FDEV, Are you still there?

[Viajero]

That you are not concerned does not invalidate the concerns of others. FDev can placate, or attempt to in a way that community members cannot.

Never said I am not concerned. What I am saying is that I understand how each patron can have a varying degree of trust.
FDev have already placated, many times. But precisely because of that different degree of trust (totally valid), more posts by that company repeating what they have already posted would most likely not be of help for those patrons with the lowest amount of trust. The only way to respond to those patrons imo is by regaining their trust with actual delivery and follow through. Until then, not much anyone (FDev included) can do.

 

[VR jefranklin18]

Never said I am not concerned. What I am saying is that I understand how each patron can have a varying degree of trust.
FDev have already placated, many times. But precisely because of that different degree of trust (totally valid), more posts by that company repeating what they have already posted would most likely not be of help for those patrons with the lowest amount of trust. The only way to respond to those patrons imo is by regaining their trust with actual delivery and follow through. Until then, not much anyone (FDev included) can do.

And the best way they can restore that trust is to communicate more frequently, reintroduce dev updates and sneak peaks. Continued radio silence and late communication of deviations from plan do nothing but erode trust further.

 

[Riverside]

Never said I am not concerned. What I am saying is that I understand how each patron can have a varying degree of trust.
FDev have already placated. And that precisely because of that different degree of trust (totally valid), more posts by that company repeating what they have already posted would most likely not be of help for those patrons with the lowest amount of trust. The only way to respond to those patrons imo is by regaining their trust with actual delivery and follow through. Until then, not much anyone can do.

Clarifications Viajero. FDev posts a thing, or information is otherwise received by the community. This raises requests for clarification. These queries are answered by theorycrafting contributors such as yourself and we end up with stuff like 'they have a 10 year plan' and 'there will be a new season every year'.

FDev can clarify this stuff to manage expectations and nip potential issues in the bud before they become a bigger problem. The same could be said for FDev's stance on cheating, or lots of other examples.

New information would be great, I want to know what's going on and I understand why some things are not revealed. But existing information can be confirmed and clarified by FDev, and in my view, should be.

 

[Viajero]

Clarifications Viajero. FDev posts a thing, or information is otherwise received by the community. This raises requests for clarification. These queries are answered by theorycrafting contributors such as yourself and we end up with stuff like 'they have a 10 year plan' and 'there will be a new season every year'.

I see that you have resorted to using ad hominems Riverside. Not a good sign that your argument is going anywhere useful I am afraid.

 

[Riverside]

I see that you have resorted to using ad hominems Riverside. Not a good sign that your argument is going anywhere useful I am afraid.

To be fair I do think your questions are pretty stupid I thought I was being polite.

 

[Viajero]

To be fair I do think your questions are pretty stupid I thought I was being polite.

Nah, I think this is much simpler than that. Ad hominems like the ones you have just used in your last responses for example, are usually a good tell tale sign for lacking viable arguments. Not sure you can really add much to those, but I am all ears.

 

[Riverside]

Nah, I think this is much simpler than that. Ad hominems like the ones you have just used in your last responses for example, are usually a good tell tale sign for lacking viable arguments. Not sure you can really add much to those, but I am all ears.

Just re-read what I already wrote. You've already agreed with me. I am not writing to convince you I make a good point, I write to convince FDev I make a good point.

 

[Viajero]

Just re-read what I already wrote. You've already agreed with me. I am not writing to convince you I make a good point, I write to convince FDev I make a good point.

Oh I am quite sure FDev will post again on many of these issues in the future, I do not think you need to convince anyone about the goodness of that point. Moot as it is.

You seem to be convinced, though, that just by FDev posting more on those topics, patrons who have lost trust in FDev will all of a sudden believe more. If previous (and in some cases, very recent) posts on the matter have not helped already I am afraid only actual delivery will increase the trust in those cases.

I am not trying to convince you I make a good point, you seem too focused on your own personal view for that, but some other readers on the fence might actually see the point.

 

[M00ka]

I still can't understand the whole 'FD must keep us fully informed' rhetoric some here are demanding. Why should they, most other game publishers don't, and if FD did, what would it achieve? Do you really think that if FD released a statement tomorrow advising that the 2020 upgrade will be atmospheric planets WITH Elite Feet this community will just sit back and say 'Thank You'. Hell no, every one of the professional gaming experts here will have an apocalyptic meltdown. Some will call FD liars, some will demand that that project is brought forward cos you know, these things can be done overnight with two work experience kids, some will rant that they don't want atmospheric planets or Elite Feet, some will demand that all work stop until their favourite bug in the game is fixed. This community just can't be trusted to be told anything at times, because there is this core group that will undermine anything FD does or say they are doing.

 

[Riverside]

Oh I am quite sure FDev will post again on many of these issues in the future, I do not think you need to convince anyone about the goodness of that point. Moot as it is.

