FDev: Credit rebalancing incoming, "more reward for higher risk" activities

[Jmanis]

I'm not telling you your opinion. I'm telling you how your opinion is categorized. Your opinion is that you enjoy it. Why you enjoy it is something we can all observe. You haven't mentioned anything about what the game has offered for gameplay out in the black that would signify that that enjoyment stems from what the game has provided. But there are lots of examples of what it does that should send you screaming. So you enjoy it despite all of that. Or are you saying you also like all of the negative stuff too.. because there's a term for that i can apply as well, which is a masochist ...which is fine and acceptable. but not evidence of good gameplay unless this has been marketed very oddly.

Do they need to justify what the gameplay offers their enjoyment?

I love Salmiak, being half-dutch in Australia. My pop used to sneak it in to my lunchbox every day when I was a kid. My whole family loves it too. But my wife hates it. So do my co-workers, best friends, virtually everyone. The only ones who do are either Dutch, Balkan or Scandinavian.

There's also a very big difference between good salmiak and bad salmiak. I've had some salmiak which I've literally thrown out because it's awful, and others which are badged as salmiak, but are more like just plain old licorice and a bit disappointing.

But I could never, ever point to a feature of Salmiak which I like, and convince someone else that it's a "good thing". These ones, for example, are little toffee-like balls filled with salmiak powder. I love to crunch them and get that powder exploding in my mouth. I've watched people literally vomit trying that themselves because of that.

That doesn't mean I enjoy salmiak "in spite of how it tastes"... I genuinely like the taste, it's a good taste. But I'd never expect any one of the people I know who hates it to understand that, nor does that make my love of salmiak somehow unjustified.

Likewise in Elite, if Achtung-Goomba offered up a suggestion of why he enjoys something, but you counteract that you hate it, that doesn't make their enjoyment any less legitimate or "in spite of" the game.

 

[Darth Ender]

Are we wanting a game that satisfies everybody or a certain audience?

S

are we satisfying everybody or even most people with the current game or crippling the game in the attempt?
It seems pretty obvious how easily the game could be made better if it was divided or limited in scope.
There is not so much evidence that it can deliver as good of a game doing what it's doing.

 

[Darth Ender]

Likewise in Elite, if Achtung-Goomba offered up a suggestion of why he enjoys something, but you counteract that you hate it, that doesn't make their enjoyment any less legitimate or "in spite of" the game.

It absolutely does require justification if it's being offered as evidence. otherwise you might as well respond with "I like turtles" as to why you like the game. It's just as constructive and useful. If you can't articulate why something is good, then it's not helpful in a discussion.

 

[sirus66]

are we satisfying everybody or even most people with the current game or crippling the game in the attempt?
It seems pretty obvious how easily the game could be made better if it was divided or limited in scope.
There is not so much evidence that it can deliver as good of a game doing what it's doing.

Let's switch it up a bit. I'm curious of something. What are the top things that you love most about Elite?

 

[Borko]

Let's switch it up a bit. I'm curious of something. What are the top things that you love most about Elite?

I like turtles.

 

[Sysmon]

Do they need to justify what the gameplay offers their enjoyment?

I love Salmiak, being half-dutch in Australia. My pop used to sneak it in to my lunchbox every day when I was a kid. My whole family loves it too. But my wife hates it. So do my co-workers, best friends, virtually everyone. The only ones who do are either Dutch, Balkan or Scandinavian.

There's also a very big difference between good salmiak and bad salmiak. I've had some salmiak which I've literally thrown out because it's awful, and others which are badged as salmiak, but are more like just plain old licorice and a bit disappointing.

But I could never, ever point to a feature of Salmiak which I like, and convince someone else that it's a "good thing". These ones, for example, are little toffee-like balls filled with salmiak powder. I love to crunch them and get that powder exploding in my mouth. I've watched people literally vomit trying that themselves because of that.

