FDev, just watch this video.

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

ObsidianAnt, I know we disgree on this

Said that, your post provide a logical flaw imho - you say it is fine completing mats setup for module engineering over time...yet you go on to complaing how *grinding* for it is time consuming. Now, which it is then? Of course focused concentration on tasks will be time consuming no amount of masking will help tasks repeated over and over again..they will feel like a grind, even for 10 mins.

I think it is a bit in a core of whole ED gameplay here.

 

[CMDR M Kozak]

ObsidianAnt, I know we disgree on this

Said that, your post provide a logical flaw imho - you say it is fine completing mats setup for module engineering over time...yet you go on to complaing how *grinding* for it is time consuming. Now, which it is then? Of course focused concentration on tasks will be time consuming no amount of masking will help tasks repeated over and over again..they will feel like a grind, even for 10 mins.

I think it is a bit in a core of whole ED gameplay here.

quoted for truth

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Indeed. It is just sad that FD spends dev time adding "gameplay" that most do not bother to use because it is (let's be honest) time consuming, repetitive gameplay requiring no skill.
Powerplay, Engineers, Gathering materials => time consuming, repetitive, little variation, no need of skill. Fit the "grind" definition for me.

The fact that FD is still adding "content" using that pattern worries me for the game. I really though that Powerplay was a fluke/brainfart. But it seems it is not the case.

Please stop claiming what 'most' wants, thank you.

 

[Heater]

When you think about it, 3 of the top Video makers for Elite, all have more or less the same thoughts about the game, along with a lot of the users that post on the forums....
And I know FD is working hard but you would think that after each release that has more or less failed to achieve what it was intended too it makes your wander what direction the game will go.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

So a boost isn't an upgrade? And no one said it didn't take time. But that makes it no less of an upgrade shop. It is a full upgrade shop that has you source your own parts. Like an overclocker who has you provide the system componenets and gives you something better than the whole you otherwise had.

A boost is an upgrade, unless for some reason an upgrade is only something that you consider to occur by a static value. Which seems an odd definition constraint.

As I said...with hammer...you got idea. If you will keep viewing like that...it will stay that way for you.

 

[dreampage]

What I think is needed for the Engineers expansion to be more fun for more people:

- Easier discoverability and easier unlocking of the engineers.

- Alternate ways to unlock and build reputation with those engineers (some of them are forcing us to do things we don't normally do, mining or fighting for example).

- General information about materials and planets: which body contains which material, even give us some percentage or chance for us to see how likely a planet will drop a given material.

- Ultimately we could have a third party database where we could track where to look for different materials.

- Commodities: alternate ways to obtain them, not just missions.

- Material / Data limit removed or increased significantly.

- Engineer upgrades: More positive and less negative effects. Nothing is more frustrating than hunting for materials for hours / days only to get something you have to discard because it's worse than before. More predictability or even alternate ways to re-roll (in exchange for money or reputation for example).

Right now the main issue is that everything within the Engineers is random. You don't know if a planet will drop a material you need, you don't know if you'll ever find a mission that will reward you with the commodity you need, and you don't know how long the grind will take and if the result will be worth it at all. So it's not the grind itself what the problem is. The problem is that everything is random and we can't plan our activity. In every RPG or RPG style game the main motivator is that if you need a high-end equipment, you have to know what's needed to be done to get it. And it's cruical to know that if you do this or that, you'll get closer to your goal. In Elite, right now, you never know if you do what needs to be done, if you play whole day you'll be closer to the planned upgrade or not. This predictability is what's missing from the game.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Please stop claiming what 'most' wants, thank you.

Sorry. I forgot that some people like performing repetitive actions with no variation for large amount of time for an uncertain outcome.

