FDev, just watch this video.

[Alec Turner]

Here is my comment I posted on Kornelius' video. I'm going to repost my comment here, as it's relevant to the discussion:

Class response from Obsidian as always - repped!

Just one slight addendum to make ...

2) Just play the game normally, eventually the materials you require will drop - and you can leisurely go to the Engineer and see what they have to offer.

Would that this were true. Unfortunately, until we have storage capability it doesn't really work. I'd been playing the game normally and had acquired a bunch of stuff for engineers along the way. Unfortunately I then decided I'd take my race stripped Imperial Courier over to Farseer and fit it out with some enhanced thrusters. Unfortunately than meant selling the Modular Thrusters I'd accumulated in my Python (since my racing courier has zero cargo).

Consequently I think point 2 above should actually read:

2) Just play the game normally, treat the Engineers bases as tourist spots to go and have a look at, but otherwise just ignore Engineering until, at the very least, module and commodity storage have been implemented.

Edit: oh, and re: my other point below ... I'll stop reading the forums tomorrow

 

[VR andysonofbob]

For me the engineers patch was all about the new visuals and the new mission mechanics; they're great!

The Engineers themselves are a big fat pile of grindy poo that I can't be bothered with.

Cool bases to mess about near though!

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

It's painfully funny how FD has a great game on their hands and ruin it with deus ex machina decisions to force you to play "their way"... Starting from Horizons beta and the 2km POIs, going with a cryptic SRV scanner, now in 2.1 with untargetable ground targets... See the trend here?
Now the same with engineers: you have 2 types of scanners on the ship. Use them for materials! Solve the dams cargo storage and materials limits! Is this too much to ask? Make the game more realistic and use logic, not some twisted rng mechanic...

You forgot skimmers that can direct a magical tactical nuke that only hits your ship when you ram them, leaving everything else untouched. All because we used a perfectly viable strategy they didn't like.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Waiting for Brandy to spawn on a 10 minute timer, where I can only carry 10 units. This takes many hours of me doing nothing. I have no control over the outcome, and cannot affect the situation. Likewise, driving over a planet waiting for material treasure chests to spawn - I cannot affect the gameplay here either. I have no control over the outcome. In this situations I cannot interact with the gameplay - I am just sitting on a conveyer belt being carried along. For me personally this is bad gameplay.

Agreed with your first post and this. The mechanics of finding these items need some sort of tuning in order to make them more engaging and give the player like there is some element of skill being used, even if there is some RNG at the end of it. I quite enjoy driving on planets and I like the randomness of it. I find it quite relaxing, but I imagine if you are directly going for something, then this just ends up being a frustrating exercise.

What's perhaps ironic is that many games don't give you the option of playing the game in two different ways to get the same end result.

FDev - a little more control over finding stuff owuld be nice imo.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Some reasonable points in that video. It's clear that there are bugs. I'm fairly certain that the 200 Lavian Brandy is a typo. It probably should have been 20 or something. It may seem like a simple thing to get right, but in a game as detailed as this, it's to be expected that little things like this slip through the net.

These threads would be much more palatable without hyperbole though. No, FDev are not "killing the game". Of course you're going to give FDev money (the next time they ask for it for an update dlc), and similar retorts to the various other impotently coercive posts.

One point though, I think these types of issues will affect certain types of players more than others. There are some players who are absolute completists. If there's content to be unlocked, it must be unlocked. Maybe it's a form of OCD or something. The impression I got from the lead in to 2.1, was that FD's intention was for you to arrive at the Engineers naturally. You may never unlock them all. There's a bunch of them. A sufficiently high number for me to balk at making it a grind to unlock and rep up with every one of them.

ED seems to actively discourage grinding imo. The method it uses, is to put such a large number of each thing in the game, that most normal people would simply decide to take it as it comes.

Unfortunately, they grossly underestimated some gamers' willingness to grind, and the drive of some players' completist OCD.

I wonder what would happen if they had made it so that you have unlock each one of the 400 billion systems. I'm certain that there would be at least one player, long past the bounds of sanity, drooling over a keyboard as I type, thinking to himself "One million four hundred thirty two thousand eight hundred and sixty one....".