That doesn't mean I enjoy salmiak "in spite of how it tastes"... I genuinely like the taste, it's a good taste. But I'd never expect any one of the people I know who hates it to understand that, nor does that make my love of salmiak somehow unjustified.

Best use of ammonium-chloride ever! Being Danish, I'm a big fan of it too.

ED sits awkwardly between genres as it is. I agree with Darth Ender that there is not a whole lot of story-driven content, but I don't agree that the content must be player-driven. Player-driven content is a great source of emergent game play that can happen in parallel in multiple locations and for numerous reasons. The downside is that players tend not to have a game's best interest at heart (not that anybody would know what that is, anyway), and refereeing it can be difficult and is bound to step on the toes of especially the poor neurotic content-creators out there (poor and neurotic like anyone trying to make a living out of something they aren't really in control of).

FD seems to want to keep everything in tight control and for some reason can only do one thing at a time. So despite the fact that the galaxy is huge and the human bubble is a bustling home of trillions in tens of thousands of systems, there is very limited stuff going on. Even bubble-spanning events should see more than one news-worthy instance happening at a time. For that, the story team should probably be big and make up several teams including teams for the Federation, Alliance, Empire, cross-superpower news, AX news, Raxxla and other mysteries, Faction news, resouce news, exploration news, ... These could all pump stories to an editorial team that then basically put different in-game newsletters together with events attached. The faction/system stories could be randomly and procedurally generated with some event combinations and severities triggering editorial flags for human intervention.

But it is complicated and exhausting just writing that idea out...

S

 

[Jmanis]

It absolutely does require justification if it's being offered as evidence. otherwise you might as well respond with "I like turtles" as to why you like the game. It's just as constructive and useful. If you can't articulate why something is good, then it's not helpful in a discussion.

How can you provide evidence of an opinion? As I said, it's impossible, unless you want to start having people present detailed body-chemistry analysis of the changes that happen when they enjoy something? That's about the only thing that might serve as evidence.

PS: If someone said "I like turtles" as a basis for saying Elite was OK... that's just a nonsense statement. But saying "I like doing a single activity over and over" is entirely relevant and fair.

 

[Sysmon]

are we satisfying everybody or even most people with the current game or crippling the game in the attempt?
It seems pretty obvious how easily the game could be made better if it was divided or limited in scope.
There is not so much evidence that it can deliver as good of a game doing what it's doing.

The goal of the game was to bring a living galaxy for us to play with. So the scope has to be accepted as broad, though.

S

 

[Kelster87]

I seem to be making more money on the return leg of an explore, it's a big enough difference that it can't simply be explained by finding 'better' systems on this leg..

 

[Darth Ender]

Let's switch it up a bit. I'm curious of something. What are the top things that you love most about Elite?

I like the flight model and full hotas support. The VR. I like the fact that no matter how long everyone plays the game, there is still the potential to go some place nobody has ever been. I liked part of the mysteries the game scattered early on ...though not in how they had those mysteries be solved. I like the privateer style game where you can take up some combat, do some trading , do some exploring and not be shuffled along a set progression. I like the scale of stations and systems and galaxy. I like(d) galnet when users could contribute stories to supplement the stories put out for the narrative. I like(d) powerplay when there was still hope that it would be completed even though it was tremendously repetitive.

For now, I like the idea of watching the bubble burn from a huge distance away and seeing what comes after while i cross my fingers that something surprising actually was put in the game in the next crap system i jump into.

 

[CoyoteXStarrk]

I seem to be making more money on the return leg of an explore, it's a big enough difference that it can't simply be explained by finding 'better' systems on this leg..

So they might have ninja buffed exploration?

 

[Rat Catcher]

I just like flying imaginary spaceships...
I also like exploration immensely - even though at least one of our forum posters considers there is nothing to be interested in once you have seen 10 systems... As I'm rapidly approaching my first million light years on the clock, I must find something fascinating that is not apparent to others, surely?