I should have wrote : "that most people that do not like performing repetitive actions with no variation for large amount of time will not bother to use"

My apologies. Glad you like the engineer gameplay as is, at least someone is happy.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

ObsidianAnt, I know we disgree on this

Said that, your post provide a logical flaw imho - you say it is fine completing mats setup for module engineering over time...yet you go on to complaing how *grinding* for it is time consuming. Now, which it is then? Of course focused concentration on tasks will be time consuming no amount of masking will help tasks repeated over and over again..they will feel like a grind, even for 10 mins.

I think it is a bit in a core of whole ED gameplay here.

It's great to disagree with each other! If more posts here disagreed with discussion like this, rather than attacks - there would be a lot less nonsense going on!

I don't see this as a logical flaw - because as I expressed it's all about quality. I don't mind tasks that take a long time, if they are interesting. Playing for extended periods of time in a Resource Extraction Site is interesting to me, because it provides varied gameplay and I can affect the outcome, I can do this for hours and hours at a time and gain both credits and materials. I personally feel this is good gameplay.

Waiting for Brandy to spawn on a 10 minute timer, where I can only carry 10 units. This takes many hours of me doing nothing. I have no control over the outcome, and cannot affect the situation. Likewise, driving over a planet waiting for material treasure chests to spawn - I cannot affect the gameplay here either. I have no control over the outcome. In this situations I cannot interact with the gameplay - I am just sitting on a conveyer belt being carried along. For me personally this is bad gameplay.

So to address your point, I can engage in good gameplay for many hours. If it takes months to upgrade my ship whilst I engage in good gameplay, I am happy. However, if it takes me months to upgrade my ship by engaging in bad gameplay, this makes me unhappy.

 

[Kyokushin]

Here is my comment I posted on Kornelius' video. I'm going to repost my comment here, as it's relevant to the discussion:

-------------------
----------


Thanks for this video Kornelius! The huge requirement of player time, really is my biggest issue with The Engineers.

At the moment, there are a number of arguments in support of the current gameplay, some of these are as follows:

1) Many players are not burning through the content very fast! All is fine if you take your time.
2) Just play the game normally, eventually the materials you require will drop - and you can leisurely go to the Engineer and see what they have to offer.

Both of those arguments fail to address the real issue though.

For me, the real issue is the *quality* of gameplay - not the amount of it. I personally don't care how long it takes me to get an upgrade. If it takes me months to fully outfit a ship, then fine, I can accept that. But that's not the issue. The issue is the *quality* of the path to get to that upgraded ship. Unfortunately that path is loaded with time-sink upon time-sink.

Some games very cleverly mask their time-sinks. We all know they exist, but we put up with them because they are hidden behind an enjoyable game mechanic. However, the Engineer reputation system is not really a clever mechanic. It is very clearly a time-sink - in the most literal sense - and the Lavian Brandy is the perfect example of this. It is essentially a reputation system that is built upon a timer. There is zero gameplay, and nothing you can do to either interact with the system or change the outcome. You simply "wait 10 minutes" and then, when you have enough you move it from A to B, and then repeat the process for hour after hour. This is not "gameplay" by any sense of the word. It is "busy work" at best.

The materials and data collection also has the same underlying problem. There is very little you can do to affect the outcome of this system. Instead of being on a timer-system, it is instead on a random-distance system - whereby you drive around for an indeterminate amount of time waiting for a rock to spawn. Once it spawns, you have to hope the RNG system will allow it to contain the material you are after. As a player, we have no way to affect the outcome of this. We cannot use the skill we posses as players to affect this system. And we cannot use the "skills" of our in-game character, ship or SRV to affect this process. This is strange, because most games will use either player skill as a mechanic, or character skill as a mechanic to determine the result of in-game progress. Within Elite - that option is not present. A brand new player has the exact same SRV and ability to locate materials, as a player with 100 billion credits and thousands of logged hours. I'm not saying the rich guy should have it better because he is rich. I am saying that the rich guy should be able to use his in-game skill, experience and knowledge to affect outcome. Unfortunately he cannot. The only thing he can do, is to ensure he is on the correct planet. And that is the extent of it.