Anyway, I'm sure this will get looked at shortly. The same way it would have gotten looked at without all the salt and baw and impotent threats of withdrawal of custom.

Well said.

 

[Sir.Tj]

Reading through the thread there are some excellent thoughts and ideas coming through.

I'm pretty sure the guys at FD will be here shortly.

 

[Moonax IRL]

I mean, it isn't like we didn't know Engineers was going to be a major grind coming in to this. Beta 1 gave us a glimpse before it started raining fish.

Do changes need to occur for the Engineers to be more appealing to me? Yes, absolutely...but there is so much outside of the Engineers that improves the game, it is easy to let that sit on the back burner.

True and I'm sure some issues will be addressed in the near future.

 

[piy]

Some reasonable points in that video. It's clear that there are bugs. I'm fairly certain that the 200 Lavian Brandy is a typo. It probably should have been 20 or something. It may seem like a simple thing to get right, but in a game as detailed as this, it's to be expected that little things like this slip through the net.

These threads would be much more palatable without hyperbole though. No, FDev are not "killing the game". Of course you're going to give FDev money (the next time they ask for it for an update dlc), and similar retorts to the various other impotently coercive posts.

One point though, I think these types of issues will affect certain types of players more than others. There are some players who are absolute completists. If there's content to be unlocked, it must be unlocked. Maybe it's a form of OCD or something. The impression I got from the lead in to 2.1, was that FD's intention was for you to arrive at the Engineers naturally. You may never unlock them all. There's a bunch of them. A sufficiently high number for me to balk at making it a grind to unlock and rep up with every one of them.

ED seems to actively discourage grinding imo. The method it uses, is to put such a large number of each thing in the game, that most normal people would simply decide to take it as it comes.

Unfortunately, they grossly underestimated some gamers' willingness to grind, and the drive of some players' completist OCD.

I wonder what would happen if they had made it so that you have unlock each one of the 400 billion systems. I'm certain that there would be at least one player, long past the bounds of sanity, drooling over a keyboard as I type, thinking to himself "One million four hundred thirty two thousand eight hundred and sixty one....".

Anyway, I'm sure this will get looked at shortly. The same way it would have gotten looked at without all the salt and baw and impotent threats of withdrawal of custom.

LOL.....+1.....I think I'm that guy /drool

 

[Barthok]

*snip* I don't mind tasks that take a long time, if they are interesting. Playing for extended periods of time in a Resource Extraction Site is interesting to me, because it provides varied gameplay and I can affect the outcome, I can do this for hours and hours at a time and gain both credits and materials. *snip*

...and that's the spirit! As long as you get entertained on the long trip you take, the way doesn't matter anymore. Personaly I think the people don't complaining about the game itself, they complain about the repetitive gameplay and the lack of ingame tools and possibilitys to make the way you go much more interesting and rewarding.

 

[Barking_Mad]

...and that's the spirit! As long as you get entertained on the long trip you take, the way doesn't matter anymore. Personaly I think the people don't complaining about the game itself, they complain about the repetitive gameplay and the lack of ingame tools and possibilitys to make the way you go much more interesting and rewarding.

David recently said on the live stream that they needed to do more with in game tools. I hope they can do so. Not a game designer but their original idea of a planetary surface scanner to give information would be really nice. However I know that's not something you knock out in the space of a few weeks, so as with most things we're probably going to have to wait.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Some bugs should have been spotted, that's fair comment. Others are hard to find because they are edge cases and perhaps only pop-up rarely. I had one myself that despite doing dozens of missions I had appear out of nowhere and has not been seen since. But a game in ongoing development is always going to have lots of bugs, especially one as complicated as ED.

What amazes me is posters like yourself who get so angry and express "hate". Dude, it's a game, go smell some flowers, have a beer, watch a sunset.

I got my hobbies to spend my time, dun worry about that. What does bother me, however, is delaying (wasting time) a patch for "quality" reasons and still releasing a patch that is a whole mess of bugs and problems and even missing essential features.
I bet the quality part was just pazching the game blockers which is an absolute no-go in every game. Blockers should not be present close to the original release date.