True, the game doesn't lead one by the nose, some imagination and role-play does bring the game 'alive' for me and each activity I do is by choice, because the game doesn't force me to do anything at all. Even the people I choose to play with enhance my game, and to be blunt - the ones I choose not to engage with I don't miss and I'm certain they don't miss me either - win/win for everyone.

The game is exactly what I thought it would be when I started paying a little over 3 years ago, but I did read up carefully before buying, despite being an original 84'er and loving the original game.

 

[sirus66]

I like the flight model and full hotas support. The VR. I like the fact that no matter how long everyone plays the game, there is still the potential to go some place nobody has ever been. I liked part of the mysteries the game scattered early on ...though not in how they had those mysteries be solved. I like the privateer style game where you can take up some combat, do some trading , do some exploring and not be shuffled along a set progression. I like the scale of stations and systems and galaxy. I like(d) galnet when users could contribute stories to supplement the stories put out for the narrative. I like(d) powerplay when there was still hope that it would be completed even though it was tremendously repetitive.

For now, I like the idea of watching the bubble burn from a huge distance away and seeing what comes after while i cross my fingers that something surprising actually was put in the game in the next crap system i jump into.

I suspected as much.

For me it's also the flight model and the way the ships feel as in having different "personalities", the little details about them, the scale of the galaxy, the fact that it's pseudo-realistic with basic orbital mechanics and 1:1 scale. I like combat and pvp because combined with the flight model and different engineering options available it can make for interesting fights and counters and it has a high skill-ceiling, the immersive UI and some other small details that elude me right now(at least I can't put them into words).

What I hate? Pretty much everything else

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

I'm not telling you your opinion. I'm telling you how your opinion is categorized. Your opinion is that you enjoy it. Why you enjoy it is something we can all observe. You haven't mentioned anything about what the game has offered for gameplay out in the black that would signify that that enjoyment stems from what the game has provided. But there are lots of examples of what it does that should send you screaming. So you enjoy it despite all of that. Or are you saying you also like all of the negative stuff too.. because there's a term for that i can apply as well, which is a masochist ...which is fine and acceptable. but not evidence of good gameplay unless this has been marketed very oddly.

So now I’m a masochist? You know, when you’re done psychoanalysing me you can put down the shovel any time...

Look, I’ll not pretend the game is perfect, it’s rather a flawed diamond to me. But in a world of subjective opinions that can vary wildly from one person to the next, is it really so hard to believe that someone actually enjoys this game without struggling against it?

I’m just a simple spaceman who enjoys flying virtual spaceships around a pretty damn good 1:1 scale representation of our Milky Way. I enjoy long supercruise travels to secondary stars and planetary bodies because they reinforce that sense of scale. I’ve just now spent 8 minutes or so doing 200kly to an otherwise insignificant icy body because it looked pretty on the system map, with a lovely teal colour crisscrossed with deep blue ice canyons. I enjoyed said 200kly supercruise to the secondary star because as the primary star shrank to become part of the background the second one grew larger, until I could visually resolve the bodies orbiting it, and I got that wow moment, because space is really really big. When I got to said icy body I spend another 15 minutes or so zooming my DBX through the visually appealing contrast canyons. Then I’m jumping to the next system on my route to see what interesting stories that one might tell.

I mean, not everyone will like the same things, but is it really such a problem that I enjoy playing in their cosmic sandbox because of what it is, and not despite it? It doesn’t mean you have to like it as well.

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

It absolutely does require justification if it's being offered as evidence. otherwise you might as well respond with "I like turtles" as to why you like the game. It's just as constructive and useful. If you can't articulate why something is good, then it's not helpful in a discussion.

Why would I want to discuss with somebody who tells me my own opinions and then tells me that I’m masochistic for having them?

 

[Jmanis]

So now I’m a masochist? You know, when you’re done psychoanalysing me you can put down the shovel any time...