The crafting process itself being heavily RNG has caused a lot of debates. But put that system itself aside for a moment, and just think about the net effect. Firstly it is another system that a player cannot influence. We have no ability to affect the outcome, either with player skill or character (in-game) skill. Secondly, I personally feel this is one layer of RNG too many. The previous two paragraphs detail two processes that take huge player time investment. That investment can then be lost via a process you have no control over. For me, this really is too much.

And these three paragraphs that cover my three main issues with the update are not addressed in any form by the counter-arguments listed in points 1 and 2 above.

Point 3 however, would be: Just play the game and enjoy it. To that one I have no argument. If you can overlook these issues, then I wholeheartedly agree; just play the game and enjoy it.

Now, I entirely agree with your point Kornelius that Frontier mean well. I honestly believe they do mean well. And on top of that, we don't know what their future plans are, nor how The Engineers slots into all of that. I've also said many, many times that Frontier have built and exceptional game world with Elite. A truly fantastic galaxy, with awesome flight mechanics for the ships. I honestly love this game. It's at the top of my best games, easy. I also know you love the game Kornelius, else you wouldn't be asking for it to be improved, and you wouldn't be making these suggestions.

As a long time player and huge fan and supporter of Elite, I feel obligated to point out some of the huge flaws I personally perceive in the latest update. I think for me to either ignore them, or sweep them under the carpet would be hugely unsupportive of me. Like everyone else, I want Elite to be the best it can be. I'm not going to offer suggestions on what I think is better. I'm not a game designer so I can't offer much in the way of suggestions. Just as I am not a car designer, yet I can still get in a car and tell you if I feel it has a few problems here and there

There are clearly thousands of people enjoying The Engineers, but it seems there are many, many people that have huge problems with it. In fact, I have not seen a reaction from the community like this towards any of the previous updates. Maybe Frontier have the customers they want, and those people are happily playing the game. But in either event, I would be remiss not to give my feedback and hope Frontier are listening, and perhaps willing to make a few changes here and there.

I agree.
And the worst part is the all weekly efford you put in game could be lost by RNG casino at the end, and player need to start again from the beginning.

In my opinion the simplies and fastest way, the first step of improvements is make the main modified factor threshold more narrow. For example at FSD 5 grade i have 15-44%. It should be 40-45%, max 5% threshold on the crafted main factor.

Why? Because getting through the lotty over and over the same 15% result make a player frustration. getting 40 instead 45 he can eat, even a lot of cons (other factor) he can eat and he can correct them in future, however, he will get good fsd (40%), not the best and he will not feel frustrated.

The other factor could be random as they are.

 

[Badben]

All I have to say is that I really disagree with this video in many, many ways. This guy is saying FDev is wasting our time by making us grind for materials, I say Frontier is giving me a lot more to do in game by putting in an incredible crafting system that I will be occupied with for AT LEAST the next year. Upgrading ALL of my ships will take a long time, yes, but everything in this game takes a long time, that's kind of how the game works. I've been playing since march 2015 and I haven't gotten elite in anything yet, that's cool, I like that, this isn't a 60-80 hour game. Also, why are is he making piles of paper and huge spreadsheets, that is a MAJOR exaggeration of what needs to be done. I have made 0 spreadsheets and written nothing down, I am already at level 3 with 3 different engineers, and just recently unlocked 2 new ones. I feel I have progressed very well so far, and all I had to do was fly around and do a bunch of different stuff in game.

Next This guy goes on to insult David Braben, saying he's an eccentric old man with strange rules like only walking backwards on mondays. What is that supposed to accomplish, why make obviously made up, stupid lies about the man who's basically the backbone of the Elite series. This is the point I lost all interest in what this guy has to say, obviously he doesn't know what he's talking about. Don't insult the game developers.