- Can't keep up with their own time limits
- Provide a low-quality release
- Doesn't seem to be bothered about that in addition

See if I can't even jump from super- to orbital cruise with a 100% frequency in Open Play and have to switch to Solo then quality is far, far away.
This is capitalism, play with the money of your customers and feel their rage since you don't take them seriously. Right now, Horizons should be for free.

 

[frostypaw]

And we cannot use the "skills" of our in-game character, ship or SRV to affect this process. This is strange, because most games will use either player skill as a mechanic, or character skill as a mechanic to determine the result of in-game progress. Within Elite - that option is not present. A brand new player has the exact same SRV and ability to locate materials, as a player with 100 billion credits and thousands of logged hours. I'm not saying the rich guy should have it better because he is rich. I am saying that the rich guy should be able to use his in-game skill, experience and knowledge to affect outcome. Unfortunately he cannot. The only thing he can do, is to ensure he is on the correct planet. And that is the extent of it.

This is simply not true and to me runs directly to the nub of why I've felt quite a bit grumpy at some of the long-term high-profile players reactions to all this.

These features have not been reviewed by these high-profile players as if they're a new player finding new mechanics with all the game world to play through - they've been reviewed as if this is a new season like a new chapter of Alan Wake and this is now "the thing you do". I don't particularly ascribe the blame for this to them, there's lots to be laid at FDev's door for overpromoting rare SFX and arming the NPCs to the teeth from day one, but these senior members bear some responsibility for how the game is presented and how new features come across (and I'm afraid I think they did ask for that responsibility by fanning the flames of their publicity, I don't mean to be nasty in any way saying that) and I don't really feel like they've given FDev a partcularly fair ride. Newer players haven't done the rest to death, they encounter all this very differently and we on the boards and the reviewers have probably played for far longer and more intensively than most. We have to remember our own viewpoint may be skewed.

There ARE certainly some buggy silly bits like the 200units of a slow-spawn rare, but this stuff has become minutae under a tidal wave of "GRIND GRIND GRIND" complaints substantially from people just chasing these upgrades - the original video in this thread being a case in point where it sounds like he's made it into a second job.

Then there's the requests of "i've got loads of money and played for hours therefore this should be easier" - but it kinda is.... and it's wonderful that as a long-term player people don't have an automatic advantage. Elite has never been an XP based game and what's being asked for here is exactly that. Getting better at finding mats on planets does get easier with practise, skill and interaction with friends just as could be hoped for from learning to drive the buggy better and quicker over more variable surfaces to developing search patterns coordinated from above, we are not helpless - but that's how it gets portrayed. Heck I've had people on this thread responding to me saying (i paraphrase) "what? materials are always the same on the same planets?" - clearly those watching these informative videos are not getting all the information. I suspect he doesn't know about the different distributions of nodule type by terrain type/area either.

There are some very valid points about storage, rarely found commodity based requirements, and overlap in the upgrades that can result in downgrades - but those points feel smothered underneath all the other complaints which often skip gaily over mechanics that are there and ways that already exist to find items - and it's all drowning in the rush to get them in any hurry and proclamations that there's nothing to do but grind grind grind. Might be great to put pressure on FDev, but is it helping the game?

Anyhow as FDev have said they want productive constructive helpful criticism so hopefully they'll filter the right bits out and not give up on the idea of this being a slow process.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Just watch it. Think it's time to take thought.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZYCDUDFPfE

I love listening to Kornelius' videos, its like listening to Pavel Chekov doing Elite Dangerous.

I do think he makes some valid points.... Some of them will be fixed in time one hopes, however perhaps it would have been wise to implement stuff like storage etc BEFORE engineers....

I can live with it for now and see what happens going forward, there do seem to be very obvious improvements which are plausible, and consistent with the game universe which i am stunned are not in however.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I got my hobbies to spend my time, dun worry about that. What does bother me, however, is delaying (wasting time) a patch for "quality" reasons and still releasing a patch that is a whole mess of bugs and problems and even missing essential features.
I bet the quality part was just pazching the game blockers which is an absolute no-go in every game. Blockers should not be present close to the original release date.

