the game that don't have Horizon access.
Maybe than winning like this will stop forever.

 

[rote1]

Having read all the (so many) words in this thread, the (non)problem seems to be that only Horizons buyers can use Horizons features? Shocking...

 

[Heavensburn]

what im saying is, dont let 1.5 players land or use srv or do plant missions, but let us fly sub-orbital.

There is a technical aspect as to why v1.5 doesn't have sub-orbital flight, too, that I think some hinted at but didn't explicitly say (apologize if I missed it).

v1.5 is available for lower-end PC or Macs that cannot deal with the newer shader requirements in v2. If sub-orbital flight was available for v1.5, FD would have to build out a whole new branch of planetary modelling/old shader support to allow a niche market of v1.5 users to go sub-orbital. From a future development perspective, two branches would need to be maintained, one with inferior graphics designed to support players who purchased v1.5 and have either chosen to not upgrade, or could not upgrade, and who therefore are no longer contributing additional revenue to E : D (outside of in-game things like paint jobs). For those who play exclusively v2.0, v1.5 users can now get down to about 150KM (from 1,000KM), so FD did about as close as they could to the surface before the artefacting becomes noticeable with the older shader technology.

I'm a v1.5 user, too. I'm on a Mac. I recognize that for technical reasons I won't ever get Horizons (ever is a long time, but lets assume). I also know that while I buy the odd paint job, my big ticket annual purchase to FD is done. The fact they even gave me new content with the v2.0 release a year after i bought E : D was pretty cool. Some companies don't even bother with bug fixes a year after release, let alone new content.

 

[hems303]

+rep
My year-and-a-half old gaming rig is an i5-4690k, not even OC'd. My GTX 750 ti is now on sale for around $120 (look for even cheaper Christmas sales) and performes flawlessly in a packed RES or down on a planet's surface with high framerates. It's cheap enough that later I can just upgrade the video card for more muscle when I need it. But for now, I'm fine.

I agree with hems here (must be a system builder, right?) - I put in two solid months of research, comparing and cross-referencing before I built my machine. It's all about the system components' synergy. My last machine is now 8 years old and still handles many games and intensive virtual-reality worlds. I upgraded it several times over those years; adding a video card here, some RAM there and the highest CPU for that architecture (which was $400 when it came out and $180 when I upgraded to it).

Hi relayer
Thanks for the rep, but I'm really not a system builder (I'm an Artist...painting kind, not drinking kind). I agree with your comments down the line! I have garnered ability from reading articles from regarded experts and reviews. I do build my own systems from components bought from Overclockers UK but don't really regard that as qualifying me as a "systems builder" per se. I keep up to date in a ad-hoc and leisurely manner with the progress of watched/monitored items I'm interested in, and with the passage of time the bugs are ironed out and the price falls...then I pounce, purchase and build into my system/s. That, like your approach IS what really works, giving a stable playing platform for ED and many other games and applications.
Fly safe Commanders!
+rep

 

[cadestirling]

Or put a huge sail on the top of Horizons players ships so players can see they can sail down to planets!!

I could agree with that. Then players would know that it might not be worth it to chase them at all. If they get close to a planet break off because not worth it.

 

[cadestirling]

So far Horizons and ED owners can get the same ships except the Cobra MKIV which isn't better than any other ship in it's price segment.

Lol the cobra mk iv is not that good at all. While boasting somewhat better hardpoint placement and an additional weapon slot. It's maneuverability is horribly cut compared to the mk iii.

I have not tried the viper mk iv yet but will be soon when I can find a station that has one, though what I have seen on one of the wikis suggests that not much changes. Will have to see for myself.


To earlier post, I'm not at home and will have to check my play time when I can get back to my pc

 

[lenna]

Lol the cobra mk iv is not that good at all. While boasting somewhat better hardpoint placement and an additional weapon slot. It's maneuverability is horribly cut compared to the mk iii.

I have not tried the viper mk iv yet but will be soon when I can find a station that has one, though what I have seen on one of the wikis suggests that not much changes. Will have to see for myself.

As with all vessels, the manoeuvrability of the Cobra Mk IV is balanced against other factors. It does not fly like a true dog fighting ship perhaps but it is plenty good enough, it is not a big "I win" button and it is not a POS either.
---
The Cobra Mk IV is a decent and well balanced multi-purpose ship which has sufficient hard-points and internal compartments to be configured as a fairly decent hybrid explorer/miner/trader for a rather modest ship price. The Asp Explorer or bigger are the only other ships I would even consider outfitting in such a way (and for a much bigger price tag).
---
The Viper Mk IV is also a decent ship but more combat oriented, you can kit it out in a similar fashion to the Cobra Mk IV but it is slightly less capable in some respects (more a hybrid explorer/trader/combat). The manoeuvrability is roughly comparable but it has stronger shields. Personally, I consider it a single seat version of the Cobra Mk IV but is possibly a pinch better than the cobra for combat.
---
If you want a good dog fighting ship then the Diamondback Scout is probably one of the better choices IMO.

 

[tomalus]

Pvp, first world problem in Elite dangerous.

 

[Mikkel Toxwenius]

I actually agree with what you say, although you came of very ranty and swearing which don't help you to get the message across. Anyway. It would have been relatively easy for Frontier to just put non horizons in same servers and horizon players in same servers/instances, such that Open players from the two could not meet in game, but still share the whole background "simulation", progressing story, powerplay progression.

 

[drholliday]

While I completely agree with the argument in general the problem is that it doesn't matter if he has H or not. If he can FSD out, all he has to do is logout to main. That's not even combat logging. The time it takes you to go sc or scan the wake is all he ever needs.

The argument has another weakness. While what you describe is true he does not know what you have. A vehicle hangar is a giveaway for a Horizons player. I don't have that on my combat ships. It's unnecessary weight on a killing machine. So if you check my FAS to see if I have a hangar and deduct from that, that I don't have Horizons, you'll end up as a wreckage on that planet.

Running to a planet is not necessarily a good idea.