I am not angry about having a limit of 600 materials, and this guys assertion that it makes no sense is beyond stupid. It makes perfect gameplay sense, it's a way of forcing you to prioritize what you collect to get the upgrades you need. Elite is a game that requires a little bit of skill and planning to reach your goals, they're not here to spoon feed us content like pretty much every other game out there right now. And to claim that Frontier just ignore their bugs is also ridiculous, the bug he's talking about is a known bug and Frontier has said they know about it and are already working on it. I know it can be frustrating, but a little patience goes a long way, soon enough it will be fixed and he'll forget all about it in a couple of weeks.

To top it off, the whole video is delivered in this awful, condescending tone that makes me want to puke. This guy makes it sound like he's just sooooooo much smarter than anyone working at Frontier, and that's usually a good indication that he really isn't.

Conclusion: 0 out of 10 stars for this video.

 

[House0fDerp]

As I said...with hammer...you got idea. If you will keep viewing like that...it will stay that way for you.

No, I don't have the idea. You're not really saying anything here. You're not even defending the idea that an increase in performance of a module changes fundamentally based on the word you use to describe it.

You aren't saying how your word makes the gains less relevant or desirable or why it's a good design to not make them a goal.

You're talking about hammers and nails while I'm talking about Elite.

 

[Alec Turner]

I can't decide whether it's the game itself that's starting to get me down or the constant drip feed of complaints on the forum over the last couple of weeks.

I'd been kinda hoping for some magic bullet from FD that would solve both of these problems but I'm beginning to suspect it won't happen.

Instead I should probably either a) take a break from playing the game or b) stop reading these complaint threads.

Ah well - weekend tomorrow.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

No, I don't have the idea. You're not really saying anything here. You're not even defending the idea that an increase in performance of a module changes fundamentally based on the word you use to describe it.

You aren't saying how your word makes the gains less relevant or desirable or why it's a good design to not make them a goal.

You're talking about hammers and nails while I'm talking about Elite.

You view this as one hit content...you upgrade and you done. That's why you keep poking holes in it. You refuse to view it otherwise. Which is fine. Just your POV isn't only one.

 

[House0fDerp]

I can't decide whether it's the game itself that's starting to get me down or the constant drip feed of complaints on the forum over the last couple of weeks.

I'd been kinda hoping for some magic bullet from FD that would solve both of these problems but I'm beginning to suspect it won't happen.

Instead I should probably either a) take a break from playing the game or b) stop reading these complaint threads.

Ah well - weekend tomorrow.

Go with b. It will help you get out and sort how you really feel about it. Helped me realize that for me the best way to handle the current incarnation of the feature is to ignore it for the time being.

 

[Iskariot]

Here is my comment I posted on Kornelius' video. I'm going to repost my comment here, as it's relevant to the discussion:

------------------- etc.

What to say.
I agree with everything you said.
Can't rep you more.

 

[House0fDerp]

You view this as one hit content...you upgrade and you done. That's why you keep poking holes in it. You refuse to view it otherwise. Which is fine. Just your POV isn't only one.

That a series of quite frankly incorrect assumptions. It's only as much "one hit" as the desire to improve and explore options is. And that rather deep at the moment potentially. Assuming you're willing to put up with what that demands of you.

The thing is, whether you're angry at it or ignore it the answer is still no, you aren't willing to put up with it as a stand alone mechanic.

So lets try to not read beyond what's written as it only shows bias rather than what's intended.

 

[Garbarrage]

Some reasonable points in that video. It's clear that there are bugs. I'm fairly certain that the 200 Lavian Brandy is a typo. It probably should have been 20 or something. It may seem like a simple thing to get right, but in a game as detailed as this, it's to be expected that little things like this slip through the net.

These threads would be much more palatable without hyperbole though. No, FDev are not "killing the game". Of course you're going to give FDev money (the next time they ask for it for an update dlc), and similar retorts to the various other impotently coercive posts.