- Can't keep up with their own time limits
- Provide a low-quality release
- Doesn't seem to be bothered about that in addition

See if I can't even jump from super- to orbital cruise with a 100% frequency in Open Play and have to switch to Solo then quality is far, far away.
This is capitalism, play with the money of your customers and feel their rage since you don't take them seriously. Right now, Horizons should be for free.

Maybe the criticism I would give is that the game is too ambitious. Maybe they should have scaled down some of the content and concentrated on doing fewer things, better. But not knowing about specific ideas and the future it's pretty hard to tell. Right now there are problems, but your post drifts from fair points into hyperbole and baseless speculation.

 

[Wasp0]

Reading through the thread there are some excellent thoughts and ideas coming through.

I'm pretty sure the guys at FD will be here shortly.

But Will they T.J ? Or do you think the words Sand, Heads and Buried are more in line? I Dearly hope not as i Love this game and so want it to continue and get better?

 

[Darth Krayt]

I can live with the material requirements and have the advantage of having collected a fair amount of the very rare materials already since 2.0 because I was trying to get as many level 3 FSD boosts as possible which I've not used yet.
The real let down to me is that after having spent the time to gather the materials, the outcome can be potentially disappointing if you get a bad roll.
The only upgrades I really want are FSD upgrades and I don't know if I should try to go for this now or wait and see if FD make some balance changes. Once I have at least 1 FSD upgrade I intend to leave the bubble for some exploration until the next point release comes along. Some indication from FSD whether they are considering any balance changes to the engineers and a time frame would be useful.

 

[robbyp]

The OP makes some valid points.

Storage of materials/modules etc would be the way forward.

As in more in-game tools. Well they have finite developement time. Would you rather they spend that time replicating stuff we can easily do in Excel, or replicating Discord, or Trello etc? Or would you rather they spent the time doing stuff only they can do - adding to ED core. I know which one I will pick.

 

[Ranualf]

Even Kornelius is fed up with this trash, damn dude

Yep i am chewed off with it too.. and it has become "not fun"...

Give us the tools to succeed and make it less grind on the wheel for hours and hours and hour.. to get a RNG of fail... GHAA!

Fly safe and grind on..

 

[Gut Rumble]

So it's just a vid about how he's upset that he can't get his thrusters then LOL
.
I like they way he keeps using the terms " US" "WE" as if he's talking for everyone but him =P
.
It boils down too he can't get a permit for his "Much needed thrusters" so does a vid........just same as all others if you as me...ME ME ME

 

[frostypaw]

I can live with the material requirements and have the advantage of having collected a fair amount of the very rare materials already since 2.0 because I was trying to get as many level 3 FSD boosts as possible which I've not used yet.
The real let down to me is that after having spent the time to gather the materials, the outcome can be potentially disappointing if you get a bad roll.
The only upgrades I really want are FSD upgrades and I don't know if I should try to go for this now or wait and see if FD make some balance changes. Once I have at least 1 FSD upgrade I intend to leave the bubble for some exploration until the next point release comes along. Some indication from FSD whether they are considering any balance changes to the engineers and a time frame would be useful.

Please don't worry too much - it's not that bad.

I came back and sold a few 100kCr of explo date to Elvira, got straight to grade 2 - did a couple of upgrades entirely stuff I already had and one after having fun learning to mine for praesodymnium with a mate then was on stage 3. finding modular terminals took a little while but then 2 rolls later I'd gotten a top end tier 3 mod and i'm happy and done.

The probabilities aren't that punishing - out of the 6(?) things I've rolled for only one has been a 'fail' and it was still a slight upgrade. now I have a list of just two items which i'm looking for, and if i find them somewhere sometime I'll go back and do another module. It's far from painful if you've not done the whole spreadsheet shopping list OMG i have to find how many things and do what dance

 

[Barking_Mad]

But Will they T.J ? Or do you think the words Sand, Heads and Buried are more in line? I Dearly hope not as i Love this game and so want it to continue and get better?

If the request is to scrap engineers and replace it with something else, that's not going to happen. At the other end they can't radically overhaul it in a matter of weeks, so if big changes are requested or decided upon,m they will take time.