You seem to be convinced, though, that just by FDev posting more on those topics, patrons who have lost trust in FDev will all of a sudden believe more. If previous (and in some cases, very recent) posts on the matter have not helped already I am afraid only actual delivery will increase the trust in those cases.

I am not trying to convince you I make a good point, you seem too focused on your own personal view for that, but some other readers on the fence might actually see the point.

If that is what you think I wrote I can only assume you didn't read them Viajero. You are taking the position that trust can only be regained through action (rather than clarification), I take the position that the frustration about the lack of action can be placated by clarification.

By 'action' I mean changes to the game. Bug updates, free addons, premium content, whatever. By 'clarification' I mean keeping the community informed as to what's going on and clarifying ambiguity.

I used Brett's communication about the forum upgrade, and Paul Crowther's communication about the Issue Tracker as examples of this done well in another thread earlier today. It can be done. If they delivered stuff then I'd say the level of communication wouldn't be an issue, actions speak louder than words as you imply. But in the absence of actions, words do help.

 

[Decksmeck]

I bought Ed recently. I have no expectation of free content. It is great to have free content added and I wouldn't complain about it. I am happy to pay for any new content. I might buy some of the Cosmetic stuff, but I enjoy the game very much so I'd be happy to pay you know another fifty bucks for an a big update. I don't really care. They can run another Kickstarter if they want. I'll give him some money.

 

[Viajero]

You are taking the position that trust can only be regained through action (rather than clarification), I take the position that the frustration about the lack of action can be placated by clarification.

That is precisely the thing we seem to disagree on. FDev has already posted and clarified (in some cases very recently) to placate many of the concerns you refer to. All those posts and clarifications do not seem to be trusted by some patrons, and therefore I do not think more posts and clarifications, as you suggest, can help in placating much in those cases. Only actual delivery, or as close as you can get to it.

 

[Riverside]

That is precisely the thing we seem to disagree on. FDev has already posted and clarified (in some cases very recently) to placate many of the concerns you refer to. All those posts and clarifications do not seem to be trusted by some patrons, and therefore I do not think more posts and clarifications, as you suggest, can help in placating much in those cases. Only actual delivery, or as close as you can get to it.

The field has been left fallow for a very long time, the questions unanswered continue to build. If trust is lost (and to some degree it is with me) it will take more than the current level of activity to regain that trust. But in my case at least, the trust that has been lost was more because of the lack of clarification of issues I consider important than the lack of product. The lack of product is still a problem however, but only because I have a 2015 LEP.


Perhaps it is worth bearing in mind that what you see as proactive communication (the Important Community Updates for example) have all only come about following 'feedback' from the community. None of it was proactively volunteered.

The October 2017 post from Zac immediately followed a PM to Zac (requesting clarification) from me (other may have too).

The August 2018 Important Community Update from Zac immediately followed my visit & conversation (not with Zac) in Cologne (the Frontier Gamescom party), others may have raised the issue too.

The March 2019 Important Community Update (01/03) from Will followed soon after the first Frontier Xtra livestream where quite a lot of people (including me) wanted to know what was going on.

I am pretty fed up with having to chase this up time & time again.

 

[DDastardly00]

I still can't understand the whole 'FD must keep us fully informed' rhetoric some here are demanding. Why should they, most other game publishers don't, and if FD did, what would it achieve? Do you really think that if FD released a statement tomorrow advising that the 2020 upgrade will be atmospheric planets WITH Elite Feet this community will just sit back and say 'Thank You'. Hell no, every one of the professional gaming experts here will have an apocalyptic meltdown. Some will call FD liars, some will demand that that project is brought forward cos you know, these things can be done overnight with two work experience kids, some will rant that they don't want atmospheric planets or Elite Feet, some will demand that all work stop until their favourite bug in the game is fixed. This community just can't be trusted to be told anything at times, because there is this core group that will undermine anything FD does or say they are doing.

Truer words have never been spoken, well said

Follow up to my last post in this thread or the other one, I'm losing track with all of these (there are so many). Anyway, make that psychotic ex-girlfriend. This community....I mean I love their passion for this game but damn... The whole we must know everything RIGHT NOW! bit gets old. Someone needs to tell them, just play the game, relax a little. Instead it's.... what are they working on right now, when will it be done, is feature X going to be included. Why won't they tell us? Are they hiding something? What are they wearing right now, I have to know. Bathroom breaks, I need to know when they take them, all of them. It's been 5 whole minutes since I texted them, why haven't they responded, are they seeing someone else? What's her name, where does she live? Sorry for burning your entire vinyl collection and your sofa, I was in a fit of rage thinking you were with someone else. It's been ten minutes now, why haven't you texted me back? I love you?

This^ is what they sound like to me, the psychotic ex girlfriend syndrome, don't be that person. When they have something to announce, they will announce it.