One point though, I think these types of issues will affect certain types of players more than others. There are some players who are absolute completists. If there's content to be unlocked, it must be unlocked. Maybe it's a form of OCD or something. The impression I got from the lead in to 2.1, was that FD's intention was for you to arrive at the Engineers naturally. You may never unlock them all. There's a bunch of them. A sufficiently high number for me to balk at making it a grind to unlock and rep up with every one of them.

ED seems to actively discourage grinding imo. The method it uses, is to put such a large number of each thing in the game, that most normal people would simply decide to take it as it comes.

Unfortunately, they grossly underestimated some gamers' willingness to grind, and the drive of some players' completist OCD.

I wonder what would happen if they had made it so that you have unlock each one of the 400 billion systems. I'm certain that there would be at least one player, long past the bounds of sanity, drooling over a keyboard as I type, thinking to himself "One million four hundred thirty two thousand eight hundred and sixty one....".

Anyway, I'm sure this will get looked at shortly. The same way it would have gotten looked at without all the salt and baw and impotent threats of withdrawal of custom.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

That a series of quite frankly incorrect assumptions. It's only as much "one hit" as the desire to improve and explore options is. And that rather deep at the moment potentially. Assuming you're willing to put up with what that demands of you.

The thing is, whether you're angry at it or ignore it the answer is still no, you aren't willing to put up with it as a stand alone mechanic.

So lets try to not read beyond what's written as it only shows bias rather than what's intended.

It doesn't demand me anything at this point.

 

[Von Shadow]

+1 to the OP video.... We waited so long for 2.1 to come .... we played the beta .... we loved the mods, it made each ship feel unique and exciting
We were worried about the sheer quantity of fish we were burning through but hoped it was just beta balance and it would all be ok at the end...

Oh how wrong .... Crap like 200t of lavian brandy just to UNLOCK a single engineer .... insanity
I appreciate they didn't want 'pay to win' with commidities being purchasable ..... but staring at the massive lists / spreadsheets, juggling slots of materials and traipsing 1000's LY around carting stuff around to try and rank up a single engineer .... its tragic. Its not gameplay. It's not worthy of this game.

2.1 is Elite Dangerous - Spreadsheet Edition .... i didn't buy a lifetime expansion pack to support this kind of gameplay
I appreciate that everyone having their own notes about trade routes and odds and ends is fine .... but the sheer volume of info / combo is excruciating
I've lost all desire to play Elite outside of a weekly wing-up with a couple of friends for a couple hours RES'ing .... but when i sit at my PC and look at the launcher i feel at a loss now
I feel that all the massive massive fun i had in beta, tweaking a fleet of 7 ships to make each one a dedicated machine. It was fun .... i loved it, You guys at Frontier loved us creating insanity .... you encouraged it ... you pushed us on ... and the reality is so at odds with this for a large group of players..... i know that if i dedicated all my game time (assuming i played as much as i used to) to Engineers i'd still be staring at 3.0 before i had more than a few random mods

I don't see the problem in ditching the whole materials side of it or moving it all into black market making materials expensive (think Troa Barton suggested same)
Yes it favours the super-rich and those who play the most ..... but frankly so does RNG rolling of stuff and having to spend hundreds of hours gathering stuff... at least buying things makes it transparant

This is the 2nd major feature been introduced that was great in principal, grind in reality .... PowerPlay i'm talking to you...

2.1 has even rendered my dabbling in PowerPLay impossible since i used to spend time in RES near Shinrarta Dezhra but aligned to ALD .... now its shoot on sight in RES by agents etc ... so i left the powers
and have no intention of rejoining.

 

[House0fDerp]

It doesn't demand me anything at this point.

But it does, rep and/or blueprint materials. The only other alternative is not to participate.

How you get them is only irrelevant if you can do so without changing gameplay at all from pre 2.1. And that's not the case for me, hence my decision to ignore the feature.