Look, I’ll not pretend the game is perfect, it’s rather a flawed diamond to me. But in a world of subjective opinions that can vary wildly from one person to the next, is it really so hard to believe that someone actually enjoys this game without struggling against it?

I’m just a simple spaceman who enjoys flying virtual spaceships around a pretty damn good 1:1 scale representation of our Milky Way. I enjoy long supercruise travels to secondary stars and planetary bodies because they reinforce that sense of scale. I’ve just now spent 8 minutes or so doing 200kly to an otherwise insignificant icy body because it looked pretty on the system map, with a lovely teal colour crisscrossed with deep blue ice canyons. I enjoyed said 200kly supercruise to the secondary star because as the primary star shrank to become part of the background the second one grew larger, until I could visually resolve the bodies orbiting it, and I got that wow moment, because space is really really big. When I got to said icy body I spend another 15 minutes or so zooming my DBX through the visually appealing contrast canyons. Then I’m jumping to the next system on my route to see what interesting stories that one might tell.

I mean, not everyone will like the same things, but is it really such a problem that I enjoy playing in their cosmic sandbox because of what it is, and not despite it? It doesn’t mean you have to like it as well.

Shhh.. the opinions of masochists aren't welcome!

 

[Darth Ender]

Why would I want to discuss with somebody who tells me my own opinions and then tells me that I’m masochistic for having them?

Nobody told you your own opinions. You didn't say what you liked and now that you have it's clear you like boring stuff. Nobody is saying you dont like boring stuff, or that you shouldn't like what you like. I'm saying that what you like is considered in general to be boring, lazy and substandard game mechanics given the selling point of the game as a dangerous galaxy etc etc. So the fact that you like it is in spite of the efforts of Fdev to make a poor experience. The game isn't taglined with "spend hours in serene bliss doing practically nothing and relax". So yea, you can teeter on the idea that it's subjective if relaxing nothingness is good or bad but in context of this game, it seems to be counter to what it should be. Thus ...in spite of. Not because of.

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

Nobody told you your own opinions. You didn't say what you liked and now that you have it's clear you like boring stuff. Nobody is saying you dont like boring stuff, or that you shouldn't like what you like. I'm saying that what you like is considered in general to be boring, lazy and substandard game mechanics given the selling point of the game as a dangerous galaxy etc etc. So the fact that you like it is in spite of the efforts of Fdev to make a poor experience. The game isn't taglined with "spend hours in serene bliss doing practically nothing and relax". So yea, you can teeter on the idea that it's subjective if relaxing nothingness is good or bad but in context of this game, it seems to be counter to what it should be. Thus ...in spite of. Not because of.

You know what is boring? Having my opinions about what I do and do not enjoy subjected to some sort of pseudo-intellectual analysis. I’d rather be flying virtual spaceships to be honest.

 

[Rubbernuke]

How does that actually progress anything? None of these things actually have any impact on the game other than changing some text in the codex. They're completely boring and irrelevant.

You use your ships and skills to progress in a Power, and grow the power and BGS through your work- i.e. they give you an objective in game to work towards.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Nobody told you your own opinions. You didn't say what you liked and now that you have it's clear you like boring stuff. Nobody is saying you dont like boring stuff, or that you shouldn't like what you like. I'm saying that what you like is considered in general to be boring, lazy and substandard game mechanics given the selling point of the game as a dangerous galaxy etc etc. So the fact that you like it is in spite of the efforts of Fdev to make a poor experience. The game isn't taglined with "spend hours in serene bliss doing practically nothing and relax". So yea, you can teeter on the idea that it's subjective if relaxing nothingness is good or bad but in context of this game, it seems to be counter to what it should be. Thus ...in spite of. Not because of.

So you stopped playing this boring game then?

Whatever is is that you perceive to be so boring keeps many players happy and occupied, possibly because those contented players knew the nature of the game they bought.
I think your opinions are incredibly boring too, but don't shout it out to all in general... Odd, isn't it?