 

[M00ka]

Is it so hard to understand the Patrons's requests? Patrons are simply asking for snippets, not a full delivery in fsd charging time.
I think even if people complain, it is obvious that good things need time to be done. So 2020 it is. But give us snippets like the devs did in the early days for Christ's sake. Otherwise this thread happens.

And if they did give snippets then YOU would demand more information, screen shots, the right to demand changes.

 

[Riverside]

And if they did give snippets then YOU would demand more information, screen shots, the right to demand changes.

Demand is a strong word but that aside why is asking (I described it as pestering earlier) a problem? Especially after this long.

 

[M00ka]

no, I won't. And even if I did, FD could rightfully ignore my "exagerated" requests because they would have regained at least my trust.

Also please remember I am supporting them buying overpriced low effort cosmetics. Legitimates demands a bit more.

But you started this thread on the premise of wanting MORE information, so it is very safe to conjecture that you will naturally want more information above and beyond what FD releases.

You are buying cosmetics (which unless I am mistaken is an entirely voluntary thing) matter very little, it does not give you any rights of demand, no matter how legitimate you feel.

 

[M00ka]

Demand is a strong word but that aside why is asking (I described it as pestering earlier) a problem? Especially after this long.

As I have already said, what would you do with any information that FD releases? Would it make you play the game differently until waiting until 2020? Would you eject the pacifier (spit the dummy) if what they released didn't meet with your personal paradigm of how the game should progress? Would you inundate the forums, bitterly complaining that FD are doing things wrong and you know better?

 

[Riverside]

As I have already said, what would you do with any information that FD releases? Would it make you play the game differently until waiting until 2020? Would you eject the pacifier (spit the dummy) if what they released didn't meet with your personal paradigm of how the game should progress? Would you inundate the forums, bitterly complaining that FD are doing things wrong and you know better?

It would depend on the issue, and the feedback would then be a two-way street between players & FDev. I laid out my issues recently in another thread:

Thanks for getting back to us Will, I appreciate that you did so earlier in the day and I hope this kind of two-way feedback becomes a regular thing, even if nothing can be announced it is better than giving the impression that what customers consider significant issues are being ignored or not seen. You never know, perhaps there will be some questions that can be answered

LEP Content

The Next Era content will be paid for content and LEP owners will receive it as part of their pass. We don't have anything to announce regarding any additional LEP content at the moment.





Thank you for all the feedback you've provided so far. Keep it coming, we'll be reading!

My primary concern is that the gameplay I originally bought will be damaged. I'm happy with how much is added, I may find things useful (eg engineers) or it may be for others and not impact me (eg squadrons). Removing the old discovery exploration modules removes gameplay, and no purity of design intent (of the new discovery process) can over-rule the simple fact that you (as a company) are adding features to an existing, mature game, not selling a new one. The old gameplay needs to be put back into the game, it should never have been removed. This is an easily solved problem that has no downside for any customer.

My main motivation for posting anything at all on this forum has been with this in mind - I try to make sure the game I play can continue to be played and that proposed changes do not negatively impact my ability to continue to play that game.









My secondary concern is with the lack of 'premium content' (or information about it) that I paid (£120) in advance for in September 2015. While I appreciate having a realistic timescale for the next premium package the protracted delay means I can not see how I can expect to get value for money out of this.

I am happy enough for you (as a company) to be as secretive as you like about stuff you are working on, but not when you have the customers money already in your pocket.



In September 2015 I had a choice between pre-ordering the Horizons season pass or buying a Lifetime Expansion Pass. Based on the previous release schedule and communication level I was happy to believe more premium content would follow with a similar timescale and level of communication, or that (for example) following the year of consolidation (the Beyond Series of Updates) the release of premium packages would quickly ramp up.



So personally (I do not claim to speak for anyone but myself) I would be happy for you (as a company) to be as secretive as you like provided you revert my account back to a simple Horizons beta account and reimburse the LEP value not yet redeemed. Then you (as a company) can take all the time you like and I will just buy any new premium content when it is eventually released.









My third (and very distant compared to the other two) concern is with cheating. I was pleased to see the board flipping loophole fixed, I'd like to see more work done to eradicate cynical instance swapping (at Dav's Hope for example) so the progression rate in the game can be more reasonably balanced. I'd also like to see cynical ungraceful exits (Combat Logging) discouraged, I have written a great deal on the subject of CLogging Griefers.



Thank you for your time, I look forward to reading any productive replies.

The first two are easily solved, the third is rather more complicated but clarification of intent and actions (which would inevitably be anonymised stats) would go a long way to placate.

What it isn't going to be, for anyone, is worse. There are a lot of issues that have been outstanding for a long time, those above are only mine (and my top three) and I am providing feedback in as clear and unambiguous way as I can, clarifying when required. When something is done well I try to make sure I say so, when there are problems I try to describe those clearly too.

 

[Guest193293]

Do you seriously need a statement from them 'confirming' they are working on the game ? did anybody read 01/03 community update ?
This is ridiculous.